Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Hmm, when did I get here? Before TPM and before Vector Prime... Yep, that's some time ago.

    Actually K, getting the rank is all about likes, just keep racking them up and you'll get trophies, once you're over 100 points cue Grand Master rank!
  2. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    me thinks you're already working on it as we speak :p

    yeah it's wild how the time flies by.

    hmmm, the first one was a bit of a surprise kiss for Luke right ? The second one I have completely forgotten :confused:

    Exactly.

    perhaps but for the ST starting 40 years after ANH seems like an odd starting point for Episode 7. Maybe they like the idea of the Ones and might utilize them for the movies ?

    That's how I feel too, with Jacen I never got the feeling that he would ever best Luke because the Grand Master had 35 years of experience over Jacen's "new age" Force philosophy. Luke always had the upper hand
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Jan 1, 2013
  3. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Wow! Thanks! I will!!!

    Nah,, I have another one giving me gray hair that I need to get in shape first :(


    Not at all. He's 'surprise kissed' a lot in the Marvels - but with Jem, he seems to be perfectly active himself :p

    You think so? I've heard (even before the ST was announced) that he asked Mark Hamill back in the 70's if he was game on doing a sequel when he was around 60. I must admit, it's always been in my head since - and popped up every time we hear about Lucas veto against Luke dying....


    Exactly. I've been thinking in retrospect that It could have been ineresting to see what would have become of the EU if Lucas hadn't told them to get rid of Anakin. As I've heard it, it was Anakin who was supposed to "shine" at the end of NJO - but as they had to kill him, they instead pulled out his brother. I must say I never quite thought it worked - Jacen was too "extreme" in the first half of NJO to be convincing as 'heir'. So IMO it was a good idea to make him a villain. Good - but sad.

    But again - not enough against his uncle.
  4. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    [IMG]

    Ewww. Despite good advice, I still fail inserting images! Now I've tried both Flickr and Photobucket to set in the Luke & Jem romance - but with no luck. Anyone I can email the pics to and you could put them in?
    Last edited by kataja, Jan 2, 2013
  5. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    From all I've seen written of LOTF and its sequel, I'm not convinced the authors really wished to make Jacen into an out-and-out villain, there was just too much focus on his justifications and viewpoint for that to happen. And then there's FOTJ's retcons on Jacen's actions and that forever shifting image on the supposed Throne of Balance too.
  6. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    You're right. I meant 'villain' as more in 'opponent' - or 'antagonist', than 'evil person'.
  7. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Luke and Jem pix - posted on behalf of kataja:-
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Jan 2, 2013
    kataja likes this.
  8. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
  9. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    is it The Adventures of Luke Skywalker and the Feisty Red Head ? :p

    good memory there K and good find Tim, I completely forgotten about those two scenes. Perhaps to psychoanalyze the heck out of the scenes Jem and Luke had an instant attraction via the Force and Jem seem much more easier to converse than Mara at the time. But perhaps the easy path is not always the best path for life and love, sure Jem and Luke relate well with the Force but there similarities end there(aside for being heroic and self sacrificing). Also Luke certainly needed some emotional support after his struggles with Palpatine's influence. I would say maybe it was puppy love, but I don't believe it could have been a long lasting relationship.

    I have heard he has gone back and forth with the idea. I'm just hoping they're going anywhere from 1-20 years from RotJ as I felt there are some significant loose ends that need closure, firm establishment of the NR and its struggle to govern a war torn galaxy, Luke as a Jedi Knight, Luke starts to rebuilding the Order, the final defeat of the Empire, Luke becomes a jedi Master...gets married. I would imagine those plots could fill out Episode 7 and perhaps a bit of Episode 8 and then they can move into some more unexplored territory from Episode 8 and 9. The last two movies will probably establish the younger generation as central characters and in the last movie they probably will fight side by side with the Big 3.

    Anakin was foreseen as the next Skywalker to succeed Luke as Luke did to Anakin Sr. Still shocks me that no one allows Leia to shine despite her potential.

    Jacen was a pacifist in an unrealistic time, and considering he knows the jedi are moral when they fight you think he's harping over nothing.
  10. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    kataja:
    I never understood that either. This is LUKE SKYWALKER, Jedi Master, and he again looked like a naive wimp here. He was totally out of character, in my opinion. Now that I think of it, I haven't been all that thrilled with most of Stackpole's Luke portrayals either. Somehow, he always seems to have Corran come out looking superior to Luke, except in that one scene with the Jensaari in I, Jedi.










    Nobody145:
    That's for sure!



    I hate when authors degrade one character in order make another one look better.... especially when that degraded character is Luke.







    Jedi Ben:
    And I basically agree with this and think that Luke would still believe this too. However, once someone keeps refusing to listen and keeps going backwards, I think there comes a time when a person gives up, and I would think that would be true of Jedi too. Let's face it, Cade was pretty obstinate and uncooperative. He definitely gave the impression that he wasn't interested in listening or in changing. Is a Jedi obligated to keep trying forever to reach someone? I don't think so.
    The Jedi certainly eventually gave up on Jacen/Caedus when it was evident that he wasn't interested in changing.




    More another time!
  11. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    No offense, but I disagree with the idea that Jacen couldn't match up to Luke simply because Luke is older and has more experience. Otherwise what's the point of anyone younger ever challenging the more experienced? I don't think Jacen really came off as a worthy challenge either, mainly because he was an idiot and a jerk... and while I'm sad they gave a shipload of more angst, I'm not that sad to see him die, lost any interest in him during NJO (particularly the part where his whining distracted Anakin long enough to turn a victory into another defeat).

    If we had seen Jacen power up a bit more, show off some more of those rare techniques he picked up in his travels, actually see some of his training with Lumiya or from a Sith holocron or something, I could see a big showdown between him and Luke. Instead Luke has a clear advantage over Jacen during Inferno already, so for the rest of the series they just have inconclusive brawls until Luke is written out of the final battle.

    Lomi Plo and UnuThul gave Luke a big challenge, and we had to put up with Luke dealing with endless Tribe Sith during FotJ, the power gap between Luke and the rest of the galaxy isn't as big as I'd prefer. But then that's the problem with having someone that supposedly powerful. Either they never fight, as with Yoda in the prequel era as otherwise Yoda would demolish everyone, or they just have inconclusive fights that end with one of the other fleeing (which also happened a lot with Count Dooku in the prequels). There are ways around this, such as having an entire war going on for someone like Luke to be busy fighting but since the novels haven't bothered to do the setup required for a conflict of that scale again (since LotF's war and FotJ's conflict just start up suddenly, happen mostly off-screen and end suddenly too) their inability to find the proper place to put Luke without either weakening him or making him look inactive is all the more blatant.

    Homages to the movies are great and all, some of the best works include obvious or subtle references like that, but trying to rip off the somewhat unpopular prequels is not the best strategy. Even moreso with how they skip the eventual happy ending of the OT, since unlike Anakin Skywalker, Jacen just dies, unredeemed. They try throwing in something about Jacen focusing on his daughter at the end "redeemed" him or made him "Jacen" again instead of Darth Caedus, but... its really weak. And then FotJ muddied the waters even more by implying Anakin Skywalker's failure to take up the Father's role in maintaining balance doomed the galaxy, eventually leading to Jacen unleashing Abeloth and Luke having to deal with her for who knows how long.

    Not sure what direction they're going with Jacen. He was the sort of the main character of LotF, his fall and then he kept falling, but he died and that's usually that, now they've added Abeloth to his mistakes. He didn't intend that part, and when Luke encountered Mara and Jacen beyond shadows in Abyss, I thought that was one of FotJ's few good parts, that he's dead already so while he's still smug, he's not going mwa-ha-ha. Although Luke can't quite greet him warmly, given what he did and how personal it was, though Luke forgave Vader, but in Apocalypse we don't even really see most of Luke and Jacen's conversation... unless it was meant to be that abrupt, its hard to tell what is just incomplete or is left as foreshadowing.

    While I wasn't really happy with Jacen ending up as the next leading hero by the end of the NJO, at least he had stopped whining and seemed more in line with the rest of the Jedi now instead of being the guy to disrupt important moments. Of course DNT then went in the complete opposite direction, with Jacen withdrawing completely from the NJO to go off on his own and when he came back... that's when all the problems began. Not even many references to how he trained Ben.

    Ben's sudden leap in ranks and importance also still irks me, aside from his personality (sorry, still not my favorite). Going from Jacen's apprentice/personal assassin to Jedi Knight just seems fast, the dramatis personae list him as such, I think? Jaina and the rest of her generation were already acting as Jedi Knights during the Vong War as it was needed and there wasn't really time for a proper Knight ceremony, they don't really have that excuse with Ben, but guess they're just rushing his development along since even they can't have Luke in two places at once and most of the time the heroes consist of Luke and Ben and nobody else, not like there's a whole Jedi Order Luke almost single-handedly rebuilt that's stuck on Coruscant.

    Oh by the way, hope this isn't too big a spoiler, but no Luke in Scoundrels outside of a few vague references, so if you're hoping for that, sorry. If you want a good Star Wars story, I highly recommend it though.
  12. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Jacen Solo is a man who took a woman's head and used the Force to drive it into a table over and over until she died. He was not just a villian, he was the villian in the LOTF series.

    FOTJ certainly muddles this, if we are meant to take those pool visions seriously.
  13. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Er, you've come out with some wacky stuff every now and again COW but seriously?

    You're claiming there's no difference between Cade and Darth Caedus?

    And yet Robi I've lost count of the "Jacen was right" threads despite the event you describe taking place in only the second book of the series!
  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    =D= Have to say this is perhaps the best formulation of the problem I have with Jacen in NJO!
  15. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Is there a reason why you believe that Jacen could have match Luke so early in his Force career ? Perhaps after 15-20 years later but aside of the Oneness moment in TUF(which wasn't of his own doing as he admits himself), there weren't many moments where Jacen demonstrated exceptional abilities...DN had a few moments where he show off a bit but for all his new tricks it didn't tip the odds. I'm not saying Jacen wasn't clearly the #2 of the NJO which is pretty impressive by itself but 5 years of learning from other sects isn't that big of a deal when Luke had met most of those sects years prior and still had 25 years under his belt.

    As for experience and youth, I think the fact that most of the time experience will beat youth 9 times out of 10 is why it's relevant.(Vader and Obi-wan ROTS) For those rare exceptions like Luke beating the Emperor or Anakin vs Tyrannus, sure aptitude and natural ability also are a factor. I'm not saying aptitude and natural ability doesn't have any weight but even there Jacen is at a disadvantage, his strong point isn't at duels where Luke is a duel savant. Aside of "new" Force abilities he learned Jacen didn't have much to challenge Luke with. When it came down to Force powers, there were a few that the elder jedi had not experience before. The fact that Jacen could not break Luke's telekinetic grip when prepared or not pretty much highlights that Jacen was not on Luke's league.

    also there seems to be a theory floating around these boards that Jacen doesn't have say the full potential of Luke/Anakin/Leia.....I don't necessarily believe that but it's something to ponder on.

    Thanks, they probably added this dynamic to Jacen for some "drama" but the subplot to the character is rather dumb when he participated in a good majority of the battles. He comes off as a hypocrite, one that you want to smack some sense into. How many times did he witness his own family fight with morals while the enemy did not ?!?!??! :mad: It seems the handle on the character went all over the board when you compare him from the earlier half to NJO to the latter, to DN, to LotF, and finally FotJ. He goes from being a thoughtful youth, to an impatient apprentice to a self righteous pacifist, to a prisoner of war, than he becomes interesting as the focus subtly shifts to him after Anakin dies. He becomes more rounded to some degree then DN makes him more greyish in his outlook and Betrayal has him jump the shark straight to the Dark Side.(I never really care for Vergere's philosophy that much) From there he becomes either a cunning mastermind, a mad dog, a regretful sod, or all of the above then he dies to become even more of a jerk in the afterlife who lies at every tum similar to his old bird master.

    In comparison to Luke's portrayal over the years we as Luke fans have little to complain about but then again that says a lot about the current atmosphere with the books :rolleyes:

    the fact that Jacen "play with the future" gave those threads all the fuel and fire needed to keep that idea afloat far longer than anyone intended.
  16. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    Jacen WAS a match for Luke. Jacen was born with complete awareness of the force, while Luke did not really begin that journey till he was 18. Jacen had broad training and instictively grew in the force very quickly. Was Jacen as powerful as LUke? Not quite, but he would have been more powerful than Luke given a few more years
    SiouxFan likes this.
  17. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    when was he was a match for Luke ? if you're talking about the duel in Inferno. Luke fought recklessly and with anger(i.e. not at his best) yet he still had Jacen for the kill, hardly a match. also if we go with that basis that the Solo kids were aware in the Force then Anakin Solo was even greater than his grand father. Force potential doesn't increase with each successive generation.

    also being aware of your abilities at an early age doesn't make you more powerful or potentially powerful. Sidious could do a great many things before being trained in the ways of the DS yet he wasn't more powerful than what the Skywalkers could be.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Jan 3, 2013
  18. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    I've come into the SOS for another beat-down:

    I find it interesting that this forum excuses mediocre to bad decisions Luke makes as simply 'bad writing' or that he was 'misunderstood' yet we insist that Jacen being a jerk when already dead is because he was just that way. Luke gets a pass, yet Jacen doesn't? Does anyone see the inconsistency?

    As to why the 'Jacen was right' threads keep coming up is because there are people like me who fail to see how Luke had planned to find an end to the Corellian crisis.

    Do we become the enemy to fight the enemy? This is the question that Jacen was trying to answer. Luke himself was unwilling to fully advocate the Jedi using force in NJO until later in the war, and had heated arguments with Kyp about it. Is this not similar?

    I've mentioned this before, but what I find incredibly interesting is that I would get less flak for saying I was a huge fan of Palpatine than I do for saying I am a fan of Jacen Solo. Does anyone else think this odd?
    Last edited by SiouxFan, Jan 3, 2013
  19. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    not to have another Jacen debate, especially on this particular thread but dude did you not read my post above JM's ? I basically stated that the handle of the character had been all over the map


  20. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Yes, I DID read it. My apologies, I simply misread what you were trying to get across. My final question stands, however. Why does Jacen Solo p*** so many people off? Why do many of us still view him as worse than Palpatine? Why has he become a pariah to almost everyone?
  21. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    too many factors, but mostly it goes to the mishandle of the character in Del-Rey's hands. He came off such a high point after TUF only to become an inconsistent villain that we hate(and sadly not cause we love to hate him) and he goes on to kill another beloved character out of the most bizarre reasons. Then the final nail in the coffin is FotJ which goes on to further discredit or retcon Jacen actions that we just read about in LotF......:rolleyes:

    it's this type of direction by Del-Rey that has cause fans to be tired of any stories involving Han, Leia, and Luke in the Legacy era. Frankly most of us if not all of us are jaded regarding the Legacy era books.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Jan 3, 2013
  22. JediMara77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    I don't. Palpatine is an awesome, if evil, character. I love to hate him. Jacen just wants to make me bang my head against the wall. (And yes, I do blame the authors/editors for derailing him.)
  23. SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Jaded doesn't even begin to describe it. What is even more disgusting, to me, is that I don't see a way out of this mess. I had to laugh at the 'preview' for Crucible, something about being the three of them 'finding something that will shake them to their core' (I'm paraphrasing A LOT). Really? Mara was killed by her nephew and Jaina killed her brother. What could possibly worse than that? I just want to yell: 'Dude, your in a hole, quit digging.'

    A Luke question, if I may: When did the GrandMaster title come into play? Was it Dark Nest? I ask because I've always had problems with the title. I always viewed the Jedi as being a sort of 'Knights of the round table' sort of order. I get that someone needs to be the key arbiter in case of a 'tie' vote, but this title seems a bit...arrogant. I can't be the only one who thought this title to be a bit too close to 'Grand Wizard'.
  24. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Preaching to the choir my friend. ;) the first mention of the title came in one of the Clone Wars books, Dark Rendezvous. Yoda was the first Grand Master we were aware of at the time. The Swarm War is where Luke took the role begrudgingly since his council still has a lot of growing up to do.
  25. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    Luke himself called Jacen a "Massively Powerful Force User". Given ten more years or maybe even less he would have surpassed Luke. Now i agree. Anakin Solo would have been the most powerful force user in history in another two decades if he would have lived.