Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Well, i'm finally back. I just finished re-reading Shadows of Mindor the other say, and I have to day it's still one of the best portrayals of Luke in my opinion. As a novel that's set earlier in his life, it's interesting to see how a lot of groundwork is laid for the character's later exploits and personality. I love the entire journey he goes throughout the novel, first starting with him facing extreme doubt about his role in life and the path should take. It's set only about a year after Truce at Bakura, so while I would've enjoyed it I like that Luke's not necessarily at his prime/peak yet here. You don't see him making some of the massive displays of Force Power he will in later years, and at the same time along with that doubt I mentioned earlier there's a feeling that a lot of what he's doing is instinct, highlighting just how rushed his training was.

    Each of his confrontations with Cronal play out just as you'd expect. He's an old, frail man to be sure, but then so was Palpatine. Cronal has decades more experience than SoM Luke, who's really nothing more than a greenhorn at this point. In both knowledge and experience he doesn't have a chance of matching Cronal, and he doesn't try. However, while he's overwhelmed by Cronal's power at first, he's able to draw back on simple truths that he's learned over his own life, and his own core beliefs, to counter it. He doesn't attain victory by outmatching Cronal in power, but by overcoming the darkness with the light, and the novel perfectly threads this kind of theme throughout.

    I cited Truce at Bakura earlier not only because it took place not long before this novel, but because Luke comes to key realizations in both novels that again shape his future self into the Grandmaster we see in YJK, NJO, and Post NJO. In TaB, he realizes that the Dark Side can't just be denied once and then never felt again. It must be faced each and every day of one's life. In SoM, he realizes the strength of the darkness (Or comes across a different aspect of it), gains a greater understanding of the universe and himself, and discovers more of his place in the Force. He faces the darkness, fears it, learns about it, and comes to accept it, and is in the end able to stare straight at it without flinching, overcoming his fear. This undoubtedly leads to this wonderful exchange at the end of the novel:

    Kar Vastor: I have known Jedi. Many, many years ago. That knowing was not a gladness for me. I believed I would never know another, and I rejoiced in that belief. But it is a gladness for me to be proven wrong. I am happy to have known you, Jedi Luke Skywalker. You are more than they were.

    Luke: That's...I mean thanks, but I barely known anything.

    Kar Vastor: So you believe. But I say to you: you are greater than the Jedi of former days.

    Luke: What makes you say that?

    Kar Vastor: Because unlike the Knights of old, Jedi Luke Skywalker...You are not afraid of the dark.

    Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, pg 356-357



    It's really one of the main purposes of the novel, to show more of Luke's growth as a Jedi, and I think it surely succeeds in doing so. Most importantly, his growth isn't really one of power. It's one of knowledge and wisdom (Which of course is power) and I like that the difference between him and the prequel era Jedi is noted so strongly here at the end of things. Throughout the first part of the novel it's noted that no longer has a sense of certainty from the Force. He usually just knows what he should do, but at the start of the novel he doesn't (Strictly as it related to whether or not he should accept the promotion to General) ,and he isn't hearing from Ben as often anymore, making this something of a coming of age story for Luke. (And actually a little similar to Jacen's journey in Traitor) Stripped of all sense of certainty and guidance from his mentor, he's left alone to confront the darkness, and he overcomes it, and in doing so manages to surpass the Jedi of the past.

    Very good novel.
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  2. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Darth Jensari

    I would love there to be more books following Luke's early years as a knight and jedi master....especially any reason for him to cut loose.

    Yeah they bear a lot of similar characteristics, the same applies to Captain America as well. I recently saw the Christopher Reeve films and I couldn't help but notice their similarities with being cool under pressure, never giving up, and generally being friendly. With that in mind I look forward to the new Man of Steel movie.

    hope and humor is one of the reasons why the OT was memorable.

    well I imagine from a financial perspective there would be a much more guarantee with more people in the theaters if they included memorable characters from the OT ;) Plus if it's any consolidation Vader was featured significantly in all six movies...perhaps that'll be the trend for Luke and co.

    agreed, Lumiya was super prepared but it wasn't til Luke's wife was in danger that she really took the upper hand in the battle. The problem though is two duels later we don't see how events truly would have play out in a straight up duel.

    well Abrams and Ardnt seem like they would include that in the story.

    I don't remember him being uncontrollable angry but I do think he was peeved.

    he looked bad but it wasn't as severe as his time with the mind drinkers.
  3. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    DarthJenari:
    Welcome back, DJ!


    Yes, I thought that Luke was written well in Mindor too!


    But also, I think, it shows just how resourceful, intuitive, and quick to learn Luke is.


    Great point!

    Nicely put!


    I really liked that comment! I'm not sure it holds true for some of the later EU though.


    Yes, I agree. Again though, it's sad that there seems to be some regression or at least much inconsistency in this in later EU stories.

    I truly hope that when we get to see the ST that we will find this to be true there too, that there will be a huge difference between Luke and his Jedi and the Jedi of the prequel era. I don't want them taking babies from their families and not allowing those families to see their children. The prequel Jedi were sort of apart from the regular Joes and Janes of the galaxy, sort of living in their own ivory towers. I want Luke and his Jedi to mingle with regular folk and work with them. And, unlike the prequel Jedi, I'm hoping that Luke and his Jedi marry and have families.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    Exactly! The prequel films and much of the Del Rey EU seems to have forgotten that! So many of the Del Rey fiction is so pessimistic, tragic, negative, and dreary.


    I hope so!


    I got the impression that Luke was FURIOUS.

    Mind drinkers? Do you mean mind walkers? Walking beyond shadows?
  4. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    They are called Mind Drinkers as well.

    anyway i think Luke is finally getting back to how he was when kar vastor said what he said. But there were times in the eu where Luke was afraid of the dark
  5. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    meh i am sure Prequel Order mingled with commoners more in the early days some of the rules and crap in the PT is just what happens when your institution lasts a long time.
  6. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I think the books have gone way and beyond anything in the PT at this point with pessimism....and when you hear the summary of the Legacy era this being Luke's era you would think it would be a golden age....full of peace but that doesn't mean there isn't a scuffle or conflict every now and then. And that would be reason enough for Luke to flex his muscles every so often ;)

    too bad we got LotF and FotJ :rolleyes:

    probably, but as a new father I would be too.

    whatever the heck they were called.....weirdos is what they are :p In seriousness JM is right they were called a few things.
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  7. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    JediMatteus :
    Ah! Okay! Thanks!

    Yes, I agree.








    Skaddix:
    That's probably true... They certainly weren't bad people. They had just gotten a bit stale and stagnated and were taking things forgranted. They had gotten too complacent and weren't growing anymore, it seemed.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    Definitely! They've lost the hopeful message and the optimistic feeling that I think should be a part of SW.

    Well, in a galaxy that big, I can understand that there would be problems here and there now and then, but there shouldn't be major, galaxy-shattering problems and there shouldn't be new huge, terrible galactic wars every three years! And I really wanted Luke, Han, and Leia to be instrumental in ushering in a new golden age because of all of their efforts and sacrifices. By the time Luke was in his early 60's, I was certainly expecting that there would be a time of relative peace; the New Republic would be stable; and the Jedi would be flourishing. I certainly was NOT expecting, nor did I want, a war involving two huge groups of Sith and Abeloth like we got in Apocalypse! :mad:


    To the point that Mara looked like the calm voice of reason in comparison. Luke was almost not functional, that's how angry he was... Does that sound like Luke to you?


    very true!
  8. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    conflicts, uprisings, crime, and occasional skirmishes sure that's fine. You also need to have some adventure in the galaxy like the unused Unknown regions....but Legacy era needs to stop the ongoing wars nonsense.

    we had enough since 1999 and it's now 2013 and we hardly had any peaceful adventure stories during that time frame. This tires out your audience.

    agreed...I wouldn't mind an occasional big bad now and then so Luke flexes his muscles but not in every book series like we been getting. Heck even when there is a big bad we still don't get to see Luke use his power and his creative/resourceful use of it as we should.

    ok have to agree with you, that sounds suspiciously from Sacrifice as well or it could be Bloodlines.
  9. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah there is too many wars. They don't even have time to rebuild or recover before the next one comes.
  10. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  11. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Star Wars authors discuss what they want to see in the ST

    It reminded me of this thread because Troy Denning is among those asked. In addition with what they want to see, they were asked "how they want Luke, Han and Leia to die". Glad to see most believed that they should live to old age. Still, Denning's response is... interesting. Judge for yourself.

    "I’d want to see Luke go fairly early, in an incredible display of Jedi power that saves his companions and/or deals the villain a real setback. And I’d want his sacrifice to become a rallying point for the good guys. I’d want him to become more dangerous to the villain in death than he was in life.
    Han and Leia should go out as a team, executing a cunning trick that sets the villain up for a hard fall. I wouldn’t want a lot of on-screen sentimentality, just a sense of courageous self-sacrifice from Leia and, from Han, a smug smirk. But as the final moment comes, I'd want to see them together — holding hands or leaning in for a final kiss — because that's who these characters are, two people in love to the last."

    So... I guess points off from you guys because he wants Luke to die, but points for wanting him to go out in a display of power?

    That said, you guys will love what John Jackson Miller has to say.

    " It's something I've speculated about since I first saw them mentioned in Lucas's Time magazine interview back in 1980. My presumption would be that, obviously, it jumps ahead a generation, matching the gap between the other two trilogies — and I would assume that it takes on the larger themes of the ongoing series: power and temptation. My assumption was always that Luke, not Anakin, was really the "chosen one" who brought "balance to the Force" — but as those lines weren't in the original trilogy, they could also take this opportunity to bookend that section by addressing it anew."
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 14, 2013
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  12. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Ok here is my two cents, JJM's opinion is spot on and I'm hoping Ardnt and Abbrams take it to account. As this follows mostly what JB speculated for the new trilogy and would be a great way of reaffirming Luke's importance. Now for Denning, it strikes me as hypocritical that he would want the Big 3 to die on screen when not too long ago he didn't want them to die in the books. Luke dying in a blaze glory at this point or just dying would be a cliche. It's probably the most expected way of passing the torch to the new characters. While him displaying a grand display of the Force near his death would be nice to see it would only be a superficial win in the grand scheme of things as the next time we would see him would be a Force spirit, which would be limited. Who were the authors that wanted Luke alive ?
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Feb 14, 2013
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  13. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Allston on the Big 3's fate: How I Want to See Luke, Han, or Leia Die: You know, I actually don't want to see them die in the movies, and it's not just because of affection for the characters.
    Action movie characters live pretty tortured lives. There's no chance of them appearing on-screen for 90 minutes of shopping or gossip, so any time we put them in front of the camera, it's for punishment. At a certain point, we recognize there's no way they can keep doing this and survive, so we kill them, an act so common and callous we don't even refer to it as killing them — it's "killing them off." Ellen Ripley. Bernard Quatermass. Hoban "Wash" Washburne. Sometimes characters die because their portrayers can only show up for one or two day's filming, and the director and producer decide to maximize those three minutes of screen time by whacking the character.
    Me, I'm all for having Luke, Leia, and Han be in a scene showing them knocking back shots of Corellian brandy while playing cards. Then the screen can go through a 1940s-style wipe and the camera can zoom in on their descendants saving the galaxy for a new generation.




    JJM'S take: How I want to see Luke, Han, or Leia die: I'm certain that I don't want to see that — it's much more fun to imagine them living on. It would be preferable to think that they died while sitting on a beach drinking blue martinis delivered by serving droids — but I imagine that's not very cinematic! Why hasn't JJM written a Luke book ?
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  14. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86:
    I completely agree!



    It certainly tired me out and frustrated me.


    Yes, and as you said, even when there was a terrible villain, we often didn't get to see Luke use his powers and resourcefulness to defeat that villain. In fact, Luke didn't get to take out Jacen/Caedus, and he really didn't get to end the threat of Abeloth or the thousands of Sith. lt's been very annoying to have no true victories for Luke.


    Yes, you guessed correctly: It was in Sacrifice... again in the very book in which Mara died, and we didn't get to have any good scenes between Luke and Mara.








    Skaddix:

    Yes, and that's very unsatisfying.





    instantdeath:
    Thanks for sharing that, ID. It was very interesting.



    I really don't want to see Luke "go fairly early" even in an "incredible display of power" that saves others. I want to see Luke as the wise mentor. I do also want to see him get a chance to show that "incredible display of Jedi power", but I don't want to see him die during it. I want to see Luke survive the films. That would not only be satisfying, but it would give us an unexpected ending. Too often we see the mentor figure killed off soon and the young apprentice on his/her own. I want something more surprising and satisfying than that.

    After all Luke has been through, he deserves a LONG life and a peaceful death of very old age among friends, family, and Jedi.

    Just points off for wanting to kill Luke off, as far as I'm concerned. What is it about Denning that he has no problem killing off major characters??????? It does confirm to me that he isn't much of a Luke fan.



    Yes, I like that response. I agree that it makes far more sense for Luke to be the chosen one who brought balance to the Force. He, after all, never fell and spent his life destroying the Jedi Order and terrorizing the galaxy. Luke restored the Order that his father helped to destroy.

    I really liked the following which JJM also said,
    I too hope we get to see them live on...



    I liked what Drew Kalrpyshyn said too. Here was his quote about the Big Three:


    I very definitely agree with him!!


    I liked this quote from Christie Golden too:




    I didn't like this comment from Allston though:
    I disagree. How can you have a sequel trilogy that is part of the Skywalker Saga without Skywalkers???? (and Solos?) And as far as I'm concerned, it's the Jedi that make Star Wars unique. Without them the film could be a part of any other science fiction/fantasy universe.


    However, I do agree with him about this:


    I also very much agree with him about this:

    Amen!








    MasterSkywalker86:
    Yes, I agree.

    Yes, that's the way I feel too.

    That's an excellent question. I would really love to have JJM write a Luke story! I loved the way that he wrote Zayne Carrick, and I think Zayne is a little like Luke in some ways. So, I think he would really do a great job with Luke.
  16. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Right....when was the last time we were actively excited for a new book with Luke in it ? The constant war and disappointment have left a bad taste in our mouths for far too long. That needs to be fixed.

    right even there we didn't get a proper opportunity for Luke to defeat the enemy in LotF and in FotJ it was merely a delay and a lame teamup.

    agreed...killing off Luke is cliche at this point, just so the new generation could take over. Both the new and old generations should work together instead of wiping out the characters that we enjoyed and haven't seen in action since RotJ...in fact I would imagine Episode 7 would have to be the movie to introduce us to the new gen, in Episode 8-9 they gradually get the new cast involve. By Episode 9 I imagine Luke would pass the torch to the new gen but he would go on to lead,mentor, and go on the occasional adventure full time.

    here here =D=

    JJM makes a valid point.

    Agreed. I only read the first 8 volumes of KOTOR but he definitely captures the essence of Luke.
  17. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    @DarthJenari - love your excellent review on this novel!!! And that quote is really superb! As I see it,this shows why Luke's Order wouldnt repeat some of the fauls of the Old one!

    I just read this page before cing backhere! I think all these writers had nice points - better than the quetions, actually, as the how-should-they-die question was bot predicatable and annoying! Nice to see most of them seemed to see Luke in the center of the plot! I don't think it's quite fair to say tha those who answer the quesion "how should Luke & co die," wants Luke & co to die. They answer a question - a few of them answer it by opposing it - but that doen't mean those who don't, are clapping their hands.

    Hmm... I can't agree on that. The ST is the most awaited movie (or set of movies) ever in motion picture history! For Luke to die in it, might be predictable - but definitely different that letting him die in some random novel! I've always expected him to die in the ST - and seeing the PT, the OT and ST as a a cycle it would be very fitting to see him be born in the first, reach manhood in the next and die in the last. Partcilaly as I expect them to return with other movies where we can see him "use his licence to kill". Hopefully also movies where we see him live a happy life! But IMO, if we're to follow Luke's story to end - it is here where it' should end!
    Last edited by kataja, Feb 15, 2013
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Corran's speech about "facing the Dark side- and walking away" in I, Jedi seemed similar- every time one makes the choice not to abuse one's power when it would be very easy to do so- that's resisting the Dark Side.
    kataja likes this.
  19. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Of course, he then finds subsequently that actually tangling with the dark side is a far more perilous undertaking than he ever expected!
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    True- not every temptation is as obvious as the ones he gave as examples.
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Personally, I like to see it as the difference between the mundane evil he encountered as a cop figure, unaware that there's something a damn sight nastier out there that he isn't equipped to deal with. And that's Corran's attitude effectively at the Academy, he doesn't seem to think there's much for him to learn, that he's got what he needs, it's only after he nearly loses his soul to the dark side that he accepts there is much he does need to learn.
  22. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Hmm....[face_thinking] Now I have to disagree with your disagreement of a topic we usually agree on except when we disagree..... 8-} er...something like that :p From my perspective even if they continue Luke's story via animated movies/series, it still won't be as big as a live action movie with Luke. For that they must take the greatest of care. As films usually go they only have one shot in getting it right especially when it comes to the theater, and seeing an iconic character in cinema die isn't a necessary way to end their story.The Man with No Name usually ends off riding into the sunset, Aragorn in LotR ends up king and eventually marries the love of his life, and Harry Potter ended up having a family. I think right now especially with the hardships these past years we should get a happy ending for Luke and co., a message that motivates us to go on and endure as tomorrow brings a brighter day.
  23. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    I'll respond to the other posts tomorrow. For now, I just wanted to say that I FINALLY finished Choices of One!!!!

    In restrospect, I would have to say that I did enjoy the story. It had some twists and turns, and I do like Mara and that Stormtrooper group. However, as far as Luke goes, it was pretty terrible.

    While he didn't seem to be quite as naive and clueless as he was in Allegiance, he didn't really accomplish anything in this book either. I also agree with Kataja that Luke's character didn't behave the way I would expect him to behave at this point. Not only should he still be carrying a blaster since he really isn't very proficient with a lightsaber, but I think he also should have gone in to try to save the governor's family much sooner.

    I remember that Luke was thinking that Leia and Han would probably not follow the instructions and would have gone in to try to help them, while he did wait. But I think Luke would have gone right in too. Look at how he wanted to go to rescue the Princess right away on the Death Star. Look at how he tore off and went back home to try to help Owen and Beru when he figured out that the stormtroopers probably went there. It would be in Luke's nature to rush off to try to save them.

    I was disappointed that Luke wasn't allowed to actually accomplish anything again. Why did it have to be Mara who rescued the governor's family? She had already done quite a few things in the book. It annoys me that Luke wasn't given one really useful thing to do. Everyone else had major accomplishments, from Mara to Han to Leia to Wedge to those stormtroopers to Pelleaon to Thrawn. But not Luke.

    Mara even threw Luke her blaster because he was closer to the Governor's wife and daughter, but it still ended up being Mara who saved the day. For this Luke fan, even though the story itself was entertaining, this book was very disappointing because again we got pretty much nothing from Luke. He was also on extremely few pages really. It was especially annoying since the back cover says, "The fate of the Rebellion rests on Luke Skywalker's next move. But have the rebels entered a safe harbor or a death trap? " Definitely false advertizing!:( :mad:
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    COW,

    Now is the time to read the HTTE 20th Anniversary edition, why?

    1. Crisis of Faith novella picks up where Choices of One left off and ties up that hanging thread.

    2. Choices of One really acts as a support for the notion of Mara's force ability being artificially boosted by Sidious! Reading HTTE again, in the wake of CoO only amplifies that effect.

    Don't really consider either Allegiance or CoO to be Luke books though.
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  25. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Exactly. And one of the good Karen Traviss moments was in Revelation when she had Ben reflect that this is what his father's doing; again and again and again and again!

    Exactly. And I guess it's one of I, Jedi's qualities that it gives us Corran from both sides. [face_plain] Personally, I just get tired of him before we see the other side.o_O

    I follow completely, Master. :p


    I still follow you. I just don't think this is the path ST will take. While Luke is, and will always be, MY Star Wars raison d'etre (reason for existing), I pretty firmly believe that with the ST, SW will move away from the Luke centric/Anakin centric dispute. I think a new generation will be in focus - thus finally establishing SW a multi-generation epic - and only after that, will they come back and tell Luke's story (and in that either following or going against the EU). I think we'll get a cornucopia of new SW stories - but I think the trilogies will form the cornerstones, thus occupying a special place. Just like the movies have had so far in the EU.

    And since we only guess, but none of us know, it's not really much to argue about, save that our perspectives change a lot depending the fixpoint. Of course I agree that main characters can ned up living happily ever after - I just don't think this is what will happen in SW. And I don't think Luke will become more The main character than he's been since the PT. He'll be one of them - but not the only one. And from that perspective, I was actually touched that all these authors wanted Luke to have such a prominent and outstanding role!

    I definitely agree. I dn't think I've said this, but it's been implied in my general complaint taht Luke just sits back when he's told to do so!

    Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Normally, I don't count who's doing what, and in general, I don't ask for Luke to do something in every story he's in. But In CoO I first of all found he was held back on constructed grounds, in a way that mae him OOC - plus it started to annoy me as I also thought Luke was used as comic relief but never allowed to grow above that. Now, it's part of Luke's character to be a big goofy and comical, not least at this point of timeline - but not to this extent - and not as the only thing we see!!!

    Yes - and you know what - in that scene I had that unreal, uncanny feeling that it wasn't Mara throwing Luke a blaster - it was Zahn throwing his fans a bone. o_O But in the end, hardly anything came out of it all anyway.

    I just don't get what Zahn's wanting to show with Luke in his last two portrayals of him :confused: If nothing else, Luke's the husband of one of the major characters he's created - he's gotta have an idea?!?

    Yes, this is a very good point and I agree completely. However, I wonder if taht was the author's intention? Let's hope so.
    Last edited by kataja, Feb 16, 2013