Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.
Maybe not in HTTE, but Thrawn says as much to Mara in DFR.
That he does - it's just that I think Mara in Allegiance and CoO is so different than the Mara in TTT that I sometimes doubt Zahn's project with her has remained the same. But that's probably just me...
Hmm, I'm kind of sceptical too of there being any masterplan, more that it's a neat link but not necessarily planned - there is the trauma of her sudden downfall to explain the difference in character where Mara's concerned too.
Right - if there was a deeper wish to develop Mara's character, it should have been showed more in CoO - but instead we got basically the same as in Allegiance. Also that Mara knows different Force stuff in these two (like healign trance - that she seems unaware of exists in VOTF ) makes it look pretty inconsistent to me - alongside that Luke's actually met her before. The trauma explains a few things - but not all.
Ah, but does she actually know how to do that or is it effectively a zombie skill that Sidious is wielding through her, while she thinks she's the one really doing it?
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that's the case. Mara's power begins to fade away in the Tales comic Mara Jade: A Night on the Town.
I really like this idea, because it's effectively a reverse on the Jedi Exile's special ability, and I like it when characters show different aptitudes for the Force. I also like the idea that the order to kill Luke was not just an order, but an mind-implanted order that Mara's nearly powerless to disobey (hence the frantic visions in Last Command).
Zahn admits as much in the Anniversary edition. It's one of the few times where Zahn actually changed his original idea to better match the EU (a barely Force sensitive Inquisitor wouldn't have been much use to Palpatine).
There is also the point where Luke has to reteach her how to use the Force in TLC. In the comic there were panels dedicated to it. She also had that mental suggestion illustrated in one particular scene after her chat with the noghiri.
We have just pass a milestone folks, for a minute I thought Kataja would have finish TUF before you finish CoO
Ok, in seriousness you have illustrated basically how I felt about the book too. The plot is typical Zahn which is great, he handles the other characters with varying degrees of success and the story keeps you invested but his take on farmboy/rebel hero Luke is off by a margin. From the author's perspective it seems like Luke only became useful/competent when he is a jedi knight which doesn't make any sense when he demonstrates the Hand of Judgement and how well they work despite being non-force sensitives. I would think Zahn could handle Mara's future husband with a bit more care but apparently he struggles in deciding if Luke needs Obi-wan to hold his hand or him focusing on his Force skills so early in his jedi career. The idea of Luke not carrying his blaster just baffles me...there are ways to make Luke work with just his Force hunches, his wits, and his blaster.
speaking of Post ANH, the 2nd issue of Star Wars dropped but it seems like another Leia focused issue. I do want to know how Brian Wood handles Luke. But right now I would kill for JJM or Tom Taylor writing a Luke jedi knight series
well I'll give her praise in how she had Luke telekinetically own Jacen again even when his nephew was prepared for the attack I'm still waiting for Luke to grab a lightsaber with his hand and not be harmed.
I agree I don't even know what we disagree on
which is a possibility I just pray they give the OT characters and the new characters equal breathing room instead of pushing the OT characters to the sidelines. I had enough of that in some EU stories and I think we need a bone here. we waited rather long
And I believe that too.....but I also believe that both generations can work together and the new generation needs the OT characters to sort of lead/guide them to stand on their own two feet come Episode 9.
true but we can speculate
throw us a bone in how it was a giant coincident that they happen to work together before HTTE ?
agreed...this is a weakness of Zahn's handle on pre-jedi Luke.
It does indeed need to be fixed. I know that I'm not looking forward to the next book that will have Luke in it, because I fear we'll get more of the same with Denning. Plus, as you know, I'm really, really worried about Luke being possibly permanently disabled Force-wise.
Oh, I completely agree. And I don't want to have the same thing happen that happened in the first two trilogies. We already had the wise mentors die in both the OT and the PT. In fact, in the OT, we saw BOTH of Luke's mentors killed off. It would be nice to have something different and surprising... It would be nice to see Luke survive the ST and get to live a long and happy life. I'm still hoping that I'll get to see Luke get his "happily ever after" and a lasting legacy instead of the terrible life that Luke got in the EU and the legacy that he lost because of the Legacy comics.
I would really love to see them do this!
A little over halfway through Heir to the Empire. Even on my third time through, I can say the story is just as good as it always was, maybe better in some ways. Because it had been awhile, I thought Zahn writing such a great Han Solo was a fairly recent thing, with Choices of One and Scoundrels, but going back, it's obvious Han is great in HTTE as well.
Zahn's Luke in HTTE is very true to the movie character. Still, I almost wish he would lose his temper with Mara or Karrde, but if nothing else Luke shows he's got the Jedi serenity bit down. I really enjoyed Stover's version of Luke, still calm but with a definite edge; granted, Luke was under a great deal of stress during that story, but it's really the only story I can think of where Luke walks over other people, and not the other way around. Even so, I do think the Luke we see in HTTE is a logical progression, from a boy who's still not entirely sure of his place in the galaxy to a man in perfect control of himself.
The one that really bothered me was Denning's response. He said he wanted Luke to go "fairly early". WHY????? What's the big rush???? If anything, as the Jedi Master, Luke should have more of a role to play than Leia or Han. Why should Luke be killed off quickly? To me, it does show that Denning doesn't really care that much for the character.
I think most people expect Luke to die in the ST. We already know that Qui-gon died in the Prequel trilogy and Obi-wan and Yoda died in the OT, so it seems as though Luke has this big target painted on him. As the (likely) leader and wise mentor pretty much everyone expects Luke to be killed off so the new young hero can go it alone and shine. But that IS predictable and cliche. Can't we have something new, different, and surprising? I think it would be wonderful if they DON'T kill Luke in the ST. They can still have the new younger characters be the major heroes but why can't the founder and leader of the New Jedi Order survive to dispense wisdom and train another generation or two of Jedi knights? I'm hoping we'll even get to see Luke involved in an action sequence or two along with the younger characters, though I certainly expect the younger generation to be the main heroes and to get the bulk of the action.
I just really want to see Luke get to live to a very ripe, old age and die a peaceful death with his family, friends, and Jedi around him.
Besides, who would we accept to be resourceful and powerful enough to kill off Luke Skywalker? I can't think of any way that I would find it satisfactory. Just as with the written EU, I hope we never have to witness Luke's death.
I agree with you about this, MS!
Thanks! That's good to know! Maybe I'll even read that first!
Well, that's good, because she certainly seemed to be far more skilled in the Force than I thought she was. In HttE, she didn't seem to know much about the Force at all. Luke had to teach her things as though she was a new apprentice.
They're definitely NOT Luke books. However, even if Luke isn't supposed to be a major character in either of them, I don't feel he should have been portrayed as so incompetent and useless either. Couldn't Luke have been allowed to accomplish at least ONE thing in each book? I don't expect Luke to be a Jedi at that time. I don't even expect him to use the Force at all really. But Luke has many other talents besides his Jedi gifts, most especially, his resourcefulness. Couldn't Zahn have given Luke something worthwhile to do? Couldn't he have written Luke as smart and creative and USEFUL?
In HttE, Zahn showed that Luke was more than a Force user. Why did he seem to forget that in Allegiance and CoO? As I said yesterday, every other character managed to do something worthwhile, but not Luke. WHY????
This really makes sense. Both that Sibious zombie boosts her skills - and that the comamnd was Force implated. What we've never really got an explanation for, though, is how she started to feel the Force again around TTT? Was using the Force like a scar in her mind (preventing her from picking up where she'd left int he years between ROTJ and TTT)? And was it the presence of Luke that made the 'command stir' in her mind, breaking through no matter how much pain it brought her? It would not only make sense but be pretty intrieguing too.
But it wouldn't explain why Mara is so baffled about healing trance in VOTF when we now know she's been using it before. And it wouldn't explain how she can use still the Force so easily in the end of MJBTEH. showing no pain whatsoever.
I'm touched by your faith, Master and devastated I've failed you. But even more I'm devastated abotu the project I have ahead. I'm stuck in ch. 3 or was it 4 - and every sentence is pain, pain...
Exactly! And you nail it for me too - I'm baffled! I mean, a bad Luke characterization is just... well, another bad Luke characterization. But this... just doesn't make sense??? I mean, Zahn's smart, a good writer, should know his Star Wars, should be a Luke-fan - then what is this??? Is it me - or is it him? And why do I even have to ask sucha Sithly question?
Agree on taht too!!!
LOL that too - but also quite literally: Mara threw Luke a bone so he could be in the fight. And us a blaster so we could root for Luke a little. Or was it the other way round? I actually start to like my own version better. After all, he fought a rancor with a bone a couple of years later
This I do agree with!
He writes a very good - but also respectable Han Solo. Much more respectable than most. Then again, if anyone would need a SOS therad it would be Han!
Agreed on all three! Though I'd like to point out that Luke in TTT and HTTE is most true to ROTJ Luke - not necessarily ESB and ANH Luke. And IMO I've come to realize that the reason why I think Luke and Mara form such a good couple is because the former (ANH and ESB) Luke is still there under the calm control. Otherwise Mara would just walk over him! I have a feeling Zahn doesn't quite know what to do with the more temperamental Luke - it's pretty telling taht he lets Luke loose his temper only once - but then very violently and throw Mara towards a wall. I'd say more frequent but less violent would be more in character. And like you - I both like and believe in the edge Stover allows him! It's by far, the best Luke characterization in any novel! But like you say, it would make sense taht a less stressed Luke, would try to be more in control - and after DE, he would so even more.
He would simpky have tried to erase some of his personality. Not a good thing - but it would seem consistent with what's been happening.
Which is why I like the FOTJ Luke who is in complete control - but wouldn't let anyone walk over him.
You read alot into that sentence, I think.
This really bothers me too. And coming from Zahn, who's always tried to diminish Luke's use of Jedi powers, it seemes even more odd. I feel there must be a point, but it fails me what it is. And I'm not sure I like it.
I'm probably going to surprise you but since the announcement of the ST I feel no interest in another Denning centric Legacy book. I'll give the book a benefit of a doubt and borrow it from the library....but if the book follows the trend of Invincible, Tempest, Abyss, and Vortex then I won't hesitate in just giving up reading Legacy era books.
I did enjoy DN and Inferno, and from initial reading of Apocalypse I thought Denning capture Luke's character pretty well. But even still I had issues with the plot of the latter two books. And it has been a long time since Denning used Luke's talents fully. I think the author gets more wrong than right when writing Luke hence why I only like a few of his books.
The fact that it's expected and in the mind of all the fans means that Abbrams, Ardnt, and whoever works on the new trilogy should buck the trend and have Luke lived. I'm also hoping he gets a prominent/central role but I do want him recast. Perhaps they could have the original actors cameo in the film as a nod for the fans.
it would only make sense as for the OT characters they didn't really have the opportunity to work with the older PT generation, since the last two jedi became hermits, Padme died and Luke & Leia's dad became the enemy.
agreed....and I find it hypocritical that he mention before that he didn't want the big 3 to die in the books. But the films are ok ?!?!?
Hear Hear !!!!
she still retain a bit of ability but it definitely was a whisper of what she used to rely on.She also was hiding the ability and didn't use it for a couple of years IIRC. So it might take her a bit longer to remember. It also illustrates that Mara was using Palp's boost as a crutch and if she ever were to betray her master she wouldn't have chance at escape.
tsk tsk, you know no pain until you have read Planet of Twilight or the Jedi Prince series.
I dunno perhaps Zahn has lost his grasp of Luke as a character ? It certainly seems that way.
That is an example of Luke using his wits instead of his power, although when he threw the skull at the control panel it was Force assisted Also I wouldn't be surprised if Luke's Force intuition led him to the control panel. I remember in a deleted scene, they had Luke Force jump to the top of the rail but had to cut it due to time.
to me at least the very first movie should have Luke as the main action figure, slowly displaced in the last movie by the young ones. he needs to have a bigger role that what seems to be the plan
I like it as well. We see in other things, like KOTOR/TOR, that it's possible for extremely powerful dark side users to implant orders in anther's mind. I like the idea that Sidious did that for Mara, and that she could only be free of it by killing him, hence the death of Luuke.
As for how Mara began to regain her power, well, I certainly have a theory on that. My general theory on Mara is that she gains her power from Force bonds, just like the Jedi Exile in KOTOR II. Her first bond is Palpatine, and that's where she gets her power. When Palpatine is killed, it begins to fade away. However, she later begins to regain her power... when she meets Luke. Over the next few years, she begins to regain more and more of her power, until she's actually stronger than she was before. At the same time, she's growing close to Luke, and eventually marries him. Coincidence? Possibly, but I like the theory a lot. It makes sense that Palpatine would limit the amount of power Mara could siphon from him; Luke would do no such thing. My theory is that once her Force bond with Palpatine is severed, she begins one with Luke, one that, like their relationship in general, doesn't take long to manifest itself, but takes years to actually reach its conclusion.
While I agree with you that the new generation will likely be the focus of the new films, I don't think that means that it's necessary for Luke to die. Why can't he be the wise mentor/teacher who also is "hands on" and gets actively involved once in a while? The younger characters can still be the primary heroes, but I don't think that necessitates Luke's death.
However, I sadly think you're probably right. As I said yesterday, Luke probably has a big target on his back and will be killed off like all of the previous Jedi mentors. But I wish they wouldn't go for the easy, repetitive scenerio. I wish they would think outside the box and give us a much more satisfying and unpredictable role for Luke than just the expected and sad, "mentor who is killed so apprentice can be on his/her own" role.
So why can't we get something different and have multi-generations working together???
And that's not something Luke would do. If Luke didn't listen to Obi-wan and Yoda and stay to complete the training instead of going off to rescue Han and Leia, why would he just sit back when a stormtrooper he hardly knows tells him to do that????
Plus, as I said, it was so clear that everyone else was making a worthwhile contribution. It made Luke stick out like a sore thumb that he was the only one who did pretty much nothing.
Exactly!!! When she threw him that blaster, I thought, "Hurray! Finally, Luke is going to get to accomplish something positive!" What a letdown when MARA ended up saving the governor's family. So, once again, Luke didn't do anything in that book. It was very, very frustrating!
I don't get what he's trying to do with Luke either! I know this much though: I don't like it!
By a LARGE margin, in my opinion!
Plus, it doesn't go along with his characterization of Luke in the Thrawn trilogy. There, Zahn shows a very competent, smart, resourceful Luke Skywalker who accomplishes much without the Force!
He certainly did fine in A New Hope when he knew practically nothing about the Force.
I'm not expecting them to get equal time and equal heroics, but I do hope that we will get to see Luke do something truly amazing, and I hope Luke isn't killed off. As you said, we HAVE waited a LONG time. And for so many of the years since the PT, Anakin/Vader has been the "big cheese" in the SW galaxy. I want Luke to be on top again.
This is what I"m hoping too.
For some reason, all of the authors seem to write Han well. I'm really not sure why.
I thought so too. As you said, Luke certainly has the "Jedi serenity bit down".
It's definitely a continuity issue.
Well, it's not just you, because both MS and I are annoyed by it too and very confused about what Zahn is trying to say about Luke with these portrayals.
Except for a very few books, I disagree. I think most of the author handle Han pretty well. He usually seems pretty much in-character. I remember him disowning Jacen and going sort of nuts after Chewie's death, but otherwise, I think most authors portray Han well.
I agree. That really bothered me when Zahn had Luke throw Mara towards a wall. I really don't think that Luke would ever do something like that.
I don't think so. Why was it necessary for Denning to say that he wanted Luke to go early? He could have just explained how he wanted Luke to die. He didn't need to say that Luke should die early in the ST. That made it seem like he was in a hurry to get rid of Luke.
That makes two of us. It almost seems like Zahn is now trying to diminish Luke in other ways besides his use of Jedi powers... Is he trying to make Luke look kind of bad to make Mara look better? Heck, in CoO EVERYONE looked better than Luke!
That DOES surprise me!
Well, you know that *I* agree about that. I've never been very pleased with Denning's Luke portrayals. ... As you know, I also don't like the direction that Denning has taken the EU in either, which is why I really wouldn't be disappointed if they rewrite the EU after SQ or TUF.
I would certainly like to see this!
It doesn't make sense, does it?
Well, even if Luke isn't the main character, I'm hoping he'll have a fairly large role and that it will be a very important one.
Just a quick quote from Fangirlblog that I like:
I think the question we have to ask is: can Mark Hamill still carry a SW film as main protagonist? A film that launches off a new era of SW, aimed for kids as well as adults? My own answer is that he won't be given the chance - simply because of his age. Even if he could - I don't think Disney would dare to take the risk. The best we can hope for is him sharing the scene equally with someone who's going to be in focus in the films further down the timeline.
Of course there is also the possibility that they recast and start off pretty close to ROTJ - in that case we'll probably have Luke's story all along - BUT in that case they'll lose the continuity the original cast would bring to any follow up story - and publicity.
if the creative team really respects the OT characters as well the fandom it would seem probably the best way to approach the series. Not to mention Abrams has a knack for capturing the essence of an original character....why waste that talent with a character death ?
exactly, Luke at that stage of his soldier career would not stay idle by when people's lives were in danger.
it's odd that he struggles here, considering Force powers hasn't been Zahn's forte since he started with HTTE.
totally agree, although I do hope for equal screen time of the OT and ST characters.
It really shouldn't surprise you, while I like DN and Inferno Denning has had more misses than hits with me. Also most of his books revolve on a never ending series and vague prophecies....it gets old fast.
LFL better have Luke and Mara tie the knot...
I certainly hope that this is what we will see in the ST. I definitely want Luke to marry and have children!
This is what I"m hoping we'll get: a multi-generational story where the young Skywalker doesn't have to lose his parents.
That's what I think.
I don't think that Luke would ever do that!
We'll see, I guess!
Yes, it does...
Wow! Did everyone leave the galaxy, or what?
Jedi Ben, I took your suggestion and got out the annotated version of Heir to the Empire. I'm starting with the novella in the back though while my memories of Choices of One are still fresh. Sadly, a quick flip through seems to show that Luke won't be a part of the story.
Good news/bad news depending on your perspective. Hamill is in talks to reprise his role as Luke Skywalker for the new films, but will only come back if "the whole gang" comes back. Also, if for whatever reason any of them don't come back, they'll be written out of the movie, not recast.
This, to me, sounds like the right move. This last trilogy should feel like a conclusion to the two that came before it. In this, at least, they should not be recast. If they want to go back later and fill in the blanks, set a movie only a few years after ROTJ, that's fine. For this final trilogy, however, I don't feel recasting would be appropriate. Later, not now.
Unrelated: I finished Heir to the Empire a few days ago. The scene where Luke practically single handedly brings down the Imperial platoon, without the Force no less, remains one of my favorite scenes in any Star Wars work.
Sadly no, you get Thrawn and Fel but no Luke! BUT you will enjoy the annotated HTTE! Pity we're not getting DFR and TLC!
The annotations were fun. Actually wish there were more of them.
I loved them, it made for a unique reading experience so I nabbed the Annotated Sword of Shannara a few months back.
blame it on my new job also JB and I recently received dlc for Skyrim so we been busy.(JB, I built a mansion )
is it only available via hardback ?
I hear Hamill is in talks with Ardnt and Kennedy....though no word with the director. While I'm warming up to the idea of the original cast coming back, I don't think they'll have the same energy as we would expect them to portray the characters from 30 years ago. Nostalgia and reality aren't the best of bedfellows. Harrison Ford in the last couple of films has seem a bit stale, and I already made my remarks on the rest of the cast. Unless the cast literally shapes up(looking at Hamill and Fisher) and bring an incredibly great portrayal of the Big 3 then I think I could possibly live with it.
I still want more Luke adventures during his younger years.
the thing though is we really don't have a timeline for when these movies take place after Jedi, most headlines highlight the most likely rumors of this focusing on the next generation...but we don't have a synopsis or blurb officially.
Care to mention how Luke does it ?
It will be interesting to see what they roll over from the EU. I would say the Solo twins have the best odds because come on one twin goes dark and has to be killed by the other that is just genre gold.
Mara would be nice but will see.
Sadly I never have found ben all that interesting and some hints of a female skywalker.
As for Luke, I say the Big 3 have good odds of death. Old mentors do not have good survival rates in these fantasy comic of age adventure tales. Not saying they never live. But if he does I hope he goes out like a bad*** and not in the first movie.