Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    The problem with TPM is that Lucas was by himself with a yes man in Rick. This time he has Kasdan and Arndt to help with Luke. Lucas also realizes that this is his lasting legacy and his alter ego.
  2. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    As Reven put it, in holo, in Path of Destruction:

    Those who use the dark side are also bound to serve it.
  3. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

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    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Darth_Pevra:
    That's a good point, and truthfully, I never liked the whole concept of the "chosen one" either. However, since it *has* been introduced in SW, I feel Luke if far more deserving of the title than Anakin is and I'd like to see Luke get his due.


    Well, I don't think it should ever have happened. I think there were other, far better ways that Luke and Leia could have worked together. I don't feel that being an X-wing pilot is right for Leia's character, and I don't think that plot should ever come before characterization. I feel that this was a huge problem in much of the Del Rey books involving Luke. Luke's character was too often thrown under the bus to serve the plot, in my opinion. The worst case of this was in Luke's vengeance killing of Lumiya. I don't believe that was something that Jedi Grandmaster Luke Skywalker would ever have done, yet that's what we got in order to serve the authors' desire to have the Solo twins face off against one another in Invincible.


    He was only trained really so that he could be a weapon against his father. I really don't know why he was trained instead of Leia... maybe because Leia was too well-known in the galaxy as a Princess of Alderaan and a senator.

    Leia likely would have been a prodigy in the Force too if she had been trained when Luke was and would have put the same time and energy into being a Jedi that Luke did. They ARE Skywalker twins, after all. But now that Leia is also an X-wing pilot, there is absolutely no role that Luke has played that Leia hasn't; but the same can't be said of Luke. He has never been a polititian, a diplomat, a Prince, CoS, or a Senator, but Leia has been a Jedi and now an X-wing pilot.








    T-R-
    Well, it didn't take much coaxing. Luke seemed just fine as soon as Leia said he would train her children. Maybe it took a couple of moments because Luke doubted that he would be able to defeat the Emperor or even get away from him after he was beaten by that last clone? He did seem to be sort of lost in despair when Leia arrived. Maybe he was afraid that the Emperor would try to turn Leia to the darkside in place of him? The story of DE didn't really make all that much sense to me and I never really liked it. But I can't imagine how anyone can possibly be considered a dark sider without committing evil acts. And Luke didn't commit evil acts. That to me is the biggest proof that he he didn't fall. Plus, we have Leeland Chee's confirmation about it.

    I wouldn't be all that disappointed to have a lot of it gone either. I'm definitely not a fan of DE or of the NJO, DN, LotF, or FotJ.







    Iron_lord:
    Well, if that's true, there are probably very few Jedi that are NOT darksiders. Jaina, Mara, and Corran used the Dark side. I'd say that even Ben did and that Leia did also when she fought Alema so viciously, and when she killed Kuellor in anger and hatred. Good luck in finding a Jedi who hasn't had a human slip from time to time!

    Even if Luke HAD fallen to the dark for a very short time (which he didn't), certainly with all of the good things he has done for so many people and for the galaxy so many times over, it would certainly be tremendously unfair to say that he couldn't be redeemed and was forever condemned just because he read the Emperor's dark side books.

    Why do you want to believe that Luke is an unredeemable darksider anyway???


    Well, we know that Palpatine tried to turn Luke. He just failed. And even if some of that is copied from the essential Character guide doesn't mean that the author ever really read DE or the notes that accompany DE. Plus, the Luke Skywalker compendium was written well after that Character guide, and as I said, Chee says that Luke "NEARLY" gave in to the dark side. I'd say that's pretty official confirmation that Luke DIDN'T fall to the dark side.

    Was Luke foolish in DE? Definitely! Was he a darksider who committed evil acts? No. Did he like what he read in the Emperor's dark side books? No, we're even told that he was "repulsed" by what he read.







    Jedi Ben:
    It seemed more like Cade made up his own mind by himself. What Luke said didn't seem to have any affect on him at all. If it had, I think a talk between Luke and Cade after Cade killed Krayt in which Cade gave Luke some credit for getting him to change, and Luke told Cade he was proud of him would have really helped. After all the times that Luke tried to influence Cade throughout Legacy and Cade ignored and disrespected him, I think we should have gotten some positive Luke/Cade closure.
  4. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Chosen One is needed if only to explain why Anakin got a way with some much BS.
  5. T-R- Chosen One

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    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    [QUOTEBut I can't imagine how anyone can possibly be considered a dark sider without committing evil acts. And Luke didn't commit evil acts.
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I've wondered that too. I mean, in ROTJ Anakin/Vader really followed a biological impetus (to protect ones child) and I'm not sure how that makes him "chosen one of the force". The title seems more fitting to the New Hope who went from farmboy to hero.
    But I still have my doubts the chosen one prophecy should even be mentioned.

    Aside from the fighter-pilot thing, Leias characterization is top-notch in the comics. Brian Woods is one of the few who gives us an insight view in what makes her tick during that time period. I certainly prefer it to the overly soft Leia of usual EU.

    I'm reading NJO right now and I really dislike the Luke in there. He is a completely different person and I find him even unsympathetic.

    Interesting question. Maybe he has qualities that Leia hasn't. If you take a close look at Leia, what you find is that she is mostly motivated by righteous anger. Another of her aspects is that she is a bit obsessed with appearing strong and dislikes showing weakness. She is quick to judge as well.
    While Luke is quite angry too, he is much more open minded than Leia. I can see Luke trying to save his father, I can't see Leia do the same.

    It's only a couple of comics and the future of the EU is extremely uncertain anyway. Who knows what kind of canon-system we'll get in the future?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Mar 21, 2013
  7. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Wow! I'm away a couple of weeks and you go ballistic meanwhile!

    Welcome to all new posters!!![:D]

    Yes, that showoff was brilliant too! :D And Clalista actually didn't notice Mara had feeligns for Luke - at least she words it that she's heard, stuff about them.

    PS - and to a later comment, I meant we need to flesh out the timeperiod 9-19 ANY

    You and me alike then! I can buy that Luke calms by age and experience, but he'd never lose his passion - it's too big a part of him!

    [face_laugh] Well said! Yes, Luke is impossibly tenacios!


    Heard! Heard!!! :D

    I HAVE to get my hands in that issue!!!

    Thank you for this inofrmation T-R-! Yes, I think I've read these things myself from different sources - save the last one. Has he said this - or does it come from the interview after ROTJ where someone asks why Luke never got a girl and Lucas says, ' but you haven't seen the next ones' ?


    Nice point!
  8. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    This is what I got, as cited - Bill Warren. "George Lucas: Father of the Force". Starlog #127, February 1988

  9. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Yay!!! :D

    And my vote goes to Mara as well! ;)
    T-R- likes this.
  10. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    ou and me alike then! I can buy that Luke calms by age and experience, but he'd never lose his passion - it's too big a part of him!

    luke has plenty of passion in the njo series, it's just tempered by maturity and the gravity of his reality
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He acts like the archetypal benevolent politician. He is sorta a cross between Bail Organa and Obi-Wan. Very un-Luke imo.
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  12. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I think you should mention his position at LFL as the thankless job as the person who maintains the Holocron continuity database, there is a reason why GL gave him the job and I mean GL directly.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leland_Chee

    Jaina claim Mara fell....that directly contradicts what was establish in VotF....unless this is Jaina's opinion.

    Chosen One in all but name, his arc is the hero's arc and he is a chosen one in the OT.

    which book if you don't mind me asking ?

    Leia is naturally skilled when handling with people, Luke is more naturally skilled with flying and mechanics(which seems to be overlooked in books)

    you should expect it by now apprentice :p

    thanks :D

    actually IIRC Callista and Mara are chatting in the praxeum and I believe Mara said to take good care of him. Then Callista asks Mara if she ever had feelings for Luke, Mara obviously says no but Callista didn't believe her....o_O

    ah that makes much more sense

    yeah I believe she is human but Im not sure [face_alien]

    Ok following that belief can you point to me where in DE did Luke use the DS ? Aside of Doppleganger, which isn't a DS power. No surprise since it's basically a Fallnasi illusion.


    ok agreed there, but the thing is Luke did not have any evil in his mind during DE at least from his own thoughts. Remember Palpatine was messing with him throughout his stay at Byss. Just by Luke being near Palpatine for a while by Byss is enough for Palpatine to influence his thoughts to his own wants. The radio drama points out that Luke could not center his mind and concentrate when the DS was subtly interfering with his thoughts. Luke also mentions in the book that "Through the strength of the Force, your shroud of evil has been lifted from my mind". Luke here is telling us he was not in control of his actions, that Palpatine was controlling his mind, this is why he was lost in the DS and not necessarily fallen to the DS. To actually fall in the DS you have to do it out of free will, to actually make the choice on your own. Palpatine was making the choice for him cause he knew Luke would not willingly fall.

    Leia freed him by cracking the shroud of the DS by inspiring hope in Luke of the future of the jedi/

    It's not a retcon since the text in the book plainly states Luke's mind was being controlled by Palpatine
    "Through the strength of the Force, your shroud of evil has been lifted from my mind."
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, Tionne comments on the writings of a Master Tolaris Shim, who writes:

    "Through a period of meditation, reflection, and absolution, a Jedi who has been tainted by the dark side can atone for her actions. A Dark Jedi cannot atone, but may find redemption by turning away from the dark side and performing a selfless act of heroism without calling on the dark side of the force."

    Tionne's comment was

    "the conviction of Jedi Master Tolaris Shim's words on the subject of redemption prompted me to reconsider the reputations of several Jedi who travelled over to the dark side, apparently returned to the light, and were eventually considered "redeemed" by some Jedi, if not all. Of particular interest was how Tolaris Shim might have regarded the actions of Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, and Kyp Durron. After I provided what I considered to be an accurate and objective account of each Jedi's dark side experiences and deeds Shim's interactive hologrammatic simulcrum offered the same judgement on all, "Any Jedi who kills innocents while under sway of the dark side cannot be redeemed. She can only atone, or attempt to atone."

    While most would agree that some actions are entirely unforgivable, it is possible that redemption may be, like so many other things in life, a matter of perspective."

    Mara claims in VotF that she was "never on the Dark side at all" and Luke agrees- but Balance Point, I'm told, muddies the position somewhat. In I, Jedi, Mara also claims to be learning at the academy to "change her power source" - before, she let emotions fuel what she did- now, she's using a power source that "runs a bit leaner, but won't burn the engine out" as she and Corran put it.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013
  14. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    if she used emotions to fuel her powers then she has been doing it wrong for her whole career. When Mara was on the job she was cold and robotic, you can see this in Allegiance and CoO. Oddly enough the only book she let "loose" her emotions was during battle was Sacrifice.

    As for the Jedi vs Sith quote, when has Luke killed under the sway of the DS ? also no offense to you(more of a critique to the guide itself) the quote of Shim is pretty much wrong in it's entirety, we know for a fact Anakin was redeemed when he appeared as a Force spirit. The quote seems like a deliberate way of making ambiguous of what is already established as canon. I take this as another instance of Del-Rey being inconsistent

    As for Yoda's quote when he stated "Once you start the dark path....forever it will ruled your destiny." take note this was mention before Luke redeemed his father..
  15. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    her power source was siphoning off Sidious's power not the DS from her own volition.
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the old Essential Guide to Characters- Luke is characterized as slowly coming under the sway of the Dark Side a bit at a time under Palpatine's tutelage- and then, he kills Palpatine's clones.

    Who could technically be "innocents" - being helpless and not possessed by Palpatine's spirit.

    If Luke actually ordered deaths, during his apprenticeship under Palpatine, that might also qualify- though it's never mentioned.

    Maybe it had less to do with redemption, and more to do with Obi-Wan's decision to teach him the secret of coming back, at the moment of his death.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Mara's spirit talks with Cade in Legacy 2: Shards- and it does suggest Mara went Dark once:

    Mara: "Deathsticks. These are really stupid. Why do you do this?"
    Cade: "Keeps me from touching the Force -- or the Force from touching me!"
    Mara: "You're an idiot. You can't stop from touching the Force any more than you can stop breathing. You're a Skywalker. The Force runs strong in your family."
    Mara: "Real question is -- which way are you going to go with it? I know both sides -- I was the Emperor's Hand and I was Luke Skywalker's wife."
    Cade: "Partying with both sides of the Force. You knew how to live."
    Mara: "I can tell you -- keeping with the light can be really tough. The dark side is so seductive ..."
    Mara: "... And more addictive than those deathsticks. And it calls to you, doesn't it? It calls ..."

    Though the whole thing could all be Cade's hallucination.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013
  18. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    killed clones who had no mind/life saved to served Palpatine, basically husks. And as I mentioned before, Luke being mind influenced is different then him making the choice of converting to the DS.

    If Luke actually ordered deaths, during his apprenticeship under Palpatine, that might also qualify- though it's never mentioned
    cause it didn't happen.o_O We never see Palpatine ask Luke to prove his dedication and there is a reason why, cause Palpatine is slowly converting him by influencing his mind. Even when Luke was "leading" the attack on the rebels, Palpatine already order the command long before he pick up Luke. Luke's command was a farce and Palpatine knew it




    "I expected to take some damage from him. Any worthy opponent is going to inflict injury. If he doesn't, he's not worth troubling with. Let a few Devastators be destroyed. Let Skywalker think he's getting the best of me. As long as he believes he's succeeding, I have him in my grasp. And as long as I hold him, the more vulnerable he becomes to the unfathomable power of the dark side. Think what he'll do when he is fully mine, when he is working for the Empire, working to help us win!"-DE Handbook


    It was always Palp's command. And as for speculation....that's all it will ever be
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Mar 21, 2013
  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Or, they could have been "basically newborn babies with the bodies of adults".
  20. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    it was confirmed to be a hallucination;)
  21. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    untrue, they were clones of Palps original body with no actual thoughts of their own,the audio drama confirms this as well as the handbook.
  22. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    What in?

    Given the number of sources consistant with at least some level of Dark in Mara (she even, in a rage, attempts to Force choke Thrawn in Dark Force Rising) a case could be made that, while she never "fell all the way" she's not squeaky clean either.

    Haven't got either of those- I was going with the assumption that they're exactly like Kamino clones, only with Palpatine rather than Jango as the donor- and grown all the way to adulthood in the cylinders, rather than decanted as babies.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013
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  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
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    A lot of the reason for why DE is the way it is is that it was written with a few basic assumptions in mind:

    1. That no one will actually buy that Luke will actually go dark
    2. That the story is a tale of a hero's descent into hell to try to slay the devil only to find that you can't out-fight the devil with fire
    3. That there are better options to duelling such adversaries

    That we have become considerably more cynical about such matters in the 20 years since reflects more badly on us than the story's creators.
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  24. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    Ostrander confirmed it in an interview when the issue was released, as either it was the Jedi Whiphid master doing or hallunications. I don't have the source but I believe it was in Insider.

    as for Mara, I don't doubt she has issues with the DS, I mean Palpatine was her power source after all. but it's never stated she fallen to the DS, rather she was an Imperial soldier who believe what the Empire stood for. Palpatine shelter her from the realities.
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Or, that until Chee wrote on it, books that talked about those events suggested that Luke fell in at least some sense. Maybe not all the way- but enough that it keeps getting brought up.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013