Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Lost in the darkside due to being mind manipulated is different than falling to the DS of one's free will. It might seem like a minimal difference but its outcome on the soul is massive
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Mar 21, 2013
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  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    If there's one major screw-up I'd reverse in SW EU, it is the utter clusterfrell that was the books handling of DE, that they all took a massive victory against the dark side and turned it into a defeat says much.
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  3. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    And that manipulation, at the end, was applied on a massive scale and amplified up to near out-right coercion.
  4. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Wonder if Mara could be characterised that way? Only, she's not even aware she's manipulated?

    Which may be why she thinks of Palpatine as a good man, in Allegiance.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013
  5. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @Jedi Ben


    exactly....the fact that Luke outright states "Your shroud of evil has been lifted off my mind" means that Luke finally regain control of his mind. As for Luke blaming himself in the other books....well it wouldn't be Luke if he harp on himself for any bad decision.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Mar 21, 2013
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  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Other people use phrases like "Luke, that's the worst decision you've made since apprenticing yourself to Palpatine's clone." Suggesting they thought it was a bad idea too.
  7. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  8. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    it was a bad idea, but overall it was the best he could make at the time. He face a foe who could always appear again and destroy planets with a Force storm, without the knowledge of Palpatine's book Luke and Leia would not have been able to "turn off" his control
  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Maybe. Later generations might be being overly harsh on Luke & possibly Mara- Tionne, whoever Jaina's talking about in Ascension, and so forth.

    Maybe it's Kevin J. Anderson's fault for wording it that way in books like the Character Guide- which people may have used as their source?
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  10. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    It seems to be, as even when he wrote Luke in JAT he wrote him rather inconsistently. Luke is very passive with his students to the point he could detect Gantoris's anger and rage but he leaves him on his own. This is right after the DE trilogy....it makes no sense.
  11. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    T-R-
    They are in the Luke Skywalker: Last Hope for the Galaxy omnibus/compendium which was published in 2008.

    I don't have any idea, but I will say this: If Luke would have fallen in DE, it would have completely negated RotJ, where Luke passed his test; became a Jedi; and redeemed his father. Luke threw away his lightsaber and was willing to die rather than join the dark side. No EU story should negate or diminish a SW film, in my opinion.






    Darth_Pevra:
    Exactly ! That's the way I feel too.


    I understand your concern, but as I said, since it's already a part of the saga, I'd certainly rather see Luke than Anakin be given the title. Luke as the Chosen One makes so much more sense!


    I haven't read this yet, but I plan to do so. Do you think that Luke is characterized well too?


    I didn't like Luke's characterization in the NJO either in most of the books. For one thing, I really hated the passive, sit-on-the-sidelines-and-wait -to-see-what-happens Luke. That's NOT Luke Skywalker! He's the active, take-charge, in the thick of things character!

    Have you read FotJ or the DN trilogy? Sadly, I think Luke is portrayed even worse in both of those series! :(:mad:He's actually cold and 'darkish' in many of those books, I think.

    You're right. I've always felt that Luke is really more like Padme in personality, while Leia is more like Anakin. I can see her falling to the darkside way more easily than Luke!


    I don't think Luke gets angry easily. He only really got angry when Vader threatened to turn his sister. Contrary to what Yoda said, I think Luke has a lot more patience than Leia too, or at least, he has really learned to be very patient.


    This is true. Do you think that the Leia-as-X-wing-pilot story will only be in one arc of the new SW comics?







    kataja:
    Things have gotten busy here, haven't they? Welcome back!







    MasterSkywalker86:
    Which means that what Chee says is the official word on the subject, right?


    And Jaina was the pot calling the kettle black. She certainly did worse things during her dark journey than Luke did. So if she is saying that Luke is irredeemable for not even falling to the darkside, then she is saying the same thing about herself, as she really did fall to the dark side and commit darkside acts during Dark Journey and the Insider story that went with it.


    You're right: Luke's mechanical skills have been ignored for a very long time now.


    Exactly! There is nothing evil about the doppleganger as that Jedi book confirmed. About the worst thing that Luke did was pick a fight with Han in DE. I don't see that condemning him forever, and Han gave as good as he got.

    Luke didn't take any innocent lives while on Byss. In fact, he did his best to stop the carnage that Palpatine had set in motion by giving orders that caused Imperial ships and weapons of mass destruction to be destroyed or break down. He also gave the Alliance Imperial codes and sabotaged Imperial plans. Luke actually saved many Alliance lives.


    More tomorrow....
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Can't remember if "or me" was on her list. The point she was trying to make is that Luke's argument that Vestara can't be redeemed, may be as misguided as those people arguing that Luke, Vader, Mara and Kyp can't be, and weren't, redeemed.
  13. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I'd disagree it was a bad idea, severely risky and high stakes certainly, but if it's permissible for Han and Qui-Gon to gamble, why not Luke? He pulled it off, just, but the just bit doesn't matter. If results are what count then DE was a win in just about every respect.

    As to the verbal quip - it's the kind of cheap verbal shot that said individuals should know better than to come out with. Though that phrasing is indicative of a great deal of fear - they don't wish to contemplate the notion that Sidious did return! It's too brain-numbing a horror for them - but Luke did face that head-on and sought to fight him, any way he could.

    The recurring mystery for me, alongside the defeat treatment it got, is why so many characters are so literal and simple-minded in their view of it in a galaxy full of con-men, scams and inside jobs. The only answer I have is they can't contemplate Luke Skywalker running such an operation against such a demonic and malevolent force as the dark side and its most potent expression because he's such a nice guy!
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  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    It might be more a case of authors not being willing to portray it as the right thing to do- especially since Luke had to be "pulled out" by Leia.

    Zahn, Denning, Golden, Stackpole, etc.
  15. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Currently reading part 6.

    Yes, you are right, he is skilled with flying and mechanics. He does have some good people skills too on the other hand. While he is no diplomat or politician, he is very perceptive.
  16. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Definitely agree with you there. [:D]

    Yes, I think so. He is mostly the innocent and naive farmboy, but there's some edge to him too. Also, what I much like: He is not portrayed like a virgin.

    No, I didn't read much post Endor EU. Whenever I tried to get into it, I was disappointed. Now I try again with the NJO and so far it is ... okay. Not great, but it certainly beats my low expectations. Maybe I'll try to stay away from FotJ and DN if Luke's portrayed so badly in it.


    Yes, exactly! Authors always compare Luke to Anakin and Leia to Padme but I believe Vader and Leia share much more traits than Luke and Vader do.

    Oh, he had a couple hotheaded moments in the OT. And I like that.

    Probably. The super-secret squad was brought into life to find a traitor. I guess sooner or later they will find him and then the super-secret squad isn't needed anymore.
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  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    That begs the question of what was the right thing to do then.

    Given much of the appeal of the OT rests upon the imperfection of the world and characters it portrays, there's a strange and quite alien perfectionism in the EU that runs utterly contrary to it!

    That people look to the fact Luke needed aid from Leia as a bad thing is also quite sad. It's also a kind of scrimping around for something: Oh, you pulled it off? Yeah, but.... It's petty and venal. However imperfect SW is, I'd like to think it's above the kind of corporate office politics carping in its heroes.
  18. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Mara asks Corran to look after Luke in I, Jedi. In Darksaber, she goes to sit with Callista in the mess with the line "So, you're Skywalker's new lady?"
    Callista, who has "heard of past connections between Mara Jade and Luke" confirms and replies with a "I've also heard hints that you might have been interested in Luke yourself at one time." Mara points out that she wantes to kill Luke and still sometimes thinks it would be a good idea and that this isn't a great basis for a long-term relationship, but Callista isn't sure she believes her.

    Chalactan, apparently - same as Depa Billaba. So, yes.

    Indeed they have! :D

    I HAVE to gte my hands in that! Hopefully my hubby's managed to get the issue today!
    'Not a virgin' is definitely a good thing - much more in character with ANH - but not s much with the Marvels and some novels around that time. I've never quite understood where that syness came from :confused:

    Exactly!!!
  19. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    agreed, we seen too much of that and is why I'm looking forward to a reboot of the EU than dreading it.

    yes, it's his job to maintain the continuity where even when a series(LotF) can't follow its own premise.

    I dunno if she included herself, although this was the book where Luke's character was bit inconsistent. I agreed with Luke's hesitancy to believe Vestara was fully committed(and he was proven right) but the execution of his character and his beliefs was much to be desired.

    Zahn's books, a bit from Darksaber are the only things that come to mind.

    Han was the one who started the fight by throwing the punch, Luke simply lifted him one handed and put him in jail ;)

    perhaps you're right, it's not like Luke had time or anticipated that Palpatine was to return. The thing I wish they could have change was perhaps that the whole team was in on Luke's plan, instead of just himself. But then again that line of thought makes me think you're right perhaps mass audiences don't buy Luke as a con man, which means he's the best con man ;)

    do you mean book 6 ? If so how do you enjoy Kathy Tyers characterization of Luke ?

    agreed.

    oh ok, makes sense too since Corran can actually use the Force.

    exactly Mara made a lot of bluster to hide her feelings

    I wonder what's the story with Luke's girlfriend ?
  20. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    U know personally I don't think Anakin deserves not get crapped on in the afterlife. I mean seriously yeah saving Luke was nice but he was also saving his son. I mean seriously Vader actively slaughtered not to mention was complicit in and handing out orders for mass murder on a galactic scale. I am not sure I comfortable with the idea of complete redemption for a traitorous mass murdering child killer. To use DnD at best Anakin can get to neutral in my book.
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    That's why I like Anakin's appearance in TaB - forgiven by the Force he was, but he doesn't think he has earnt or deserves it. That BP develops this further by having him intercede at a critical point for Jacen and again in TUF, are measures of atonement.

    Another way to look at it is generational and Aristotelian, where the worth of an action can be evaluated in terms of its impact down the years. In this case, while Vader killed many, in saving Luke Anakin also ensured billions of future lives would be saved by his son.

    Otherwise, yeah, it's problematic.
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  22. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    I understand the concept of sacrifice a lot to save even more. Although I don't think this is the usual situation such a rule is applied in.
    Still I think I would be more for it if say I thought Anakin was being selfless but you see I just don't see Anakin doing what he did if Luke was not his son. I mean plenty of horrible people in history have drawn the line at not just letting their kids get killed. So adding that to all his past acts of evil, there simply no way I can look on his complete redemption as a good thing. So no I still think he should have gotten the same torture Palpatine gets.

    Also that Jacen stuff probably not even going to relevant when the ST rolls in anyway.
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I'm just giving you options S.

    Though, with that in mind, the easiest option is to fill it under: The Force moves in mysterious frelling ways!

    On the kid point though, most of those people have known their kids since birth, Luke and Vader don't have that relationship. My own take is the Force decided to reward Anakin because he saved Luke without any thought for reward for himself. Which is another reason I don't care for the PT Chosen One prophecy either.
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2013
  24. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    @MasterSkywalker86

    Sorry, I was wrong. I'm currently at part 5 (Agents of Chaos II). In a couple of days I can give you feedback on Tyers characterization.
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  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Ohhh, AOC2 is particularly bad, not just for Luke but others.