Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

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  1. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    think clean thoughts, apprentice [face_shame_on_you] :p


    agreed, also the scene that ID mention about The Last Command really stands out where even Luke's stare could unsettled Mara.
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  2. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    as long as it's not Top Gun ;)
  3. RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Thanks for the info, Kataja. I might look into that. :)
  4. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 6
    MasterSkywalker86:
    Exactly!


    I completely agree. Luke is unselfish. He always puts others and their needs first.







    kataja:
    That's encouraging!

    Okay, I agree that I need to read this SW comic before I criticize what I hear about Luke's role and characterization in it. I need to give the story and the portrayal a chance.


    It's kind of annoying that the two characterizations seem to be in conflict though. Maybe the rewrite of the EU is starting already?

    I've never understood this either. Luke had one whiny comment in ANH and some people seemed to notice nothing else about what Luke did or said in the rest of that film and two others. It makes no sense at all.


    I agree that Luke is "driven by altruistic ideals" and that he has a "compassionate soul. However, where do you get the impression that Luke has a large ego? I've always seen him as quite humble. About the only example I can think of where Luke showed an ego was when Han was sort of putting him down about Luke not being capable of piloting them out of Mos Eisley, and Luke declaring, "I'm not a bad pilot myself". Luke's "ego" in Jabba's palace I saw as pretty much a performance. You don't go into the "Lion's Den" as a frightened mouse if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise, I see Luke as pretty humble, and as one who usually downgrades his abilities and importance.


    I also like the idea that JB mentioned that Luke and Tycho don't want to get too close to Luke and other new Rebels because they're afraid to get too close, knowing that in war, they can lose new friends in the next battle.



    It would be good if we see that in this new comic series.

    Oh, good! I'm glad that you agree!


    As I said, I don't see Luke with that much of an ego. For example, in that radio dramatization of ANH, Luke even tried to hide from his friends the fact that he had been accepted at the Academy even though that proved that he was both smart and a great pilot.


    Well said! I completely agree with everything above. I truly feel that Luke's portrayals in Allegiance and CoO are completely contrary to what we saw in the films and in the other EU. I think they are erroneous characterizations of Luke and make him look really inept, useless, and incompetent. I was very annoyed with Luke's portrayals in both books, and I don't understand why Zahn would write Luke that way. He clearly "got" Luke in TTT.

    And it's not about Luke's Force gifts. Obviously, Luke isn't a Jedi during those books and I don't expect him to accomplish anything with the Force. BUT, I DO expect him to make worthwhile contributions to the story using his other many talents.


    Yes, I loved Luke in that comic also. I really wish that Tom Taylor would write more Luke stories. He obviously loves and understands the character!







    Jedi Ben:
    I *really* like this explanation, JB, for why Wedge would be hesitant to get too close to Luke.








    RK_Striker_JK_5:
    It's a small, one-shot book in comic form, with story and artwork.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    I would really like that, MS.

    I'll second that!


    Okay, that's okay then.

    Yes, they wasted Mara and didn't even give us a good Luke/Ben story afterwards. They didn't give us a satisfying Mara ghost scene either.


    I agree, though I added the Jabba's throne room scene too, but I still say that Luke was mostly "performing" there. As you said, Luke doesn't brag about his abilities or gifts.



    More another time....
  5. kataja Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I think you'd be pleased :)

    Depends a bit about what you mean with a large ego, of course. I mean, he's nothing like Corran at all! :pBut I think one special - and very, very interesting thing - abou Luke is, that he both has this ego and temper - AND at the same time he's the humblest soul possible. I think his ego shows in his incredible will to prove himself, in the way he matches Han Solo in drive and will power, in the way he sets his mind to things, in his temper and stubbornness. The "I'm not such a bad pilot myself" is of course a classic - I mean, how many teens would fire a line like that off to a seasoned man when they'd just gotten their skin saved in a scary new place like the Chalmun's Cantina? But Luke does - and it's because Han is the first guy with an ego like himself he meets - but who's able to brag about his abilities - which just happen to be the same abilities that Luke take pride in, and this, of course, provokes Luke to no end! I think it's hilarious!

    At the same time, he's truly a humble soul - and Yoda's teachings (and probably the war before that) brings out this side of hem even more.This side, pretty soon will be the dominant side of Luke - but in beneath it, there's this little cocky Rogue that comes out on special occations - which is why I think him and Mara is such a good match! Mara's too dominant a woman to fit with someone hasn't a drive that equals her own - and who can't put her in place once in a while!

    But I agree with abve said in that the stunt in Jabba's Palace was but a show. At that point, Luke wouldn't be led by his ego anymore, not at all. And he'd know it would be a weakness. Thing is, actually, that I think Luke pretty quickly learns that a dominant ego is exacty a thing that leads into trouble - and he learns how to control it! Only, around ANH, he hasn't learned that yet, but is eager to shine!

  6. instantdeath Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Luke's definitely got a temper, he just gets better at controlling it as he gets older. Him losing his temper resulted in Darth freaking Vader getting knocked to the ground and literally disarmed. I'm still working my way through the post-ROTJ EU, and while Luke is often portrayed as serene, I feel it's still there. He's kind by default, but mess with his family or his students, and you've made yourself the worst possible enemy you could have.

    There's a part in the ROTJ novel I like, that describes Luke wanting to kill Jabba, wanting to hurt him for what he did to Han and Leia, but the thing that makes him who he is is the fact that he's able to step back from that and offer Jabba mercy, despite his baser instincts not wanting to even do that. He favors his mother in most ways, but he's got some Anakin in him. Unlike Anakin, though, he's capable of reeling his anger in.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Apr 23, 2013
  7. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    Lukes pride in himself shows when he
    ... says he could bullseye womprats with his T-16
    ... his speech to Jabba
    ... smugly smiles after Leia kissed him
    ... tells Vader he's full of surprises

    And there are likely a lot more scenes. I actually like this streak of his a lot and I think without it I wouldn't like Luke so much. Luke isn't super-humble automatically, he has to work on it. He is humble because of choice and not because of low self-esteem.
    I'm not interested in a perfect messianic figure. While Luke does great things and is a great person generally he is still a human with flaws.

    That's one reason I don't like his characterization in NJO much so far. He is so overly humble, so neutered. No bite at all.
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  8. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I dunno Petra, I feel bragging is just to talk big about one's self without any real purpose other than making the braggart feel better. when he said he could target womprats it was more to prove the point that making the trench run is possible, his speech to Jabba was to prove that Jabba made a powerful enemy and might regret that decision, smiling after the kiss ...well what else do you expect ? The comment about full of surprises also seem like a way for Luke to confront his fear of Vader. That said I would say he has a regular ego and has self esteem but it's done in a humble way. he's not a walking doormat as some has written of him. Also he isn't messianic neither is his father, they're human when you get right down to it.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Apr 24, 2013
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  9. kataja Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Exactly! Even when he meets Yoda, Luke's about to get misable out of self-pity - but he learns to get a distance to his own emotions so he won't get ruled by them!


    I so agree! He's actually a complex character - and that's what makes him both human and interesting! I'd add that Luke has a naturally humble side too, though. Side by side with his ego, many of his values are forged by the life he was brought up with - honesty, hard work, basic values. I can see him sneak away from his chores to shoot womp rats (as he does in an Empire comic) or take the long route home to get time with a girl - but he'd eventually get back to get the chores done and he wouldn't do anything he could see would compromise his friends, family or the Rebellion.

    Isn't that pretty natural in an environment where he probably didn't get credits for his talents but was more likely punished for standing out? Also, I think his need to proove hismelf around ANH would be a healthy thing! A question of finally getting the chance to define himself

    It makes no sense to see Luke as a whiny charcater, no. But he does have a special 'whine' nonetheless - one that I, personally, find adorable! His "don't do that!" to Yoda when the little green guy starts to throw his stuff around in ESB is a perfect example of it! And as dew pointed out a few posts ago - Luke can really brood.

    Definitely not a doormat!!!!!!

    But I think @JediBen and @instantdeath made some great point at the I, Jedi thread about Luke post TTT and DE. Getting back to them...
    Last edited by kataja, Apr 24, 2013
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  10. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    Of course you can rationalize it somehow, but imo he does like to brag. If you compare with Han Solo he brags almost as often. Luke is just being more ... subtle about it. And you can't tell me that look on his face after Leia kissed him wasn't totally smug. :p

    And like I said, it makes me like him more. It is only natural that with all his special skills and abilities and accomplishments he would sometimes feel pretty elevated. But Luke is smart enough to know he shouldn't get carried away with those emotions. I also think he learned his lesson when Vader smacked him down in TESB.
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  11. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Boast from Luke in Marvel Star Wars:

    "Yoda said it, Artoo: There is no try! Only do.. or do not! And I mean to do! This can't stop me! Nothing's going to stop me! I'm Luke Skywalker... destroyer of the Death Star! I'm the one who duelled Darth Vader and lived to tell about it!"

    Note that this is in order to provoke an Imperial droid to try and capture him, but still....
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Apr 24, 2013
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  12. JediMatteus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    luke had an ego in rotj, but i think he has been humbled enough , so that he does not have a big ego. I think in FOTJ, luke talked a big game just so the sith would not see any weaknesses.
  13. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    you say rationalize, I say scene in context. tomato...tomato :p As for bragging as much as Han, I sincerely doubt that, you can't out bragged the scoundrel. as for the kiss, like I said what other instant reaction would you get after being kissed by a pretty girl ? :p


    How about if we put this way, Instead of Luke being passive or aggressive he's assertive ;)


    brood for little while and move on. remember he's a man of action.

    that's why his characterization in JAT or NJO doesn't work...and partially in HoT

    that's how I see it too.

    it would make sense, since most of the early Rebellion material came from the Marvel era.

    fans like to nitpick when a character isn't 100% awesome all the time. it can be annoying cause no one is on their A-game all the time. The thing is that Luke's story is a coming of age tale, he's start off a boy unsure of himself and his destiny only to find out he alone can change the fate of the galaxy. Luke's adolescence is a big part of the story and in the sequels as soon becomes more seasoned. Like in ESB we see he's full on Commander mode yet we wouldn't have appreciate it as much if we didn't see how far he progressed since ANH.

    I agree he was deliberately pushing Jabba in the only way that Jabba would be affected. I also will mention he gave Jabba three chances to change his mind, so he applied mercy as well.


    you know that's how real soldiers would act around rookies and replacements like in Band of Brothers. So it would make sense for Wedge's attitude towards Luke.


    I didn't know that.

    If Luke can handle himself in ANH and ESB without relying on the Force, I expect him to handle himself in a book that takes place between the two books.

    that really shows that Del-Rey has no direction other than a cash grab and character death
  14. DarthJenari Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Really the only place where Luke's ego ever really, absolutely, 100% no excuse shined through to me was in ROTJ when he was talking down to Jabba. In ANH, he only said what he did about womp rats to point out that it wasn't impossible, that if he could make a shot anyone else could make a shot. I haven't seen ESTB in some time, but I don't remember his smile being smug. Surprised, happy, and nonchalant come to mind though. I have to agree with @MasterSkywalker86 there's a very large difference between bragging and then just owning up to how great you are at something in conversation. If I say, went toe to toe with Darth Bane in a lightsaber duel, and was later teaching students and then questioned on my competence in the subject of dueling, i'd point that moment out as a show of my skills. I wouldn't call that bragging, because I didn't go out of my way to say it, but was saying it for another person's benefit, to make them feel better more than anything. Which is how I view the womp rat comment. People were doubting the shot could be made, when it could, and morale was down while a giant moon sized station was on the way to blow them all away. Luke basically countered all those doubts by saying it wasn't absolutely impossible, that it had been done, and what's more he didn't even seem to be thinking about it that much when he said, just instantly reacting to what someone else was saying.

    EDIT: Man I haven't posted in this thread in a long time lol it moves as fast as ever.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Apr 24, 2013
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  15. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I would even go one further and say Luke wasn't bragging in Jabba's Palace but he was passively threatening the Hutt to free his friends or else.
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  16. RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Luke's got an ego. Almost everyone has an ego.
  17. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    also a id, and a super ego. :p what we're trying to say is he isn't a braggart
  18. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    news from the Zahn thread:

    -Apparently a freeze has been put on any, at least for him, books for the Expanded Universe beyond Return of the Jedi, and probably for all the other authors.
    -When asked he simply said that with Walt Disney taking over LucasFilm, no one (I'm assuming he means the other SW authors) knows what will happen with the EU and was frank in saying that Walt Disney may completely do away with the EU in light of the new SW movies coming out in 2015.

    ok maybe not exactly anything new but it's nice to hear a confirmation on our suspicions
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Apr 24, 2013
  19. RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Agreed. ;)

    Thanks for the news. Makes complete sense, too.
  20. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    the news makes me happy [face_dancing]
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Apr 24, 2013
  21. VanishingReality Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Bahaha I think that even his bragging would be awkward and unintentionally hilarious.
    I was reading Jedi Search and during Leia's training, she just finally got tired of it and told him off, yelling at him to stop quoting Yoda.
    It's true that I never read Leia or any other Star Wars characters quoting anyone else, but Luke is near-constantly quoting Yoda or Ben.
  22. kataja Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Yuk, she's my sister? O:)
  23. RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    She wasn't back then. :p
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  24. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 6
    kataja:
    While Luke does have a temper now and then, I don't think that Luke's temper is anything like Leia's or Mara's. I think it takes more to make him mad, and he's usually better at controlling it than most. But someone putting friends or family at risk *does* tend to usually be the cause of that temper.







    Jedi Ben:
    No, I don't think it has, and that's one story I *would* like to see told.








    dewback_rancher:
    Yes, I don't doubt it. As I said in an earlier post, they saved one another's lives during that Death star run and I can see that bonding them forever. That's why I was sort of surprised that the two of them don't seem very close in the new SW comics from what I understand. JB's comment though about Wedge probably not wanting to get too close to Luke or any of the other new recruits because he was afraid that they might be lost in the next battle, causing even more hurt, made a lot of sense.

    But I would like to read a story about Luke and Wedge growing closer and working together after the Death Star Battle.







    Kataja:
    Yes! I'd say that you are are resident expert! ;)



    Maybe we have different definitions of "ego" then, because I've always felt that Luke is basically pretty humble. He knows he has abilities, but he doesn't brag about them and he usually downplays them and his importance and accomplishments. He doesn't go around claiming to be this big hero, even though he *is*. He doesn't keep bringing up all of his achievements, even though there are many.

    I think of that as "determination", not as bragging; not as being egotistic.


    Now this, I can agree with!

    Would you really say that Luke was ever cocky in an X-wing though?

    Even in VP when so many were doing that race in the asteroid belt, Luke didn't, even though we found out when he went in to rescue Han and Chewie, that Luke was so good that he would have beaten everyone.

    Even though he was a great pilot, he took the flight tests every year like everyone else as we found out from Mara's thoughts in BP.

    I guess I just don't see Luke with a huge ego. I think he's pretty humble.








    instantdeath:
    As you said, Luke is able to "reel in" his anger which Anakin couldn't. I do feel that Luke is a lot more like Padme than Anakin though, while Leia is more like their father.








    Darth_Pevra:
    I don't think he was demonstrating pride there though. He was just confirming that it was possible to make the shot on the Death Star when most of the pilots around him thought it seemed pretty impossible. He was showing his optimistic side; not his pride in his abilities.


    As I've said before, I think most of what Luke said in Jabba's palace was a performance. In facing a criminal warlord one can't act like a timid mouse. He needed to give a strong, confident impression.


    That was more to annoy Han than anything else, I think, just as Leia's kiss was meant to annoy Han. ;) Plus, he really did have feelings for Leia and WAS happy that she had kissed him.


    Okay. I'll give you that one! :p (But again, Luke might have been trying to approach Vader from a position of strength and not show any fear.)

    Now *this* I agree with! Luke *does* choose to be humble and he *doesn't* have low self-esteem, I don't think. It's just that he downplays his abilities and his accomplishments to others. He doesn't brag about them. That doesn't mean that he has esteem issues. He just doesn't want to flaunt his abilities and achievements.

    I think we probably all agree about that.







    MasterSkywalker86
    Yes, I agree.







    kataja:
    We are in agreement about this...

    That was a really cute scene!

    I don't see that as the same thing as whining though.








    Iron_lord:
    I'm intrigued! Luke said that to try to capture an Imperial droid? How would what he said to Artoo help him capture the droid????







    JediMatteus:
    I agree with that.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    LOL! Good point, MS! I would say it's a normal reaction for a young man after being kissed by a girl that he was quite interested in...


    Yep!


    That's a great insight, MS!


    You would think so, wouldn't you? That's why I am so annoyed by Luke's characterizations in Allegiance and CoO.








    DarthJenari:
    Even there, I saw it as more of a "performance" than anything else.

    Welcome back, DJ!!!! :)


    Yes, I agree. Luke wasn't bragging here at all. He was just bringing some optimism into the conversation by saying that something similar had been done already.


    More another time...
  25. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 6
    Continuing from where I left off yesterday:



    MasterSkywalker86 :
    Exactly!

    Yes, I saw that. I wonder if this means that Crucible and the Jaina-centered books are "frozen" and not in production at the moment?


    I hope they do away with the EU after SQ. The books after that turned the galaxy into a place where there was no more hope or optimism, and most of the Luke characterizations were pretty awful.







    Vanishing:
    True. That's another thing we have to blame the authors for. Apparently, they don't want to think of their own ideas for explaining the Force and Jedi training, so they just have Luke keep repeating Yoda and Ben.
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