Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

There's a difference between repression/not showing emotions and a natural lack of empathy as psychopaths have it. The hypothetical business woman you speak of would shove certain emotions to the side, but she would still experience them. Powerful women in the media however are often displayed as emotionless automatons/almost psychopaths.

Examples: Black Widow in Avengers, River Tam in Firefly
Another example: I just read Anakins death scene in star by stars and Mara demonstrates no sadness whatsoever, all she cares about is her own flesh and blood. A bad scene.

 

I personally would call that scene a horrid piece of dreck... and other words that would rip the TOS apart.

 

Star by Star as quoted by JB represents the best and worst of the series, Mara would be devasted as any member of the Skywalker/Solos would

River is more of a subject of having scientists worked on her mind and messing her up then being a cold robot of her own accord. They basically make her into a weapon, once she regains control of her mind in Serenity she is shown to be emotional and protective of her family.
Black Widow certainly comes off as emotionless but Avengers has only started in peeling back the layers to her character and the comics have demonstrated her as being an emotional social character

To tie this back to Luke, I think it was Luke's interactions with Mara/friendship that went a long way to opening her up. It goes to demonstrate that Luke can makes friends with his enemies, in this case end up marrying them

 

MasterSkywalker86:

Yes, I agree that the injury is a plot device. My worry is that they will have it be a recurring plot device to keep Luke from achieving any amazing feats from now on. They have said over and over that they consider Luke to be too powerful. I absolutely don't agree with that, but since this is the way THEY feel about Luke, I fear that they may use this Force injury to keep Luke from ever becoming powerful in the future.

Yes, but Krayt has had to spend a LOT of time in healing trances and in stasis. For all we know, he might have found a really powerful healer Jedi at some point before the time of the Legacy comics that helped cure him. Plus, Krayt was never supposed to be as powerful as Luke. It was also hinted that perhaps Luke's injury was worse than Krayt's. Since Luke took the brunt of Abeloth's attack, that's entirely possible.







dewback_rancher:

I don't want them to get rid of all of the EU, Dew. I think that VotF was a great book that gave us a positive, optimistic feel for the future, and Survivor's Quest was a nice mystery/adventure story. I would like to keep the EU up to that point. But starting with the NJO and continuing through DN, LotF, and FotJ, the story started to get darker and darker and more and more pessimistic and, for me at least, unsatisfying. Luke's characterizations went downhill from the end of SQ too, in my opinion. So, I really wouldn't mind having the ST overwrite the EU starting with the NJO.

They can delete a few others, like Crystal Star as well.








Darth_Pevra :

I agree about all of that. I wonder why none of the authors has written a story where Leia is involved in a fall/near fall to the darkside? I think with her anger/temper problems, a darkside struggle for Leia would be believable.








kataja:

Maybe because when he *is* angry he has good reason to be?

I can accept that.

I can agree with that. Luke does have a sense of humor too, so I could see him do this for fun, especially with someone like Han.

I've now read most of the early Marvel comics which cover that early period, but I don't remember him being particularly cocky in the X-wing.

But again, when he had the perfect opportunity in VP, when Kyp and Jaina and so many other Jedi were doing that Asteroid Belt run (was it called Lando's Folly?) Luke chose NOT to participate even though he actually would have won, as we were shown when Luke went into the asteroid belt to save Han and Chewie without any shields on his ship. So, to me, Luke seems to be pretty humble.








MasterSkywalker86:

At least we could be assured of a good Luke characterization, I think. I'd like to see Tom Taylor given a chance to write a Luke novel as well. I also wish that they would give Kathy Tyers another SW book. She's a Luke fan too, and it definitely shows in her writing and in her characterization of Luke.

Yes, I think Mara made a really good wife and life-partner for Luke. I'm disappointed that they didn't get to have more stories focused on them after their marriage. I really liked the way they had adventures/solved mysteries together in VotF and SQ. They made a great team. I would have liked more books like those two.

I don't understand it either. Instead, everyone picked on the more even-keel Luke who doesn't have as much of a temper. It took a lot to make Luke really angry... like Vader threatening to turn his sister to the dark side. Leia has a much shorter fuse, I think.

Exactly!!!!! And Luke only became a Jedi Knight at the very end of RotJ, so he would gain even more self-control after that.

I'm sure that's true.

Yes, Luke is always willing to give everyone a second chance and the benefit of the doubt... well, except for Vestara at first.... In the end though, Luke was right to be wary of Vestara. Too bad he changed his mind and gave her that chance right before she betrayed him and everyone else...






RK_Striker_JK_5:

That's an excellent point, and a great way of looking at it, Striker!

 

They certainly have a funny way of showing his power if they consider him all powerful why does he get handicapped/injured all the time ? there is like 60/40 ratio of Luke being handicapped and injured in the entirety of EU. One of the biggest misinterpretations in EU is the overpowered Luke.There are ways to handle powerful characters and involve everyone of different abilities in a story without limiting the character's abilities. They also wanted to kill him for that reason I believe, not a good sign for the publisher when they basically want to kill the heart of Star Wars due to difficulty in creative thinking

Krayt is not at the Emperor's level(at least not in FOTJ) and definitely not on Luke's, I think Krayt maybe could have grown to become an Emperor level threat hence the need for Cade to defeat him. As for the injuries both characters attain same size punctures/holes on their upper body. Remember Abeloth use her tentacles to rip apart a piece of their Force presence.

I think he had a conversation with Wedge about how he hadn't destroyed a Death Star in a long time, it was pretty humorous but I don't remember which book.

Tom Taylor gets Luke and Superman, I think he could do Cap as well since he understands idealistic/optimistic heroes. He also doesn't limit their abilities(also thankful that Randy Stradley heard the complaints of Luke in NJO and allowed us to see Luke's power) To have him write a book would be great, I'm not sold on Tyers but I like how she spoke up for Luke at the time of NJO's planning.

she was definitely more emotional

he seem to have great self control in RotJ

he should have stick with his instincts, there was a reason why he doubted Vestara and he was proven right.

 

....that moment when it finally hits you that you're older than Luke Skywalker in ROTJ... AKA one of your childhood heroes...

I'm 27, turning 28 this October... holy CRAP where did the years go?!? Heck I'm almost as old as Han in ANH!

Wow... I could call Luke "Kid" if I wanted to now. Heh.

^Forgive the above tired, late-night Luke-related ramblings. XD

 

After the first book of Jedi Academy Jedi Search, I can't help but wonder if Luke founded the New Jedi Order more for loneliness than he did for any obligation to restore the Knighthood or protect the galaxy. Especially since he never saw the Jedi in that 'guardian' capacity before. He’s the only force sensitive left in the New Republic, aside from Leia who wasn’t really using the force.

He seems to have a serious fear that he’s going to alienate everyone with his powers and considering he can manipulate people’s minds to some degree, and read thoughts/emotions, etc. it’s not unfounded. (Like once Han yelled at him for calming him down against his will). It doesn’t help that the vast majority outside his small circle of friends distrust or outright hate him for being a Jedi, like the people in Eol Sha instantly called him a demon, etc. He’s been training alone for almost a decade before 11 ABY when he started searching.

I can kind of see why during the Republic/Clone Wars-Era, the Jedi all of stuck together since infants, and had solidarity like their own society. The problem was they kind of created a bubble which kept non-force sensitives out.

 

River was shown as very cold and unfriendly in the flashback scenes too. Anyways, she and Black Widow are just representations of how "strong female women" are often portrayed in the media nowadays. As somewhat soulless.

While the male heroes usually get their "rescuing kittens scene" early on to establish they are good guys, this is often ignored with the women. Weird.

Mara is written like all over the place. Sometimes she is genuinely nice, like when she teaches Anakin how to find a Vong spy in a restaurant, other times she is cold as ice and super-controlling of Luke. I must admit it irritates me she often calls Luke "Skywalker". I know it is some sort of running gag between the two, but if you call someone with the last name it implies distancing yourself from him/her. Shouldn't she call him Luke at least sometimes?

 

I've been wondering something about the whole abstinence factor that Lucas created for the Old Republic Jedi. I can understand not wanting to form superficial attachments because that can lead to jealousy and other undesirable emotions, but how are the Jedi supposed to grow or even maintain numbers if they don't allow their own members to procreate? Even with the vast population of the galaxy it seems eventually they would dwindle down to some number that they wouldn't be able to do their job as guardians. Perhaps this is even evident at the fall of the Republic, for if they had stronger numbers they would have been able to overcome any sort of purging actions a Sith organization is likely to follow. Remember the very nature of the Sith eats itself up as followers try to usurp their masters. Indeed, even Darth Bane's Rule of Two should keep their numbers at a size manageable for the Jedi order.

 

Ah, it was no attachments, therefore a Jedi Master can have as many one-night stands and bastards as he or she likes!

Nice to see it isn't just me who's befuddled by the various portraits of female characters across various stories. And yeah, for a book that summarises the good, the bad and the ugly of NJO SbS is it.

I suppose I should throw in here I'm not ever that interested by your standard alpha male hero type character, thus I'm not going to be impressed by alpha females who are mirrors of that. Plus I can't but see that kind of bravado as a mask for insecurity, if you have confidence or authority then you don't need to engage in displays, it'll come out in how you act anyway. I really like DP and MS' Caring For Kittens character scene concept and what characters do and don't get it in gender terms, it's an interesting observation.

One thing I end up doing sometimes is flipping behavior, if character X was the opposite how would their behavior appear? Would Leia's acid comments come across as harsh and aggressive? Much as I enjoy the scene because she's been cruising for a bruising for the bulk of the book, would Mara's verbal smacking of Jaina in BP be seen as too vicious?

And returning to SbS - why shouldn't Luke have gotten immensely hacked off over the death of his nephew? Once you start looking at this stuff it becomes a very complex stew of confusion and good intent gone badly awry.

 

I would disagree pretty heavily that River is portrayed as cold and unfriendly pre-Academy. Socially awkward? Absolutely. But the closest she gets to unfriendly is correcting her brother and the textbook's errors, and that's more a byproduct of her being a teasing little sister than anything else. The flashback in Serenity, where she claims that some people don't like to be meddled with to a self-righteous teacher, strikes me as something as far away from "cold" as you can get; it's remarkably considerate, especially considering the Alliance's assimilating nature. The R.Tam sessions (special on the Serenity DVD) show the transition quite clearly; she goes from a shy, yet friendly prodigy to a broken, mentally unstable killer ("I need to write it down").

But yes, "strong women" characters do tend to be portrayed as somewhat emotionless, more so than male characters. It's most likely that this is simply reflecting reality, or at least, reflecting the prejudices of reality. Though I do believe the concept of "gender roles" are rapidly disappearing (good riddance), they are still firmly ingrained in the social psyche. There's still that stigma that, if a woman shows emotion, she's an emotional wreck. It's why so many female military officers report that they have to act tougher than the males if they want to earn any respect. Many of them will even go as far as to consciously lower their voices an octave or two when addressing their peers or superiors.

"Strong male characters", however, are legion. As long as stories have been told, they've always been there. Since Beowulf, there's always been this "strong, unstoppable he-man" archetype, which is why I believe that trope is played with a lot in modern stories, either with these characters shown to have a "heart of gold" (rescuing kittens), or not being as emotionally stable as they put on (a good example would be 24's Jack Bauer breaking down into tears at the end of one of the seasons).

It is weird, as you say, but I believe it has some basis in reality. It is certainly telling, though, when a flawed male hero can get away with being called a strong hero, yet a flawed female hero is much more likely to be called out for it.

 

What constitutes strength and how is it exhibited?

That's changing all the time but stereotypes tend to be resistant to it - hence you have claims that more female traders would have avoided the big 2008 crash. My inclination is to say that's rubbish, they would have had the same outlook and values, what caused the crash was not strictly determined by gender. And I'd be inclined to see any woman who enters the super-macho environment of the trading floor to be of the same mindset of those she's joining!

With Thatcher recently dying, a load of quotes from her have done the rounds, one of them being:

If we really want things to change, outlooks like this have to go! It's more than likely that the world would be better with more female leaders, but only of the right variety - a mirror of the alpha git tendency isn't going to help anyone. I'd love to reform the House of Commons and force the entire lot of them to grow the hell up, on pain of dismissal and loss of benefits, it's probably never going to happen though.

 

I like Angela Merkel. She is pragmatic, yet idealistic.

I hate Serenity. Watched it one time and wanted to forget about it.

And we shouldn't forget that her being nice to her brother can also be seen as selfish as she knows she is completely dependent on him. Without him, she is a barely functional individual, even as a kid. I doubt anyone in school or workplace would put up with her behavior for long.

If someone breaks down or snaps or has nightmares that can evidence empathy too, as it shows they are affected by all the bad things they see happening to other people.

 

Yuck, Thatcher

 

That has very little basis in the series, and the R. Tam sessions all but confirm that isn't the case. They were close, but by all evidence River's greatest problem was shyness and the occasional difficulty in articulating her thoughts. She wasn't dependent on him to the extent that she is post-Academy. And even if she was, I'd argue that doesn't even come close to revealing some Machiavellian tendency to use people. As someone with a younger sibling myself, it's not at all uncommon for someone to spend more time with their older sibling than with their parents or even with friends. That kind of behavior isn't selfish, it's normal.

In fact, while we're on this subject, I'd argue that River is the polar opposite to the "emotionless strong woman" archetype, in that she's directly ruled and impeded by unstable emotions. Remember, she had most of her amygdala removed, a piece of the brain that plays a large role in suppressing emotion and possibly in thought structuring. The only time she takes on the "emotionless" role is when her programming kicks in, which, of course, is the exact purpose.

But Luke's over 60 now, and who knows how old he'll be in the ST

 

You don't think playing the victim card 24/7 is manipulative? Her relationship to her brother is obvious co-dependency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-dependency

Maybe one of the problems I have with River is that she is so obviously created to pull the audiences strings for sympathy. Then she is given magics in a universe that has no magics to show that how "awesome" she is because she has no actual positive personality traits.

 

Because, from their perspective, the handicap/injury is needed to bring Luke down to a "manageable" level of power for the story to work.

 

Pre-academy, which is what I was talking about, there is no evidence of co-dependency of any kind. In the series proper, River herself never "plays the victim card"; it's always Simon that exerts the overbearing, protective role. Co-dependence implies a psychological addiction. There's a difference between ongoing, chronic co-dependence and the natural tendency to latch on to known variables following events of great trauma. The removal of such a vital portion of the brain certainly qualifies as trauma, and is something that would have an adverse effect on a persons thought processes. It's doubtful that she could conjure up the focus to be consciously selfish

Removed from context, can River's reliance on others be seen as selfish? Sure, but only in the same way that a cancer victim's reliance on their spouse can be seen as selfish. You're relying on others, effecting their lives for the worse... but a good spouse will stand by you anyway, because they're there to make your life better. In this very fictional instance, the brother willfully gives up everything to save his sister. And here's the most important part; we see, many times throughout the series, that River feels guilty for that (in "Ariel" and "Safe", if I recall correctly), but Simon recognizes that doing anything less would be a failing on his part, not on her part. To call her actions willfully selfish, I believe, is a very Objectivism point of view. I intensely despise Objectivism.

But we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. We're not supposed to get too off-topic in here, have had some episodes in the past . You're welcome to reply, but I'll cut off my end of the debate here.

 

But those sobbing breakdowns may well be her playing the victim card, no? She makes pretty clear in the early episodes that if Simon isn't there for her 24/7 bad things will happen.

When does she over do anything for others except for her brother (who she is completely depends upon)? When she fights, it is to protect herself. She doesn't spend emotional support and has no kind words for anybody 'cept her brother.

My Granny has also huge mental problems but at least she is genuinely nice.

As for Trauma PTSD sufferers are usually aloof and don't want to depend on others. Mara Jade is an example, Darth Vader definitely too. Having been in a position of absolute helplessness you usually want to avoid being helpless as much as possible, you're deathly afraid of it. Mara is definitely afraid of being abused again which is one interesting aspect of her personality.

 

I haven't had my cup of coffee and we already have a Firefly debate, feminism, strong women, and Old Republic ethics topics...

That's fine and dandy for every once in a while, the problem is there is plenty of stories where they do that to Luke already. In fact it's feels like there is 60/40 ratio of them injuring/handicapping Luke. I could list them off but the recent examples of NJO, Lotf, and FotJ already do the job for me.

ah but as ID mention Luke will be in his 60's by the time of ST or at least 58

sorry I don't see it, it doesn't help either that the only flashbacks we get of River is with Simon or the class in the film. So it's hard to say if she was cold to others aside of her family. I don't think she was. Any who when I think of Ice queens or souless women I picture Emma Frost or Mystique more villain types than actual super heroines.

I think it's more of a problem that we hardly get enough female leads starring in action/superhero films. The last film I can think of that that had a female lead who had her "rescuing kitten scene" was Salt with Angelina Jolie...but that was a while ago. As for Superhero films both DC and Marvel(I don't blamed Marvel Studios but more of Fox) have issues with getting their Superheroines characters set into a live action film. WB is apparently afraid of doing a Wonder Woman film as it's difficult to do a myth/superhero film....but if Thor is a success why not Wonder Woman ? Or why not try at making Batgirl or Supergirl good ? Antman will most likely have Wasp, but I'm hoping that Marvel makes Captain Marvel/MS. Marvel film with Carol Danvers to give us a good superheroine film on a character that the mass audience doesn't know about.

Most of the other Female hero films have been terrible both to the character and as a film, Red Sonja, Elektra, and Catwoman come to mind.

I agree, her characterization on NJO varied and it's no surprise when you have 14-18 authors writing her in that series. Hell Sacrifice, was the biggest screw you to the character and the fans as Mara was very unMara like way in going after Jacen, basically making rookie mistakes. As for Mara calling her Skywalker or Farmboy, it's a term of affection between the two since HttE and there are plenty of times where she calls him Luke. HoT, SQ, DN, and TUF etc.

I'm very happy that Luke's Order did away with that rule, I hope in ST they also explain that to deny love is to deny one of the main aspects of the light side of the Force.

.

It gets worse for Jaina in DN and LotF as well. First in DN she loses her mind due to the Killiks and is under their thrall then in Lotf where she regains her wits she becomes the object of desire in a love triangle that would shame Twilight.

what's an example of the standard alpha hero JB ? As I mention I see Luke as the optimistic/idealist hero

I think hearing Mara tell Luke don't get angry right after Anakin's death ruin that scene for me. Anger leads to the dark side.....but it's not of the DS of it's own accord. One of the things the OJO fail on or refuse to teach is the coping of emotions when a loved one has passed away. There should be some emotion, a emotional outburst, I refuse to believe that a jedi will remain stoic when their wife, sister, brother, kid, etc died but afterwards the point is life continues on and you can either live with it and remember the individual or you obsess over it and lose yourself sort of speak.

 

*thumbs up*
I'm partial to the X-Men because they include interesting female heroes too, like Rogue or Storm.

I couldn't agree more. Imo allowing yourself some emotions is very important to cope with traumatic events. So there's nothing wrong with a little shouting or shaking your fists at the sun. The trick is in not getting carried away with it. And of course one should be wary of using the force in a state of anger.
I believe that Luke for the most part has this down. He allows himself to feel emotions but he doesn't let them control him (though he struggles during his time as Padawan, of course). It seems a much wiser approach than that of his masters.

 

a great thing about X-men is that the women were probably the more powerful members of the team, Storm could call on the weather, Jean was like a jedi with telekinesis powers, and Rogue had the Ms. Marvel strength for a great bit. Also I believe Storm was team leader as well and Jean was headmaster at one point. also another thing I am in favor of is racial diversity on the team...while I don't recall any Spanish/Latino X-men(there are few Hispanic heroes in the superhero community and I am disappointed by that) there were Canadians, Russians, Germans, Cajuns, English, Japanese, and Native Americans on the team. Although X-men nowadays is hard to keep up with/get into. I hope Avengers 2 adds more diversity with more women heroes and more diverse backgrounds like Black Panther, Luke Cage, Echo, etc.

ok back to topic

Exactly when it comes down to it, it's all about balance.

 

MasterSkywalker86 :

I completely agree!

Yes, isn't that ridiculous????!!!! Kill an iconic character because they can't be bothered to do some creative thinking??!!!! One of the most important traits of an author should be a strong ability to think creatively.

True, but wasn't Krayt doing his best to get Luke to bear the brunt of Abeloth's attacks throughout most of their fight?

Which I feel too many other authors do. I would love to have Tom Taylor write a Luke novel!

I'm really grateful to Kathy Tyers. If it hadn't been for Kathy Tyers, Luke and Mara might never have had a child.

Definitely!

Yes, it looks like Luke's initial instincts about Vestara were correct.









dewback_rancher:

!

LOL! Sadly, I'll always be older than you, Dew. And Luke will be older than you again in the ST...







VanishingReality:

Well, stopping loneliness might have been a secondary benefit for Luke, but we do know that Luke founded the NJO to protect the galaxy. After the events of DE, Luke came to realize that the Jedi were needed to stand against darkness, and that he couldn't do everything himself. That's when he decided he needed to set up the Jedi Academy and start training Jedi knights.

A large part of the reason that Luke didn't start to restore the Order earlier was because he feared causing another Darth Vader to be unleashed on the galaxy. There were several books in which it was mentioned that Luke would get nervous thinking about training others. But after DE, Luke realized he didn't have a choice. The Jedi were needed and he was the only one who could train more Jedi for the galaxy.

 

Wait, how old is Han in ANH? Because at 34 I am definitely older than Luke in ANH by almost twice his age.

 

IIRC Han was 29 in ANH.

I'm 27, turning 28 this October. Hence, almost as old as Han in ANH.