Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    just saw the message Child, I didn't know Hope as much as the others but she was great poster who expressed her thoughts eloquently on SOS, may she rest in peace.@};- My prayers go out to her family.

    will answer your post tomorrow Child
  2. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    Aw man... hate to hear of the passing of a great fan from a community I'm part of, even if I didn't know the person well at all. :_|

    May Hope RIP and all condolences to, and prayers with, her loved ones!
  3. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Boba Fett is definitely one of those characters that benefited from the EU, or at least a portion of it (namely, Moran's contributions). He's a clown in the movies. I still find that shot you're referring to hilarious; he misses by a mile. Could give stormtroopers a run for their money. Personally, I'm glad the EU didn't take this depiction as holy gospel (Lucas himself seemed to regret it, as he certainly made Jango much more formidable in the prequels). If that's the number one bounty hunter in the galaxy, it really doesn't speak for everyone else living in it :oops:

    Still, in defense of the "get in close" tactic, Fett has been shown to be able to disarm Jedi Masters without too much trouble (Kota in the Force Unleashed)... maybe he felt he could try that on Luke?
    Last edited by instantdeath, May 5, 2013
  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    :eek: :_|:( Awww, that's sad news about Hope - really enjoyed reading whatever she posted.

    re: Luke and early NJO - it's the 4-6 months of AOC that is really beyond a fan fix - before then we have VP-DT, where his caution has merit as the Jedi learn more of their new adversaries carefully, but still lose 2% of their number in the process. He's active in BP and his focus in EOV is on supporting the refugees via the great river network he sets up and then, from SBS he's more active and stays that way for the rest of the series, but with varying portrayals. But AOC-JE, he's engaged in deep contemplation while he knows many people are being hit and dying and decides it's a good idea to let his nephews fire Centerpoint? Uh, what? I've really liked the rest of Luceno's work but JE was a stinker!
    kataja and MasterSkywalker86 like this.
  5. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    not to mention Jacen also could hide his presence from others just as Palpatine could.

    I hope they give the character a more optimistic back story in ST then what we received in the books. I mean I can not imagine that Ben would go through PTSD when he was 12. When I was 12 I still very much a child, playing with figures(Star Wars and superheroes of course)and generally no worries while gradually understanding the ethics and complexities of life. Ben on the other hand lost his childhood and became an adult at the age of 14

    well that's pretty impressive, the only problem is that most of us drop ship at that point.

    agreed :)

    haha, exactly. Also bold is the definitive word for Luke and his plan.

    pssh....Child it's the helmet :p

    I would imagine Han would by now already change his mind by the end of the OT. Heck before the battle of Yavin he told Luke may the Force be with you.

    sad thing is they couldn't figure out the obvious thing to do with Luke but they sure as hell held him back in numerous ways.
  6. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86 :
    Yes, she really did. I'm going to miss her. She was a sweet, gentle soul who loved her family, Star Wars in general, and Luke in particular. It's too bad that she won't be able to discuss the ST with us.







    instantdeath:
    If so, big mistake, I'd say! ;)







    Jedi Ben:
    So did I. It's too bad that things were so terrible in the books that she didn't even want to discuss them much anymore.



    Exactly!!! It made no sense that Luke would sit by and let horrible things happen in the galaxy and do nothing about them.








    MasterSkywalker86 :

    That's a good point, MS! Maybe that's why so many people feel that Luke didn't do anything to try to redeem Jacen: They left before they read about any of those attempts. They also don't seem to realize that there was such a short amount of time in-universe from Betrayal to Invincible. It took two or three years for all nine books to be published and released.


    Yes, I certainly think so!

    LOL! I see.... Frankly, that's never done much for me. The rocket pack didn't do much either.

    So true!
    instantdeath likes this.
  7. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Sad news about Hope, RIP and condolences to the friends and family.

    I never understand why in some topics Luke seems to get a lot of the blame for the whole Jacen mess. Sure, Luke maybe could have reined in his nephew more, but then people probably would have complained about Luke being too overbearing. Luke declaring himself king of the Jedi in DNT went over so well after all.

    Its hard to defend anyone, since it was such an awful storyline with really odd progression (Jaina needs to go get training from Mandalorians of all people instead of her extended family and the Jedi Council?) and a horrible ending, but still, Luke solved the galactic crisis, as usual. Not that anyone was grateful. Really, considering who ended up Chief of State, that alone should be unequivocal proof that the Jedi don't interfere too much with politics. Well, no more than necessary. I know Destiny's Way is a somewhat good book, especially by NJO standards, but still, it basically comes down to the good guys... smoothing out the political process to end up with a better leader. It took a really dire situation for them to do so, but still, would have been nice to have seen that kind of handling of the Senate 10 books ago.

    Luke allowed Centerpoint? Huh, only vaguely remember that book to be honest. Its a Luceno book (I think?), but Jacen whining allowing to Thracken shove Anakin over were when I lost patience with the character and the NJO to be honest.

    I prefer the Tag and Binks version of events for why Boba was such a lousy shot. Skywhacker, or something like that. [face_laugh] The EU has done Boba a lot of good (too much, perhaps, there were rumors or maybe it was confirmed that 1313 had shifted to having Boba as the main character, rather than those two in the first trailer, and not sure that would be a good thing, well, before 1313 and Lucasarts in general were shut down). Although the EU also has Boba escaping the sarlacc multiple times (and apparently being thrown back in at least once), so its not all good....

    By the way, haven't kept up with the current pages, but did anyone read the new Vader's Little Princess? Same author and so same type of book as the Vader and Son book, so its adorable and Luke makes a few appearances, so its a great book.
    Last edited by Nobody145, May 6, 2013
  8. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    well, from wqhat Lucas has said, and the fact that Bad Robot, is ignoring the books, we can expect Luke to be a single guy, and everything we've read since 1991 isn't going to count anymore, are you looking forward to seeing a Luke who is just as much a monk, as a knight.
  9. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Save that we don't know if Luke will be a single guy or not. All I know is that EU hasnt been good for Luke in over an decade. I don't think the ST will have to struggle to give Luke a decent characterization when the bar has been set so low.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 7, 2013
    VanishingReality and Darth_Pevra like this.
  10. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    bad robot is in charge of that, let's tell them what we want, there number is 1 310 664 3456
    if we don't let tmem know, then we might not like what we get. When was the last person here willing to call Lucasfilm, Del Rey, snd Bad Robot
    Star Wars fans have to be clear with them, or we'll keep getting crap, with the Star Wars name on it.
  11. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Nobody145 :
    For some reason, it seems that whatever Luke does or doesn't do, he gets blamed anyway. He can't seem to win no matter what....

    But you're right, Luke wasn't responsible for "the Jacen mess". JACEN was responsible for the "Jacen mess". It wasn't like he was a child or a teenager. He was in his thirties, for heaven's sake! He made his own terrible choices. No one made them for him and no one forced him to do anything. And since he did many of his terrible things in secret (like killing Nelani), how was Luke supposed to know early on that his beloved, trusted, heroic nephew had gone rogue?

    Hmmm... Did Luke EVER find out that Jacen killed poor Nelani? As far as I can recall, I don't think he did...


    Yes, that was absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!!!

    Yes, and he was convicted and exiled for his efforts and sacrifices. :(:mad:



    No, I haven't seen that one, though I did get the Vader and Son book. It was very cute!








    alex feola:
    Not necessarily. Lucas changes his mind all the time. I think they would be limiting their future stories by not having Luke marry and have children. I would also hate to see the Skywalker name die out with Luke.








    MasterSkywalker86:
    I agree with both statements.








    alex feola:
    While I've never phoned Lucasfilm, Del Rey, or Bad Robot, I did send e-mail messages to Shelly Shapiro after every NJO book and some of the LotF books, letting her know how I felt about the books in general and Luke's characterization in particular. ( I was not happy with most of the books or characterizations.) I finally gave up, because except for TUF, things didn't improve anyway.
    Last edited by ChildOfWinds, May 7, 2013
  12. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    she will be missed.

    I know I didn't read from Fury on....Inferno while it was definitely made for Luke fans it did little to redeem the damage that the other books did.

    haha, well people dig the armored mercenary type. Me I like the Jedi look, it's unique enough that's a trademark to the series and moving boulders and ships with your mind is so awesome.

    Jacen was an adult who made his choice, you can be sympathetic to a point but the blame solely falls upon on the one that made the choice despite the reasons. He killed an innocent to "save" his uncle, it basically dictated the path he would follow.

    that's very true
  13. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    May Hope RIP @};-

    Never! And if he has, it was some writer's mistake.

    This is quite an important detail, I think.. When the books came, the time between them, wastly exceeded the time covered in the story - this just didn't work well together! I'm inclined to think taht LOTF would work much better as a re-read. Or indeed for a first-time reader!

    Then it must be great, indeed! :D

    Ok, sorry, couldn't resist. It IS a great book! I haven't rtead it all through, yet, but I'll buy it soon.


    I noted that George Lucas 'liked' Mara Jade Fanclub on Facebook. Unless it's a fake GL account, I'd say it's a good sign...

    @JediBen's been on this a number of times, but we live in a time when people are inclined to blame the system or those who work for it or in any other way seem in surplus, for everything that happens.


    Thus starts Ch 1 of Edge of Victory I: Conquest by Greg Keyes - a book I generally loved because I thought Anakin was so great in it, as was his interaction with Vua Rapuung. But I'm afraid I think this is one of the worst Luke moments in NJO. There is so much wrong with it. Not just what he argues for later in the text, but this his perfect composure - before the Jedi!!! His own! I can well see Luke starnd with the described authority before non-Jedi he had to win for some cause - but not his own, competent students!!! Particularly not when it a moment later turns out it is a facade he's keeping! Is it just me who thinks this is extremely un-Lukelike?
  14. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    i offered countless viable reasons to explain Luke's so caled inactivity on this thread, but i guess no one buys it.
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86 :
    Things got really bad for Luke, other major characters, and the SW galaxy after the NJO. As you know, I wasn't fond of the NJO either, though I did love TUF.

    By the way, Kataja, did you ever finish TUF?

    I'm with you, MS! I'll definitely take the Jedi over the mercenary types. I'm especially not a Boba Fett fan.

    It did dictate the path he would follow, BUT, I still don't see how killing Nelani would "save" Luke despite what Jacen "saw" in his visions. Jacen seems to have forgotten that "always in motion is the future". Plus, if Jacen would have come to Luke and talked to him about any concerns he might have had, perhaps together they could have solved the problems.

    No, I think that Jacen really, really wanted to know about the Sith powers, knowledge, and skills. He didn't want Lumiya to be killed off, because he then she couldn't have taught him what she knew abotu the Sith. He didn't want that Sith world to be destroyed with all of its Sith secrets lost with it either. That's really why he killed Nelani. If she would have survived, she would have blabbed to Luke that Lumiya was alive and in the area, AND that Jacen was planning to learn from her. Jacen didn't want Luke to know, so Nelani had to go.









    kataja :
    Yes, EXACTLY!!!! And Luke WAS written as sitting idly by when the Jedi kids were in danger, so the author of Rebirth and Conquest DID make a mistake, in my opinion.


    No, it really didn't, because the large amount of time out-of-universe, made it seem like there was a lot of time in-universe from Betrayal to Invincible, when it really was less than a year. In that time, as I said, Jacen went from Jedi hero to Gag leader to CoS to Sith to dead. There was really not much time from when Luke realized that Jacen was a true darksider to when Jacen was killed.


    I noted that George Lucas 'liked' Mara Jade Fanclub on Facebook. Unless it's a fake GL account, I'd say it's a good sign...

    That *does* seem like a good sign. When did he do that, K? Was it recently?


    Sadly, this is true!


    No, you're definitely NOT the only one! I agree with you. Luke trusts his Jedi and respects them. He's a humble guy too. He didn't need to put on an act with them.

    I really didn't like Keyes' Luke characterizations throughout his duology. I felt he truly wrote Luke out of character when he had him sitting passively by when those kids were in trouble, leaving it to a 15 year old to rescue them. I didn't like the way Keyes wrote Luke as sort of darkside when Ben was born. How could it be darkside for Luke to try to destroy an illness that was killing Mara and his unborn son? As I see it, Luke was defending both Mara and Luke from the disease that wanted to destroy them. I hated that Keyes made Luke's efforts seem dark.

    I also didn't like that we didn't get to see Han or Leia's reaction to the birth of their one and only nephew. We didn't get to see them interact with Luke, Mara, or Ben at all. Yes, we "witnessed" Anakin's reaction to his cousin. (It wasn't very flattering, as I recall.) But with an event as important as the birth of Luke's child, we should have gotten a family moment that included Luke, Mara, Leia, and Han, I think.



    JediMatteus :
    Your reasons were fine, JM. It's just that in my opinion, there was simply TOO much inactive time for a character like Luke. If it would have just been a month or two, fine, but for it to be about 18 months was far too much to be believable for this particular character, in my opinion. Meanwhile, the YV were killing millions and progressing ever farther into that galaxy far, far away. I just don't see Luke thinking about philosophy for so long when people are dying and the galaxy is being destroyed.
    kataja likes this.
  16. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    here here apprentice, I have taught u well.=D=:)

    he also took some of Zahn's ideas to the big screen.

    sorry JM, it's no dice for me when you have Luke not doing anything in 6-7 books during a war affecting the galaxy where all the other main characters including Han and Leia were doing something. A period of a few months is understandable 18 months is outrageous

    I would never have known :p

    wait stop....you're sounding too rational and logical....how could the plot flourish through a series not based on any logic ? 8-}:p

    also Jacen knew that visions don't determine the future and can be averted like in DN....it's almost like Jacen forgot everything he learned in DN.[face_thinking]

    wow Keyes made Luke saving his wife and baby boy a darkside act......really ?!??!?!
  17. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Sorry, JM. I know you love these books and I have the highest respect for your opinion - please go on loving them! The arguments just don't work for me, I'm afraid.

    On it, Child, on it. :p I'm 100 pages in, 400 more to go...

    I really should re-read to argue powerfully, but this is how I see it too - yet I remember Jacen's own argumentation was to save his uncle from the future. So while the deeper truth is what you say, Child, MS is right too: Jacen had a metaplan of justification going on in his own head where he acknowledged the facts that were handy for him.

    No idea. I just noted his name there.

    [QUOTEI really didn't like Keyes' Luke characterizations throughout his duology. I felt he truly wrote Luke out of character when he had him sitting passively by when those kids were in trouble, leaving it to a 15 year old to rescue them. I didn't like the way Keyes wrote Luke as sort of darkside when Ben was born. How could it be darkside for Luke to try to destroy an illness that was killing Mara and his unborn son? As I see it, Luke was defending both Mara and Luke from the disease that wanted to destroy them. I hated that Keyes made Luke's efforts seem dark]I really didn't like Keyes' Luke characterizations throughout his duology. I felt he truly wrote Luke out of character when he had him sitting passively by when those kids were in trouble, leaving it to a 15 year old to rescue them. I didn't like the way Keyes wrote Luke as sort of darkside when Ben was born. How could it be darkside for Luke to try to destroy an illness that was killing Mara and his unborn son? As I see it, Luke was defending both Mara and Luke from the disease that wanted to destroy them. I hated that Keyes made Luke's efforts seem dark[/QUOTE]
    Save from that moment (which was pretty much in line with Luceno's Luke from Agents of Chaos and actually Stackpole's too) I though it more clumsy than
    straightout bad. I didn't mind the dark nudge around Bem's birth, though. It seemed like a natural exploration to me concerning jedi and attachment - and Luke didn't turn dark - he just expreienced dark emotions in an extreme situationwhere he was completely helpless.

    Thank you, Master :p



    How could it be darkside for Luke to try to destroy an illness that was killing Mara and his unborn son? - This is exactly the paradox the Jedi are facing - the end doesn't justify the means. Luke was experiencing what was natural - and his actuals were the same - but he was lead by his anger and fear = dark. Then again, I think this was a good example that the line between dark and light isn't as steeple as one could fear - Luke didn't fall in any way, he just tumbled, pulled himself together and found another way. If anything, I think the scene showed how amazing a Jedi he is! Even in a situation like this, with his wife and son in danger and himself helpless - he did not only find a way to help but found one in the light!

    No. Not like that at all. But as the illness grew and Luke knew he had to do something but not what - and attacked the illness in fury. Quite natural - but dark - and actually the scene is compared to wher he leaches out towards Vader in ROTJ when Leia's theratened. But as it doesn't work out, he pulls himself together - and finds a way. Actually I like the scene. Luke's protective and human in it -but he also shows amazing restrain in a truly extreme situation.
  18. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    The problem is that section of the NJO is way beyond your ability to fix, you can get a fair way yeah, but the makers just screwed the pooch too badly.

    I like a lot of your ideas but due to the nature of the NJO at that point, they're vulnerable to counterpoints you just can't do anything about.
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, May 10, 2013
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Ugh, I hate when people start Luke bashing like in the Luke as jedi master thread. Why are people so obsessed with downplaying the OT characters strengths? Vader and Luke being weak doesn't fit the story in any way. If Yoda is stronger than Luke you may as well throw the entire OT in the dumpster because it stops making any sense.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  20. Grand Admiral Crumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2013
    star 1
    Regardless of Luke's Force potential, Yoda still has more than 800 years of experience than he does.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Experience doesn't matter much in force battles. Obi-Wan as mere Padawan defeated Maul, who was more experienced. Luke defeated Vader who is also more experienced. Anakin defeated Dooku who was much more experienced. There seems to be a power cap you reach after a few years of training.

    And besides, Luke wasn't just called weaker than Yoda, that I could live with even if I don't agree with it, he was also bashed.
  22. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    You could argue that Maul got overly confident with Obi-wan, he could have use Force lighting, grip, or toss his saber at Obi-wan instead he just stands over the pit. Dooku couldn't keep up with Anakin's strength which is the same of Vader when he fights his son, they both get bested by young Skywalkers that's true enough. But neither Dooku or Vader used their other Force powers at their opponents, because they weren't trying to kill them they were trying to lure them to the DS and have them join their cause. Experience does matter though, remember Anakin and Obi-wan ? They were both equally match....Anakin's raw power had him match with one of the jedi council's best Masters but power alone doesn't win fights, it's a balance of strength, experience/strategy/technique, and the Force.

    Luke has his father to thank for his uber Force potential which is greater than Yoda's or Palpatine's but he also has Obi-wan to thank for to mettle his abilities
  23. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I'm always right....except when I'm wrong :p Jacen really seem to forget things he learned in DN for his own convience and even when he decides to become a Sith he does it in an hypocritical fashion. He was suppose to sacrifice the one thing he loved the most....by that description that would have been his daughter Allana. Killing Nelani to save Luke made no sense either.

    the problem with that K is Luke already had to deal with the DS before both in OT and DE, so why would he have to "relearn/reeducate" himself during the birth of his son ? It's another consistent problem of EU, Luke has been written to be easily swayed by the dark side or more accurately the plots have him going through the same arc he had in ESB and RotJ with avoiding temptation of the DS. The thing is though Luke never fell to the dark side yet other writers like to put their spin that Luke has. For a man who would sacrifice himself instead of being used as a weapon for evil twice, you think the writers would challenge Luke in other ways. Pregancy, childbirth, and a war going on outside seem sufficient enough if handle approirately.

    Now if they have worried, anger, concern, etc....normal human emotions during childbirth that's fine. I just don't like it that every story arc has to be a dark side trial for Luke.

    If it's a fleeting moment, where he's just too worried bout his wife and child but pulls himself together in the light then I would say it's ok. He's just worried. but making it sound like Luke is striking out in anger seems too manipulative of Keyes.
  24. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    yeah i mean i was not thrilled with it either. i guess i was just fine with the youngsters taking the starring roles for awhile
  25. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I hear yeah, and it's good for the kids to take the spotlight but not at the expense of diminishing the older characters. The balanced approach in Onslaught and TUF should have been the standard throughout the series. In NJO's case it seem to hit Luke more so than every other main character. Han went into depression for a few books but pull himself together(although I felt it was strange that he would not talk to Anakin) 3 books later. Leia was active either in the senate or in the war zone. Lando and Wedge were doing their part. Luke was the only one who seem to be pushed to the background yet without any relevant reason or any certain activity to help out in the war. Another issue is that NJO seem to have at least a book geared towards one character, Han had Agents of Chaos, Leia had a book but I dont remembered Jaina had Dark Journey, and Jacen had Traitor. Luke nor Mara had one book dedicated to them.