Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

So far there simply isn't a correlation between age and dueling victories as long as the opponents have sufficient training. Therefore you can't claim there is one.

Generally participants in lightsaber duels never act crafty, including Yoda. Instead of attempting to surprise attack Palpatine he challenges him head on.

You know what I would do? Wear heavy armor and use grenades.

Anyways, Luke was fully trained in ROTJ as made obvious in dialogue. Yoda straight told him he knew enough and the only thing he was missing was confronting his father. If Luke has indeed his fathers potential he should be more powerful than Yoda.

 

MasterSkywalker86 In terms of Luke's ongoing problems with the Dark Side, I tend to rationalize it away with his realization at the end of Truce at Bakura, which I find to be one of his best moments. He's beaten, bloodied, and desperate. He needs power, and as always, the Dark Side is right there beckoning him down the easy road. Luke is confused, because just a few days ago he'd renounced the Dark Side on the 2nd Death Star, so he doesn't understand why he's feeling it's call again. It concludes with him once again renouncing it, and coming to the realization that the darkness isn't something you deny once and are then free of forever. It has to be denied, fought, and driven back every day of one's life, with every action the Jedi take against it. And he accepts that as the path of the Jedi and comes out stronger for said realization.

Only problem from there is that some others are better than others at portraying this kind of thing.

 

Was Anakin more powerful than Yoda in RotS ? He was the same age as Luke and was fully trained yet he could not beat Obi-wan he even though Anakin has the greater potential. Potential means nothing unless you master it. Luke had the basics down but as we see his saber style is at it's simplistic compare to the jedi of the PT. Also you have both Yoda and Obi-wan in ESB saying his training was incomplete before he left too. But by RotJ he benefited from learning on his own that there wasn't much he could learn from his mentors.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Luke has the potential to be more powerful than Yoda. The thing is using the Force takes practice like any great skill. Luke after one week of training lifts an X-wing over a few feet but fails to successively pull it out of the lake cause he doesn't believe... But if he did he could have done it. I believe had Luke stayed on Dagobah for a complete training, he would have been prepared for both Vader and Palpatine. But as of RotJ he could overpower the 2nd strongest sith his father and in the RotJ novelization/screenplay Luke could counter a bit of Palpatine's force lighting by instinct

 

DarthJenari. That's true, although it seems like Luke is the only who has to deal with the constant trial while other jedi seem beyond it. Leia always gets a free pass. Also it has been done to death that they might as well have Luke tempted by the DS by just using the bathroom or brushing his teeth. I can understand him being tempted once in a while when he's younger but I expect him to beyond it at 40 and 60

 

Jeps.

Well, on th eother hand, PT lovers often feel OT lovers hate the characters they love... It's a sad situation... And sad if that thread has deranged - I liked that Lukie Lukishness in the start!

Tell about it! I'm sick and tired of Luke being tempted. But I still maintain that I think it was an ok scene. I saw it more like a natural burst of anger than a temptation of the DS. And finally wesaw a Luke in NJO who was naturl and emotional - not that serene duracrete figure of some other books!

Just hang on to your love for NJO, JM! Don't mind us who're bothered!

I had forgotten that! And I'm so glad that Tyers, who I love so much, has such a wise thing in her book. This is exactly how I see it too - and exactly why the DS stuff is something we readers can take with us to everyday life. Temptations of challenges just never go away!

That said - I can still grow tired when the DS temptations get too epical again and again.

 

I think Anakin lacked the discipline to really fulfill his potential in RotS. Just look at him. He is full of negative emotions and using the lightside requires you to be "calm" like Yoda told us in TESB. Anakin was neither really light nor dark, he could neither use the full power of the light nor the full power of the dark (also he has no darkside training). His mind was simply lacking. This is how I explain the difference.

Later as Vader however, he was very disciplined and very entrenched in the dark side.

Luke during RotJ was definitely ready as
a) Yoda said so
b) He displayed good force use and self control (bar his anger during the final fight)

One shouldn't mistake stylistic differences of saber battling between OT and EU or PT for a lack of power of the OT characters. OT Vader, Palpatine and Luke were really cream of the crop as that is how it was presented to us and that is the only way the story logic makes sense. Vader was capable of pulling of techniques nobody could do in the PT and he was beaten by Luke. That should tell right there how powerful Luke was.

Yes, in TESB he couldn't lift the X-wing because his belief wasn't strong enough, he didn't yet have the discipline and self control of a true Jedi. He only achieved that during ROTJ.

In the OT it was told to us that a little training is sufficient to master the force. Then the PT rolls around and suddenly it takes decades. This retroactive continuity is a problem Lucas caused. The OT came first so it and not the PT should be the guideline how things are.

Force training is also overrated because during the PT Sidious certainly didn't have many opportunities to hone his skills. But he could still kick ass in RotS.

 

Lucas himself pointed out that the PT Jedi were more advanced in terms of dueling not only because in real life it was decades later and more could be shown, but in terms of the story they had been training longer and were in their "full flower", believe that's the term he used. It's all in the featurette on the birth of the lightsaber if I remember correctly.

Agreed. Really Post-Hand of Thrawn Duology i'd say it's a little ridiculous for him to have any problems of that nature.

 

Lucas said a lot of things. Doesn't mean it makes any sense.

If Vader were so weak, he would've been killed in the two decades between trilogies. But he wasn't. Also Obi-Wan and Ben wouldn't need Luke to end the job if that were the case, they could just team up one year or so after order 66, take Vader out and then both go after Palps.

I am glad Lucas is just creative consultant now. The new powers that be will hopefully be wise enough not to invent in universe explanations for artistic differences.

 

Darth_Pevra

I'm not confusing saber styles for expertise. Luke's style is much his father's Djem So, but you can see the stark differences between Anakin in RotS and Luke in RotJ. Luke's is more simplistic due to relatively being new to saber combat. that said I'm not saying Luke wasn't sufficient at the saber rather his style is basic due to only being 6 months on the job. Obviously the better you get the more tricks you know.

As for the OT, it didn't tell us you could forgo training. It tells us Luke is a special case, his connection to the force is unparalleled and he survived a battle with the 2nd most powerful sith despite the odds. Luke could progress so fast due to his heritage, that wouldn't be the same of every regular joe jedi

Sidious was fully trained before PT.

DarthJenari, yeh it seems like they always have Luke either be handicapped or go through the same trials...which is frustrating

 

Obi-wan beat Vader by one misstep on Anakin's part otherwise they were equally match. Vader though grew in power despite being in an iron lung. Dewback, another Vader fan can fill you on more of Vader's accomplishments but basically the general rule of thumb is no one should be able to beat Vader save his son

 

The PT Jedi being better at saber combat makes perfect sense.

 

kataja, sorry apprentice I'll answere your post later. I'm texting from the cell phone now and it's difficult.

Ok forgot that last statement yes it seems like Luke being handicapped or tempted by the DS has been a consistent issue for Luke. Writers forget that Luke has progressed beyond that...there are always new ways to challenge a seasoned jedi without falling back on the basics

 

Why then did they wait so long to train Luke? If it takes so much time to learn you'd think Obi-Wan started training him sooner.
And why then would they send him after Palpatine and Vader?

Explaining away artistic differences causes nothing but logical problems imo. I simply accept that Luke is on par with PT saberfighters even if it looks differently.



In the ST we will again get a different fighting style. I wonder what unneeded comparisons will then arise.

 

I believe Obi-wan and Yoda were waiting for a sign of the Force to determine when would be the right time. Like how Sidious remade the sith so do the jedi have to adapt. Yoda's order grew complacent, they refuse to rely on their greatest strength of love, and got involved in too much politics. Yoda mentions this at the end of RotS, so Luke being the first of the new would undergo a more unorthodox training. The jedi relied solely on the Force, Luke relied on his wits, piloting skills, and mechanical skills for 10 years without knowledge of the Force. There is also the point that once Luke started his training that there would be no way to mask his prescence, you can't cover a beacon that bright.


Agree to disagree on the saber combat then DP but it seems to be consistent to me

 

I don't find the explanation of the force telling them when to start training Luke satisfying at all, sorry.

In reality the idea that Vader and Luke were weak only resulted because
a) GL has an agenda to make the PT appear more important than the OT. Downplaying the OT protagonists importance is part of that
b) the EU also includes a lot of over the top force use and saber dueling, especially the comics

As for the bright beacon neither Palpatine nor Vader were able to detect Luke and Yoda on Dagobah. While yes, it is possible to detect a Jedi from tenthousand kilometers distance (Vader has done so in RotJ), it is still very difficult. So therefore a Sith would need to be in the same system to find a Jedi. Luke and Obi-Wan could've just left Tatooine and gone to whatever backwater world without civilization for training.

 

Luke's training not beginning till later could've been due to a number of things: Not being hidden under a Dark Side cloak (Which is why he and Yoda weren't detected on Dagobah), his aunt and uncle not allowing it, wanting Luke to grow up a bit first, etc.

What they did know was that he was the son of the Chosen One and therefore had massive potential similar to his father, who right away in his training immediately surpassed every other student in lightsaber training and Force use. After the events on Hoth they planned to have Luke spend about 1 year of intensive study with Yoda, the greatest Jedi the Old Order had ever produced, and then have him go after Vader and Sidious. The fact that didn't happen is Luke's fault. He chose to leave, and threw off the plan, decreasing his training by a fair amount.

It's due to personal opinion however, as i've said I think it makes perfect sense for PT Jedi to have been more skilled with the blade.

 

Sidious: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
Vader: I have felt it.
Sidious: we have a new enemy, the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star.

This is after one week of training with Yoda yet Palpatine can sense his presence and it's growing. I think after his training is complete there would be no dark side aura sufficient to mask his presence
Also one year is still relatively short to train a jedi but oh boy Luke would have been unstoppable


Luke nor Vader are weaker than the PT jedi, on the contrary they're the most powerful jedi who ever lived. Vader's saber expertise is still masterful you can see that in the OT but he won't add spins or flashiness cause he had to adapt to a suit. He wont be acrobatic but he doesnt need it. Luke's saber skill might be basic since he's learning but it was enough to defeat his father the slayer of many PT jedi. And only after RotJ became a full jedi knight imagine what he could do when he's more seasoned

 

No, Luke was fully trained in RotJ. Yoda said he only missed confronting his father.

Later because of the EU and PT this was retconned to him being not fully trained as to explain why he gets much more powerful later. But that wouldn't have been necessary if the authors refrained from power creeping so much (looking at you, KJA!).

The endless retconning of the movies themselves is why so many fans hate the EU. It stomps on what we love.

As for the Palpatine line: He could feel Lukes existence but he sure as hell couldn't pinpoint his location. Yoda and Obi-Wan could also hide themselves for a long time.

Vader is probably not the best saber duelist there is. But he doesn't need to. He has enough strengths as is.

No matter how you rationalize it, it still remains a retcon of the OT. I loathe that kind of thing.

I could make counterpoints to everything but I am just strictly of the opinion that these explanations shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

 

No matter how you rationalize it, it still remains a retcon of the OT. I loathe that kind of thing.

I could make counterpoints to everything but I am just strictly of the opinion that these explanations shouldn't be necessary in the first place.[/quote]

What's a retcon? The Dark Side cave thing?

Again it's all a matter of opinion.

 

That it certainly is.

Next few years will be very exciting. Even if the EU isn't trashed, we might get a Darth Vader who does PT style fighting very, very soon, either in Spinoffs or the new animation project. Much of what is now believed is built on sand.

 

The moment we try to explain why the OT looks like it does in universe, particularly with the knowledge we now have fromt he PT - that moment we're in deep trouble. Too much RL reasons needs to be ignored and turned into GFFA reasons - with poor results.

That however, shouldn't prevent us from accepting the i universe reasons we think make sense. To me, it makes sense that Yoda and Ben (and Ferus Olin who Alex Wheeler sets as Leia's guardian) didn't train Luke (or Leia) because they were afraid they'd reveal their existence - and that they were waiting for a sign from the Force before starting. Maybe Yoda also was afraid for the very thing to train Anakin's children - he is still reluctant to train Luke in ESB after all.

Actually, he said "No more training do you need." That's not exactly the same thing. I see it like Yoda was confident Luke would be able himself to figure out how to continue his learning (and indeed isn't life one long journey of learning for us all - how much more so then for a Jedi?). Also, Yoda in ROTJ could seem confident Luke could handle Vader.This in comparison to ESB - and Luke didn't get any training in between! Therefor I see it as a combination: the steps Luke himself has been able to make between ESB and ROTJ put together with the training Yoda managed to give in ESB convinces Y that Luke can manage on his own from there on.

It's a strking contradiction, after all. In ESB "Not ready you are yet" and in ROTJ "No more training do you need". All I can see to explain it, is Luke's display to grow on his own.

 

Yes, "no more training do you need" when he sends him off to face frigging Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine! I hope we can all agree that Yoda wouldn't send some half trained kid who still "needs to figure out how to continue his training". Doing that would be insane and reprehensible at the same time.

Difference between TESB and ROTJ is not in the skills Luke had, those he already learned on Dagobah, but in his mind. He was defeated and rose from it wiser and more mature and more in-tuned with the force. That maturity was needed to
defeat Vader and Palpatine.
This explanation fits perfectly as like Yoda makes a point that the own spirit is what is important and so on. Mere skills are easily learned, but having the right mindset is the challenge.

 

Insane? In Star Wars??? Come now

I don't even know if we disagree here? I think Luke knew "enough". He was trained. But that doesn't mean there wouldn't be more to know and that he wouldn't continue to grow in widom and skills over a lifetime. I was a smart and capable young lady when I was 23. Much of what I could do then, I woudn't be able to do anymore. But I'm oh, so much more skilled and wise today

 

Really it doesn't make sense regardless, save for the fact Luke had ruined the original plan and there was no other option at that point lol Luke still wasn't equal to Sidious then but was sent off to face him anyway.

 

Who says he wasn't ready for Palpatine? He threw his weapon away to inspire Vader and make a point. Maybe he just felt in his heart that continuing to fight was wrong. Doesn't mean Palpatine is stronger. Note that the idea of Palpatine being the strongest dude ever was also invented after the PT and EU made it seem so.

Regarding conventional wisdom there was surely room for improvement, of course. Some people get wiser with age and experience.

But force powers ... no. When Yoda sent him Luke must already have reached his limit because you don't send someone into this battle who has not maximized his/her own abilities. Maybe there are some exotic powers which wouldn't be relevant, but he definitely learned all battle powers he could learn.