Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    ah gotcha DJ, just want to mention the specifics;)

    actually ESB has it's first appearance if you notice when he Force jumps out of the Carbonite chamber,he does so at an incredible rate of speed that his Father doesn't even register it :D He combines two Force powers together....that's just epic :)

    I find cool that he was already discovering telekinesis on his own before Yoda's teachings. I mean Force pulling his saber during the wampa cave demonstrates he has done it on a few occasions before somewhere between ANH-ESB. I like to think of grip as a power that comes natural to Skywalkers. Like telekinesis in their blood. Also I love the fact that Luke becomes an expert on mind trick in RotJ
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  2. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    That's right!! I'd forgotten about him jumping out of the carbon freezing chamber. I remember now that the first few times I watched the film I didn't even notice him jumping out, a blink and I missed it kind of think.

    Really most of the powers Luke's learned later in life as well he did with either very little instruction or on his own.
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  3. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    That's Skywalkers learning ability is awesome to watch
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  4. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Darth Jensari

    I agree! If the authors MUST write about a Jedi fighting dark side temptations, they should pick on another character at this point. Luke has already proven himself and defeated the dark over and over again. And personally, I'd prefer to read stories about Jedi helping people and solving problems and going on adventures than read more stories about any Jedi nearly giving in to darkside temptations. I want to see Luke's Jedi make a positive impact on the galaxy and be respected and appreciated by the people of the galaxy instead of hated and mistrusted by them.

    Luke and his Jedi should be portrayed as the solutions to the problems in the galaxy, not as the cause of problems in the galaxy.







    Masterskywalker 86

    I'd say without falling back on the already overdone teetering on the edge of darkness stories for Luke.








    Darth_Pevra :
    Yes, Luke *is* special. I don't believe that most Jedi could progress so quickly and so well. Luke is a a quick study; an instinctive learner; and resourceful. One thing that I agreed with that Denning once said out of universe is that no one even knows everything that Luke is capable of, and that Luke can figure out and create a Lightside skill to counter any darkside skill that was thrown at him.


    At least according to the novelization of RotS, they waited because Yoda felt that there were some things that the Jedi of the Old Order had been doing that he felt needed to be changed. He said that they had become too rigid, and that the galaxy had changed but the Jedi had not grown and changed with it. When Obi-wan suggested that Luke and Leia should be separated and trained by him and Yoda right away, Yoda disagreed, saying, "Jed training the sole source of self-discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the Living Force will bring them".

    So, Yoda seemed to want Luke and Leia to be brought up in rather normal families, and know a fairly normal way of life before they began Jedi training.









    MasterSkywalker86:
    I think that's exactly right, MS.

    I think that made him a more well-rounded person and he wasn't overly-reliant on the Force. He had other talents that he was able to develop before he added the Force to his skills. I think being raise by non-Force sensitive guardians also helped Luke to appreciate and better understand normal people. I think it helped make him less arrogant than some of the PT Jedi had been. Luke doesn't consider himself better than those who don't have the Force.

    That's a great point! The Emperor certainly seemed to feel the "disturbance in the Force" right after Luke started Jedi training.







    Darth_Pevra :
    Hopefully, this will be changing now that the ST will be filmed. Maybe the pendulum will swing back to the OT and the OT characters being more important again.


    Yes, I agree with that.


    Isn't it supposed to be that the reason that Palpatine and Vader couldn't detect Luke and Yoda on Dagobah was because there was a darkside nexus or something there which cancelled out the Lightside Force use?






    DarthJenari :

    Yes, I thought I had remembered something like that.


    Right!







    MasterSkywalker86:
    I think you're right about that.







    katajaJedi :
    I don't really think that Yoda was reluctant to train Luke. On the contrary, I think he had waited specifically to train Luke. Remember that in one of Zahn's books (and I forget which one at the moment, ) Cardas' said something about needing to prepare for the most important student in 200 years or something like that. That student was Luke, and I'd even like to say that Luke was THE most important student in Yoda's whole life!

    I believe that Yoda's seeming reluctance was just a sham. I think he wanted to test Luke to see how sincere his resolve was; to see if he really wanted to be a Jedi.


    Yes, I think all of us should be lifelong learners, especially Jedi. I think Luke would agree. After all, even as a Jedi Grandmaster he went to visit other Force sects and learned new skills. I agree that Yoda was probably confident that Luke could continue to progress and learn on his own at the time of RotJ.





    More another time....
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  5. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    MS-86: Wasn't Luke 'coached' by 'the voice of Ben' as to how to Force Pull his saber in the Wampa cave?

    Child: In VotF, IIRC.
  6. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah must Jedi did not have much in the ways of skills before joining the Order which is understandable considering recruitment and such young age. Plus everyone probably thought in essentially the same style. Still there are advantage and disadvantages to all methods of recruitment, training, and organizational management. Be interesting to see how they handle this in EP VII, definitely want to see what lessons Luke learned from failures in the past and to see how he builds his order to counter such failings and stand the test of time.
  7. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @Tim Battershell, actually no Tim you're possibly thinking of Ben giving guidance in the trench run in ANH or after he slice the Wampa where he tells him to go to Dagobah. But calling his weapon was all on his own :)
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 17, 2013
  8. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Novelisation, pp 18 & 19:)
  9. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @Tim Battershell, point but I think the film overrules the book in this scenario. I think GL deliberately excluded Ben's help as it would look like Luke need constant help n hadn't made progress, not to mention it would lessen the surprise to the audience.also if Luke was being coached in the film by Ben then why is he shocked to see Ben half an hour later :p
  10. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I hope (and think) they won't contradict the EU much - at least for a start. I hope The ST will sort of start where the EU's stopped at the mo - and use teh characters there are - but not really mention what's happened in between. That way, if the ST's the success we all hope it will be, people will have easier accepting what changes may occur when they'll eventually start to film what's happened between the OT and the ST (and they will - if the ST's a success). but if the ST fails, it would be sad to see the EU thrown out with the garbage. Not that i like all of it - but there is something beautiful to continuity, I think...

    On the other hand, if the ST's a success, they'll do films of what happened in between - and my hope is that they'd follow the EU loosely - but smooth out the obvious stupidities. The problem with the EU isn't what's happened - but how it was done! eah, Mara's death will still suck - but if we're shown her and Luke as the awesome couple we fans know thery were, in the period in between - and if her death is made to make sense - then it would be acceptable, I think. Heartbreak is part of great storytelling. It just should be epic enough.

    Funny - I missed it too. Didn't realize before I had the DVD's :p

    That could be possible too. In a way, I could actually see both scenarios at the same time. Yoda'd be preparing for this like for nothing else ever - thus he'd also fear what would happen if he'd fail. He'd wait for the right moment to appear - Anakin's son's not to be trained lightly.
    Last edited by kataja, May 17, 2013
  11. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    exactamundo :D , Luke can pick up skills rapidly fast once taught or own his own. Force speed(ESB), Force pull(Wampa Cave),visions, and Force grip(RotJ) were skills that he pick up on his own.

    Luke's time as a normal kid did well to make him humble and well mannered. The jedi in prequel times seem to be very haughty due to their power, if you remember as a padawan Obi-wan seem to look down on Jar-Jar and Anakin, calling them pathetic lifeforms. I see that arrogance as something representative of the attitude of the Jedi Order. Another instance is the jedi librarian believing it's impossible for the Jedi Archives to be incomplete.....er I thought they would be less prideful and more open-minded. I think Yoda started to understand this attitude was a failure of the Jedi Order.

    yes and that dark side nexus/tree could only cover Luke's presence for so long. If Palpatine could sense a "great disturbance" in the Force during Luke's first week of training, I imagine Luke's presence would be like a sun once he completed his training.

    yes it seem like a lesson that Yoda was instilling on Luke, he also wanted to be careful and not make another Vader too. You're right its VotF, I love that line

    thats why I'm master of Luke feats on this board ;)
  12. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Darth_Pevra:
    I agree that Luke's mindset, his new maturity and the fact that he was more in tune with the Force, made the biggest difference in Luke between TESB and RotJ. He would still learn and develop more skills later, but there was a definite change in Luke's demeanor and mindset when we saw him in RotJ.

    That's the way I saw it, yes. Luke would rather die than join the dark side and become an agent of evil. That didn't mean that Luke wanted to die. If Luke could convince Anakin/Vader to turn on Palpatine and save Luke's life AND Anakin's soul, so much the better.








    kataja:
    I definitely agree with this.


    I agree with this too. Luke has more raw power than Sidious, but he lacks the experience and control and still needs to learn and develop more Force skills. Luke will likely continue to learn new Force skills his whole life, just as all of us will hopefully continue to grow and learn new things throughout our lifetimes.







    DarthJenari:
    I agree with this too.









    MasterSkywalker86 :
    Yes, that's the way I see it too.








    Jedi Ben :
    Nicely said, JB!!! And, yes, I thought Luke wielding the wall of Light in DE was really awesome! Not only was it a really cool and surprising skill, but as you said, it was amazing that Luke was so successful the first time he used it. I wonder how he even knew to do this? Luke just seems to be so instinctive about Force skills... and a good thing too, as after Yoda died, he didn't have other Jedi to rely on to teach him other skills not covered in Yoda's crash course!



    Which in itself was another great feat!


    Exactly! Luke was just a novice Jedi at the end of RotJ. There was (and still is for him, even as a Jedi Grandmaster!) plenty more to learn about the Force.



    No, I don't either. And, as Darth Jenari said, the fact that Luke was able to partially deflect Sidious' lightning for a very short time when he had no foreknowledge of the technique and had never had any preparation for it, *is* a testament to Luke's connection to the Force and his intuitiveness about it.








    DarthJenari:
    You're probably right!







    Jedi Ben:
    Yes, because then Luke could have prepared for it.


    That's a great point, JB!


    More another time...
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  13. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I'm rereading Dark Empire. Although the dialogue is very bad in places, I'm finding the tale itself to be much more enjoyable on a reread. Some Luke related things I liked:

    -This quote: "Luke alone knows the level of power and knowledge he has achieved in the years since Obi-Wan Kenobi, Master Yoda, and his father Anakin Skywalker passed on... knowledge that has given fresh meaning to the words of the great Jedi Knights who went before..."

    -I find it interesting that Tom Veitch envisioned such a ridiculously powerful Luke Skywalker, years before the prequels, and with very little but the Original Trilogy to compare it to. This is before the chosen one stuff, even. I wonder, did he envision all Jedi having this level of power, or just Luke and the Emperor?

    -Not Luke related, but I love the description of Palpatine's hatred for Luke being enough to rend the fabric of space itself.

    -Another nice one within the first issue. "Across the vast deeps of space, two masters of power touch minds... one the very essence of Jedi... the other dark beyond darkness". God how I want Stover to novelize this. There's so much he could do with this material.

    - Another rather subtle one I liked about Palpatine; in reference to his Force storms, Mon Mothma refers to the user as "someone... or something". I've always seen Palpatine as more a force of nature than a person.

    - The first conversation between Luke and Palpatine is interesting. It clearly states that none of Palpatine's arguments have reached him, that from the very beginning Luke is in it to destroy Palpatine, and to defeat the dark side from within. His folly, as I see it, is believing that he can use the dark side to serve his own purposes. That kind of manipulative thinking is only a first step. Even so, this contest of wills between Palpatine and Luke is yet another reason why I want Dark Empire novelized; if you get an author that's skilled with intrigue, such as Luceno or Stover, it could be almost like watching a game of chess unfold between them, as Palpatine attempts to corrupt Luke at every turn, even as Luke sabotages his every move. This is simply too big a story to adequately fit into six issues. What could make it even more interesting is that both sides would be shown as succeeding; Luke obviously learns willingly from Palpatine (see his use of the Force doppelganger), so he doesn't make a clear distinction on whether it's okay or not to use the things that Palpatine taught him.

    - The apparition of Luke's conversation with Leia has the potential to be really interesting... unfortunately the dialogue is really hammy and doesn't make a lot of sense.

    And I'll read the other half later.
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  14. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @instantdeath, I think it's pretty clear in the OT that Luke, his father, and Anakin were the top dogs when it came to the Force. Even without the Chosen One prophecy it's clear that Anakin's line is strong and could be more powerful than the big bad himself. The Force power having no limits probably sprung from the line "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." Seeing Palps wield the Force storm shows how big of a threat Sidious is and why the Skywalkers were needed

    Also Yoda confirmed Anakin's power, "Powerful jedi was he hmmmmm powerful."

    Anywho I dunno if you're listening to the audio dramatization but Luke lowers the Star Destroyer the Liberator with the Force that isnt shown on panrl. Lando makes mention of it but we don't see it onscreen which is a crime. I would hope if DE ever became a book they would include it

    I never understood why doppelgänger is considered dark, it's a force illusion after all
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 18, 2013
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    [/QUOTE]

    I believe it has been retconned into NOT being dark side. I think it was in that Jedi book that comes in a vault ( I forget the name of it) that Jedi Masters either used it or commented about using it.

    You're right: It doesn't make any sense that it would be darkside. The person using it isn't harming anyone. It seems like it's similar to a Fallanassi illusion, and those aren't dark side. Doppelganger just seems like a really cool and useful Force trick. And Luke was only using it to keep Han and Leia safe. He knew they wouldn't leave Byss without him, and he wanted them to be out of danger, so he pretended to be with them.
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  16. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    You're right I forgot bout th retcon, it is an illusion when it comes down to it
  17. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86 :
    Yes, Luke *does* have a talent for countering new dark side skills that are thrown at him with a Lightside equivalent. Luke seems to be very resourceful at creating ways to deal with previously unseen darkside tricks that the villains throw at him. He may be unable to counter the trick the first time, but don't try the same thing with him twice, because he usually seems to be able to figure out how to counter it for the next time.

    But I agree that we don't get to see Luke's "exotic" skills or powers often enough.








    Darth_Pevra :
    I think it's better to say that Luke would rather die than join the dark side. I think if Luke would have thought that he could continue to fight without falling to the dark side, that he would have done so.







    Jedi Ben:
    And becoming a Sith Lord is definitely one of them!


    Which is pretty much what happened in DE too. That too was a very high risk gamble, but there weren't many options at that point. Palpatine was terrorizing the galaxy again and many people were dying.








    DarthJenari :
    Nicely said, DJ!!!! I like this very much! Very true! During this confrontation, Luke *did* prove that he was worthy to be a Jedi; and he successfully redeemed his father and was the catalyst that led to the fall of the Emperor and his Empire at the same time.









    Jedi Ben:
    I agree!


    More another time!
  18. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Darth Pevra :
    This did seem to be Luke's idea, yes. Neither Yoda nor Ben gave any hints that Luke should try to redeem Vader/Anakin. In fact, Obi-wan seemed to try to discourage Luke from trying to turn him back to the Lightside. He pretty much told Luke that it couldn't be done, when he said that Vader was evil, "more machine than man".







    Tim Battershell:
    Yes, that, AND finding out that the father that you thought was a dead heroic Jedi is very much alive and is really the second biggest villain in the galaxy. Not to mention that the guy who chopped off your hand is your very own father.







    Darth_Pevra
    That's true. Luke didn't have the right mindset or control or maturity.








    Nobody145 ;
    Yes, I too thought that sending Luke to face Vader alone was a "desperation gamble". Luke was the only Jedi, (at least that's what we thought at the time and may find to be true again if the EU is over-written in the ST) so he was the only one who could confront the Sith Lord. The galaxy was in a dire situation and Palpatine and Vader needed to be stopped. They couldn't wait until Luke was and experienced Jedi or until Luke had reestablished the Jedi Order so lots of Jedi could face the two Sith together. There's no doubt that much risk was involved in sending Luke into the Lions' den! It was sort of like David facing TWO goliaths!

    Fortunately, Luke found a way to be successful, even though it probably wasn't the way that Yoda and Obi-wan had expected him to attempt to do it. Luke did it by redeeming his father instead of killing him.







    kataja :
    I agree. I don't think Luke had any idea that one could make lightning with the Force and use it as a weapon. I think that was probably a very bad surprise!

    I really like this idea that perhaps Yoda had foreseen that things *would* work out and Luke would not only survive, but be more successful than Yoda could even have wished for!

    I agree! And I think Luke succeeded beyond Obi-wan and Yoda's wildest dreams really! Not only did he help to bring down and Emperor and his Empire, but Luke also managed to redeem Anakin/Vader as well. Plus, Luke survived to restore the Jedi Order in the future.

    Yes! I think that all of us here agree that Luke *is* awesome and has the potential to be the most powerful, amazing, and resourceful Jedi ever. :) He has probably saved more people than any other Jedi in galactic history, when you consider all of the wars and villains and evil that Luke has defeated, from Vader to Lumiya, to Palpatine to the Ssi-ruvi, to the droch plague, to the Lost Sith to Abeloth, and all of the threats in between.








    Darth_Pevra:
    It showed that Luke was willing to die rather than join the dark side and become another agent of evil.

    Yes, it doesn't seem as though Force ghosts know everything just because they've become One with the Force.
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  19. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Very good and important points, MS! I hope this will eb a key to the ST!!!

    [face_peace] That, you are!!!

    Well said

    But Veitch based much if his material on Lucas' , didn't he? But your pointing this out, makes me even more excited about the ST!

    Agreed completely!!! It woudl be an awesome rounding up of Mindor!!!! =P~

    We need DE as novel - and COPL as comic! ;)

    Good point too. Argh, I realize I miss a lot of the subtleties of DE's text, becase I don't like the woody faces or stances of the drawn characters. It's such a pity!
    Then, I enjoyed the radio drama immensly!!!

    Thing is, that the latter is almost a demand from the former, isn't it? Now, after ROTS, that we know that Yoda knew about Sith lightening... o_O Pevra is right, that this could make Yoda look very bad. But with a little bit of good will, maybe we can correct that? ;)

    I was, thinking the other day, though, about the question whether Yoda wanted to train Luke or not. I'm very inclined towards Yoda being very split about this. I think he was preparing to train - Luke or Leia - when the time was right, whoever of them would arrive. I really think he waited for a sign from the Force, so to say, because while he knew Anakin's children were the key to overhtrowing Vader and Palpatine, he also feared Anakin's legacy. And I started to think, whether one couldn't see the omitting to tell the siblings about each other, as a sign of the same? Yoda feared the attachment would lead to their doom, and didn't want to reaveal it before they were 'ready for the burden'. Or responsability, more correctly. It would follow the same logic as of wich he allowed Luke confront Vader without knowing Vader was his father. A bit like close your eyes and hope it works out - then again, better Luke kills his father and realizes who he was afterwards - or Luke sleeps with his sister and is hit by truth afterwards, than the entire galaxy is hit by the consequences of another Skywalker not able to stand the distance. Not the nicest of behaviours - then again, the stakes were immensly high! And Obi-Wan would follow Yoda's desicions. Though in a way, I'd think it was cool if Yoda was reluctant to train Luke - and Obi-Wan tricked him into it by following his own intuition and start Luke's training himself in ANH :p And after that, the dice kept rolling...
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  20. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    You see I don't see how they expected Luke to win if a plan does not involve trying to turn Vader against the Emperor. Unless the plan is to just blow up the second death star which is a perfectly viable tactic honestly much better odds then sending Luke into fight both Palps and Vader
  21. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Should we assume there was a 'plan' at all? I mean, could there be? Ben and Yoda were out of the fighting, instead studying the Force for 19 years. I don't think they had a 'plan' in any traditional way. I think they followed their intuition - and prepared for what they beleived was their part: the role of the teacher. Their time of being 'generals' was over. They didn't 'send' Luke to confront either Vader or Palpatine - but they knew that the path he had taken would eventually lead him to do this. All they could do was try to prepare him as well they could - and avoid the most threatening catastrophies. In that perspective, even Luke's death had been small fris compared to his possible fall to the Dark Side.
  22. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    I suppose you are right.
  23. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I wish in RotJ we could have seen Luke block the sith lighting for a little bit, to demonstrate his adaptability...still in DE we get to see him used wall of light for the first time to great effect. Also he could reach to the heart of the Force which demonstrates a very close connection to the Force at different times.

    I know, most writers tend to hold Luke back then demonstrate his abilities.

    While Luke had the raw Force power to destroy both the Emperor and Vader, he conquer the two another way, with love. The love of his father, which cause him to save the soul of Anakin Skywalker and in turn saved the galaxy. A big reminder that love is a big trait of the LS. The thing about the films is they tend to play with destiny and choosing you're own path. Anakin would have defeated Sidious on his own had he stay a jedi but he fell to the DS and that alter events. Luke would have defeated Vader and Sidious if he completed his training but he chose to saved his friends. Even so Luke defeated the sith in a different way

    they have to show that love is a core principle of the LS, instead of distancing oneself from it. Also that attachments don't cause one to the DS but obsessions will. Balance is key.

    here here :)


    yes and GL said the comic was the closest to ST at the time :D I hope we get to see Luke levitate a star destroyer

    novel of DE yes....comic of COPL ?!??!? I would probably used it as toilet paper. :p

    the audio drama really highlighted alot of things not shown in the comic or not as focused.

    I think Yoda would have shown Luke how to counter it if Luke had stayed to complete his training but by the time of RotJ he was already on his death bed. He also figure that Luke would have his saber which is capable of deflecting lighting as well.Remember they trained him to fight the sith not redeem them.

    think of it this way, even when Yoda seem hesitant to train Luke it seem to be more of a lesson to instill on the young Skywalker than Yoda not wanting to train him. He saw that Luke was rash, headstrong, and impatient like his father but he had to show Luke these traits to himself. Notice how Luke mentions he learns so much and Yoda is easily convinced. I'll say this though, Yoda put a high emphasis on Luke avoiding the DS in his training. Yoda knew how bad it would be to have another Skywalker fall to the DS.

    Had Luke completed the training he would have been able to defeat both, but as it was they both Yoda and Obiwan percieve that it was Luke's destiny to face Vader and Sidious nonetheless.[/quote]
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 19, 2013
  24. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    U know I never been a fan of the storytelling trope of young genius upstart with a few months of training takes down masters with way more experience because he is simply the most powerful being ever. Now I am down with it he uses a plan and turns their arrogance against them but just winning because he has more power always felt like bs to me. I absolutely hate it.
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  25. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Well Luke didn't win the battle against the sith with his power but due to redeeming his father, but had he completed his training proper he would have been able due to his force strength. In fact that is how Palpatine foresees it, but the problem is Sidious doesn't foresee being thwarted by Luke in another way.
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