Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

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  1. kataja Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
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    With Teneniel Djo is her skin tights? No, I don't think you would :p

    Good point, MS! He didn't count on Luke laying down his arms so completely. Wich strengthens my belief that the 'way of love' that Luke chose, was indeed completely unthinkable to Yoda and Obi-Wan, nothing they planned at all. And I think the silly ways of the Jedi in the PT serve to confirm this.

    Exactly!
  2. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @kataja, ok granted about Djo :D although I feel the story is terrible soap opera fluff.

    On Luke laying down his arms, yes exactly. Yoda would have taught him Force counter proper had Luke not set off to save his friends. Still he was schooled enough with the saber to fight, both Obi-wan and Yoda prepared him to kill the sith in what limited time they had to train him. The problem is Luke did not complete his training proper so Luke could not overpower both through strength(at the time) but Luke wasn't concern with that. He wants to save his father which both his masters thought was impossible yet Luke found a way

    On Yoda's hesitancy, it was a ruse and a lesson to make certain Luke started off with a right mind about the Force. Humility had to be instilled in Luke with his emotions
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 19, 2013
  3. JediMatteus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    i would say Luke gained some humility after losing to vader in ESB
  4. kataja Jedi Master

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    I'd put it this way: humility was always a part of Luke's character - but it was conflicting with his impetuosity and will to prove himself. Indeed, both traits are sides of the same coin: sincerity, which I see as the very essence of Luke. But the rashness only had ach ance to bloom after Luke joined the Rebellion - and for a time, I think it overshadowed his humbleness. Upon the encounters with Yoda and Vader, things fell to their natural places.
  5. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

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    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  6. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 6
    kataja :
    I agree. For a fledgling Jedi, I thought Luke was pretty impressive with what he accomplished. It's not like Luke had been a Jedi master for a few decades. He was a newly-minted knight, after all.







    Darth_Pevra :
    I agree about this. The original Star Wars novel was actually titled: Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker. I think Luke was originally supposed to be the most important character in the SW saga, but then Lucas got enamored with Anakin Skywalker and suddenly the whole saga was supposed to be about HIM. Perhaps now with the filming of the ST, the pendulum of importance will once again swing back to Luke.

    I find it interesting that the comic books are again focusing on the OT era and characters. There is supposed to be an animated series that will be OT-oriented too. It seems as though they are trying to reintroduce Luke and the other OT characters to the audience in preparation for the return of those characters and the OT era.








    Jedi Ben:
    I don't know that I agree with that though, JB. Yoda and Ben *could* have trained Luke from infancy. In fact, at the end of the RotS novel Obi-wan was talking about them doing just that. That's when Yoda disagreed and said something about Jedi training not being the only path to self-discipline. He also spoke in RotS about being wrong; making mistakes; and not allowing the Jedi Order to grow and change. So, I think Yoda may have changed his mind about training Jedi from very young childhood despite what he said to Luke when Luke arrived on Dagobah.


    Yes, and Luke succeeded in his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor probably far better than Yoda expected he would.


    That may have been part of it, but I think a larger part had to do with the fact that Yoda seemed to think that the Jedi Order had to change. Maybe one of those changes was that Jedi didn't need to be trained as infants/very young children. Maybe Yoda decided that Luke and Jedi in general needed to spend time with their families; learning to interact with and respect other people who didn't have the ability to use the Force.



    kataja :
    Yes, I think so too.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    That's a great point! Even half-trained, Luke would be far more powerful than most other fully-trained Jedi.



    Very definitely! Luke seems to be very gifted at this. And yes, I don't think anyone else could have defeated Vader except for his son, Luke.


    I haven't read them, but from what I've heard about them, I agree.
  7. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    And this is something that annoys me greatly with George. He doesn't want his fans to chose. He rather forces his own vision down our throats and attempts to manipulate us into liking what he likes. The meddling with the OT and introduction of PT elements, the downplaying of Luke and OT-Vader and gushing on Anakin, his insane focus on the clone wars ... It is pretty clear which trilogy he likes best.

    We can only hope for. I don't want the PT era to be swept under the rug, but the main focus now should be on the OT, especially in light of the ST.
  8. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Lucas got it the wrong way around - a prequel is supposed to add and enhance the story it is preceding, not undermine it, the OT should take precedence over the PT, just as ESB/ROTJ are sequels to ANH which is, however much Lucas may not like it, where Star Wars starts from.
  9. DarthJenari Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    I can see it both ways the original material should always be respected, but it's also part of a universe that was at the time it was created still changing. ROTJ is far different from Lucas originally had in mind when he was making ANH, which is as a final product different from the first draft. I'd say it's natural to have new ideas, new concepts, and want to incorporate them into the universe, and that any creator will at the end of the day do what they feel to be right and what can work best, or be a good addition to their work. Not necessarily give a giant middle finger to every fan or anything, but still keep their own happiness with the work in mind.
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  10. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    star 7
    Most creators have a damn sight more coherence to their vision than Lucas who can't even cohere with his own work!
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  11. DarthJenari Jedi Master

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    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Well that's simply the nature of such things, where some are better at creating coherence than others. I'm not excusing the flaws, just saying I can understand from where they originate.
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  12. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    But with their own work? It's one thing for it to happen in a shared universe with multiple writers but doing a 180 degree flip doesn't really endear me to any author.

    Steven Erikson went and blasted a big hole in his Malazan series for me with precisely this kind out of nowhere move.
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  13. DarthJenari Jedi Master

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    Dec 17, 2011
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    LOL yeah with their own work dude. Creators/Writers mess up and use retcons all the time, or just never explain sudden changes.

    EDIT: In the interest of keeping this thread Luke-Centric I wish to say that I was re-reading FOTJ recently and stumbled across a point where Luke thinks of Ben, and goes so far as to think of him as one day being the next Grandmaster of the Jedi. Now there's nothing wrong with this in essence, Ben could possibly, maybe someday grow into a person worthy of the role. What bothered me however was that Luke was thinking of it as something that would definitely happen, as if it was preordained, like a dynasty of kings or something. Really as if there couldn't possibly be anyone else save Ben who'd be worthy of taking on the mantle one day. Luke's already decided its going to be Ben regardless.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, May 20, 2013
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  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Reading the recent posts has convinced me of one thing - compared to you lot, I'm nowhere near as cynical as I thought!
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  15. Nobody145 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 5
    I'm still wondering when Ben moved from sort-of apprentice to full on Jedi Knight. Not like he had a great Master, long training period, faced a great trial and proved his worthiness, just at some point they started calling and treating him as a full Knight. :rolleyes: But then the books are so busy pushing Ben and Allana as the next greatest thing (Del Rey's own creations while most of the previous young Jedi have been killed or neglected in literary limbo at best), little details like Knighting Ben aren't important. Its why I wish Ben hadn't gone with Luke on his extended chase sequence in FotJ. Well, technically it started out as a search, even an odyssey, a quest to find out what's wrong wit the current younger Jedi, but then it devolved into "Catch the Sith! Catch the Sith!" then "Catch Abeloth! Catch Abeloth!" for the rest of the series.

    Of course they couldn't do much even with Jaina on Coruscant, but then I sometimes wonder if it weren't for the Legacy comic requiring a Fel empress if they wouldn't have gone three for three with the Solo kids. Still, if Ben had been on Coruscant, maybe they would have bothered to split up the plot developments between Luke and everybody else a bit more equally. Luke is great and all but he can't do everything himself, that is supposed to be what the Jedi Council and the New Jedi Order are for, but hard to see the novels using the NJO well. Its sad that some of the coolest NJO Jedi I can think of were from the Legacy comic (Wolf Sazen for instance).

    I hate all the focus on the Clone Wars too and would love more post-RotJ Luke stories (well, as long as its not more novels) but... not sure when the quote was from, but somewhat sure at some point it was mentioned Lucas felt RotJ was the end of the Star Wars saga. Obviously that doesn't count anymore with the upcoming sequels, but for a while that quote was true since every rumor focused on either something Clone Wars related or Dark Times related, and usually without much imagination or initiative either (I think the 1313 game was going to focus on Boba Fett before Lucasarts was shut down, something I'm still ambivalent about since many of us remember or at least heard about the glorious 90s, but its been a long time since then). In another thread after reading about a rumor about a Dark Times Ahsoka series/story, I'm kind of horrified that the idea of Ahsoka founding the Rebel Alliance (founding the Rebel Alliance is kind of like finding Death Star plans these days) might be slightly more tolerable than Starkiller doing everything.

    Going back to Luke, one of the worst things about recent years are all these Jedi popping up in the Dark Times. Obi-wan and Yoda were two and they were hiding out, but now we've got quite a few other survivors. At least most of them laid low, trying to avoid drawing attention to explain why they didn't join Luke earlier, but then you have awful stuff like Rahm Kota from TFU, a full-fledged Jedi (part of the Starkiller headache of a story), or even someone like Ferus Olin right near Leia for years. Luke was supposed to be the last of the old, or rather first of the new, piecing together what he could from old records, ruins, carefully hidden and protected archives, etc., without any old Masters around to help teach him, but its getting harder to hold up that idea as the years go by unfortunately.
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  16. Jae-Dec Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2013
    star 2
    I admit I miss the days when it was just Luke on missions doing what he needed to do to save the galaxy. He was always more self assured and willing to take chances. Now that the emphasis is more on the students and new Masters, Luke has become more subdued. Of course I understand that he is older now and that he has to play the role of the mentor. But even when he does go into battle, there just seems to be a disconnect from the way he used to fight and use the Force. I truly believe that authors are really missing the boat lately with his character. Sure he is an older Jedi, but it doesn't mean he is ready to be put into an assisted living home. Give him back the energy that we all enjoyed reading about from the earlier books.
  17. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I attribute to how long you stay on The Del-Rey bandwagon. All those bad calls the publisher made just makes you bitter ;)


    @ChildOfWinds, Luke is not your typical everyday jedi. He's a Skywalker and proud of it ;)

    On Lucas direction, I think his mistake is downplaying the importance of Luke and Leia while selling us the PT. At the time of OT release did anyone think Luke was goin to redeem his father ? No we thought he would have killed all the sith. Yet GL believes that redemption was Luke's single purpose.....er what ? these movies are about choice instead of fate and the consequences of those choices. Luke could have complete his training n defeat the sith the traditional way, he could have turn to the DS, there were a wealth of possibilities for Luke but he chose to save his father. Saying Anakin is the chosen one doesn't erase all the atrocities he has done. Also while he removed Sidious, there is still the Imperial fleet around. I can accept Anakin was destined to defeat Sidious but it's up to his kids to bring peace to the galaxy.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 20, 2013
  18. DarthJenari Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Same here. It was like he went through the events of LOTF and then suddenly he became a full fledged Jedi Knight. And consider this is after he'd spent years neglecting the Force, then "training" with Jacen (And I don't remember it even being an official apprenticeship), then neglected his training while working the the GAG and Jacen, ignored his father's advice, and then basically became a Knight towards the end after he'd started to get it together. What the heck? I say again a YJK series would do wonders for Ben as a character, or at least a standalone. There were good and bad parts to him being with Luke in FOTJ, but I have to agree I would've preferred to see him stay back on Coruscant and have more focus put on him as a character and his interactions with the Order, especially since he's apparently going to be the next Grandmaster.

    If Ahsoka ends up having any connection with forming the Rebel Alliance I might just punch whoever's nearest to me at the time, because i'm so freaking sick of it being retconned as to whose idea it was, who played the biggest part, and who started it all. Starkiller was bad enough because I didn't see it coming at first, Ahsoka would be awful because from the moment she was introduced this is exactly where I feared her character would be taken.

    The more Jedi that survive Order 66 and into the OT Era, the more ridiculous the entire OT tends to become. Obi-Wan and Yoda make two, I could even stretch it to 10, but when you go beyond that it just doesn't make any sense, and then as you mentioned you have Rahm Kota not only surviving, but fighting alongside the Rebellion, yet he was nowhere to be found when Luke was rushing straight from the Death Star without a lick of solid training and basically flying blind. :rolleyes: At least have the decency to keep him on a backwater planet or something. There are well done retcons and badly done retcons. The amount of Jedi floating around after Order 66 is a bad one. Rahm Kota is a worse one, because one of the major plot points of the OT era was the fact Luke specifically was the Last Jedi, and openly fighting on the side of the rebels.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, May 20, 2013
  19. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I agree if Ashoska in any way helps Luke or the Alliance I might just spontaneously combust. I can see her as a vigilante on whatever planet she stays on but I honestly don't want her to come out of the wood work to help out Luke. Consideing how the old order burn bridges with her I can understand her reluctance. although i could see maybe joining Luke's new order considering how close she and Anakin were. It would be interesting if the two met up in the animated series and talk about Anakin over the years.

    About jedi during OT, I seem to recall the actual survivors gave up on being jedi. Some forsake the Force entirely. Others like Krunkh bug me as they seem to avoid Luke at all costs when he was rebuilding the Order. Luke's importance is still there in the comics, as the jedi of old were either fodder for Vader or stop being jedi. They lost hope, Luke reignite that hope back to the galaxy. The whole storyline of FOrce unleashed ruins continuity and diminishes the OT characters, that I have a hard time liking the story concept in general. Star killer is basically proto Luke, who single handily founded the Alliance and defeated Vader while Luke was farming vaproraters. He was pushing star destroyers at age 18 and crapped thunder. He also defeated Vader twice which should never have happen. I don't even know if there was a logical reason why he could pull off Skywalker feats.. Anywho both him and Kota not being mentioned to Luke is a big plot hole which also diminishes Luke's importance. Why need a Skywalker when Starkiller can pull off those crazy abilities. Anywho it's likely that the unleashed series will be heavily retcon or remove as it conflicts with the OT.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 20, 2013
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  20. Jae-Dec Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2013
    star 2
    I have mixed feelings when it comes to Ben Skywalker. While he did spend a lot of time avoiding contact with the Force, he is still an extremely powerful User. In FOTJ even the other Masters concede that being born of two very powerful Force Users means Ben has a special future ahead of him. I really think you need to liken Ben's past with his fathers. Luke didn't even know about the Force until he was a little older then Ben, hence no development of skills. But the potential was always there. It is the same for Ben his heritage gives him great potential plus he also has the added benefit of more Masters to instruct him. In reality, Ben has the potential to be stronger the Luke. Now does that mean if Luke dies in the next book all the Masters will look to him as the Grand Master? Absolutely not. But as Ben continuous to grow stronger in the Force and does prove himself to be a leader, there will more than likely be a time much further in the future when he will be given a serious look.
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  21. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

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    May 8, 2005
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    I think the Jedi council of the NJO don't necessarily have their facts straight. Both Anakin and Luke only had one parent who was Force sensitive(in Anakin's case the Force, that's Luke's grandpappy ;) ) , Palpatine i think was the only force sensitive in his family, and yet they were the most powerful jedi/sith who ever lived with big destinies ahead of them. It doesn't take two force sensitive parents to have an extremes powerful child, as in there isn't a general rule for that
  22. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

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  23. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    I am overjoyed. I'll see Vader again on screen!!! =D=:):D

    I would also be happy to see Ahsoka again. I have come to like her.

    I agree. What people often forget in their attempts to whitewash him of his sins (by calling him a slave or giving him all kind of other excuses) that Vader was still a mass murderer. He deserved to die. That Luke was willing to give him a chance despite this is all the more special. He reached out to the most horrible monster existing ... and succeeded.
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Heh, yeah, if you want to know why SW' moral compass is so screwed, look to ROTJ. It's where a good many other EU stories take their cue from.
  25. Mat Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    True although Luke never tried nor once thought it's possible to redeem Sidious, you can't redeem the devil
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