Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

FULLY AGREE!

Ah no, you seem to not get the idea of quality over quantity Sidious was such a powerful threat that the Force needed to make a bloodline to stop him. Vader despite being debilitated from reaching his true potential was the 2nd most powerful sith. These were the best of the best. The lost Tribe on the other hand are simply the worst....simply the worst. They originally got stranded on a planet during the older Republic era cause the enemy shot them down. Do they leave the planet ? nope they stay until thousands of years have passed and even then it's due to Ship. They easily kill themselves over anything dealing with pride and honor. Vol himself the head honcho decided it was best to have Abeloth come to the planet, despite being warned by his fellow masters. He's responsible for his city burning to the ground....no logic in these guys. Sidious never regarded them as a threat and for good reason. Gaalan could stay in the game with Luke during a duel true, but then again Luke was injured/recovering too like the time he fought with Keuller at his worst. There is nowhere in the entire series of FotJ that the Lost tribe seem like a credible threat, and it's simply because they cannon fodder.

Now can you say that well Luke seem rather restrained in what he could do these type of Sith ?? Hell yes, I think the only scenes that seem average for Luke's power was when he Force waved/grasp 4 sith into a bottomless pit while fighting 10 at a time and when he brought the ceiling down on Abeloth and co.

Now Abeloth on the other hand.....

I felt if they took away her weirdness(tentacles, etc), dwell on her being a DS entity(DS incarnate redux), and focused on her motivations with Luke and her twisted One family then it could have been better. She could have been a constant villain for a while. As long as Luke would be the one and only one to beat her with reaching his untapped power, it would serve as reason for Luke's continual purpose to stop galaxy wide threat greater than Sidious. But we got a dumb cameo/teamup

I still don't get why people think that. The guy was away from the battle using energy drain on BOTH Abeloth and Luke and even still he came out as weak as Luke did after the battle, and Luke was worst off due to the energy drain. yeah he appeared really powerful alright

 

Jedi Ben: !

Of course I understand that to continue telling stories, bad things need to happen; new villains need to appear. But does each succeeding "bad thing" need to be worse than the previous one? Do things need to be so terrible that Luke's Jedi Order is practically wiped out not that many years after his death? Can't authors come up with engaging, exciting stories that don't involve causing the near destruction of the entire galaxy and the Jedi Order and which don't involve galaxy-wide conflicts and threats? What's wrong with a conflict between two worlds or two systems that the Jedi and the GA needs to resolve?

Does everything always need to be so completely dark and depressing? I HATE that the future of SW is worse than the past. Do the villains always need to be Sith, Sith, and MORE Sith, especially these groups consisting of THOUSANDS???

And if they really HAD to completely destroy the future like this, then I would have preferred it if they would have ended Luke, Leia, and Han's story on a high and happy note and given them they're personal "happily ever afters". Then they could have pushed forward 500 years, instead of constantly having the Big Three fight worse and worse villains every few years and not ever achieve a state of relative peace.

And those are the kinds of stories I would prefer to see: The Jedi going about the business of keeping the galaxy safe by facing some non-Sith villains for a change, like crime lords or pirates or slavers. Conflicts don't need to be galaxy shattering.

Again, JB, I found that to be very far-fetched and hard to believe. Let's face it: there is /should be danger in numbers even for Jedi. If a few Jedi face a great number of Sith, those few Jedi are/should be at risk. Sheer numbers can simply overpower them. Even Luke would be hard-pressed to defeat a dozen Sith... and let's not forget that he couldn't even defeat ONE Sith...Galaan...in one of the FotJ books. So, Denning having a small number of Jedi defeat over a thousand SIth didn't work for me. It was impossible for me to suspend disbelief there.





DarthJenari:

I completely agree!






More another time...

 

You know, it takes quite a bit to get me to this point, but I'm pretty much there. I have sketched you numerous positive pictures COW and you would still rather cuddle up to a bottle Bearhuggers Finest Rotgut Whiskey, down the entire bottle and remain wedded to this outlook:



In the face of this, I really have no cards left to play!

 

Jedi Ben :

JB, I admire your ability to find all of the positives in the future that is Legacy. I really, really do! You are for Legacy like Sinerebirth is for LotF. I also appreciate your efforts to try to help me find something to like about that future too. Let's face it though: The fact is, you like Legacy, its characters, and its events, and I just don't. I can't lie and say that I agree with you. I wanted a positive future for the galaxy and its characters and I didn't get it. I wish I could like it, but it absolutely isn't what I wanted. I guess you and I again need to agree to disagree about Legacy and what it does to SW and discuss something else.







VanishingReality:

I liked Luke and the Melters too.

Nicely said, VR!







JediMatteus :

I guess that's true, but it was still a very unsatisfying "conclusion" to the nine book FotJ series though. It really didn't seem like much of an ending or much of a victory, especially with Luke permanently injured.






MasterSkywalker86:

I understand what you're saying, MS. Obviously, some Sith and some Jedi are far more powerful and capable than others. However, there still comes a point where even the most powerful Jedi, like Luke, can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Jedi and Sith are still human (or other species) with human physical vulnerabilities. They are eventually going to tire, and with a constant assault, can be defeated. So too, THOUSANDS of Sith, again by sheer numbers, can cause a LOT of problems, especially since Sith don't mind doing evil or "playing dirty" or using dark side powers. They also can "weaken" a Jedi's position and ability to win a fight by putting innocents in harm's way or between the Jedi and the Sith, as Lumiya did to Luke and Mara during LotF. Even weak Sith can give themselves the advantage because they don't have the same moral qualms that Jedi do.

But they weren't THAT bad. For example, one of them was able to battle Luke to a draw. A small group of them was able to defeat two dozen nightsisters AND their rancors in a very short time. It's true that sometimes authors made them seem like creampuffs, but other times, they fought quite well.
It depended on what the author's plot called for.

As I understand it, they stayed because they had no other means of transport.

Luke was pretty much recovered at that time though. If a few Jedi could easily kill one thousand Sith, then a nearly recovered Luke should have been able to beat Gaalan handily.

And I think that's a big reason why the Lost Sith didn't seem all that weak. If they were really so easy to defeat, why did Luke seem to struggle with them much of the time? The fact that Luke didn't easily defeat them made the Lost Sith seem fairly strong.

Yes, it was a very disappointing ending.

I think it was probably because Krayt walked away from that battle in what seemed like a better state than Luke did even though they fought Abeloth together and both of them seemed to suffer a Force wound. Luke was practically at death's door.

 

and I can understand what you're saying about the sheer numbers could overcome a jedi. But the enemy has been anything but clever, and Luke's jedi have been constantly tested since NJO, while the Lost Tribe has just got back into the galaxy. If you can't take the fact that the jedi took 1000 sith out of the picture then I have no other way to convince you But if you want to believe the Lost Tribe were competent then I'm afraid you're the only one who believes that

have you read the books ?!?!?? the group that you like to reference took down the nightsisters by simply setting them up, had they fail that with 8 sith then they would hardly be a threat. The lost Tribe for the majority of the time were incompetent, I think the only time they seem capable was in Apocalyspe but even then Luke was not worried about them aside of Abeloth.

which shows they're aren't resourceful, they're descendants of losers from the Old Republic war. Quite a legacy they live up to .

not in reality, recovered enough to battle but he was for much of the book still catching his breath(Ben notices this) and restraining his Force use to recuperate his strength. Also we always end with going to this argument but Luke would have defeated Gaalan, there is no doubt about that. And this was a Kyp Durron/Kyle Katarn fighter, so it would take a little longer especially since Luke was still recovering. Gaalan fled the scene with his life and when he arrogantly thought he could bring down Luke. He pulled a Dooku,

The fact that Luke didn't applied more effort to bring down the ship as it fled, when we have seen him resisted a Colony(trillions worth of Force potential) Force enhanced Raynar or his grip that prevented Jacen from moving despite being the second most powerful jedi/sith in the galaxy, or moved a artifical black hole, etc. Simply Luke was written as very toned down with his Force use in FotJ, even Luke detractors have notice this.

But that doesn't really demonstrate how credible a threat the sith are when you limit Luke.It just makes it inconsistent. Ben had no issues defeating a few sabers, hell he was fighting Gavar and at times one of the high masters. Luke I wouldn't say struggled but didn't quite wipe the floor with them as we know he could. The lost tribe were weak, but I would also say for much of the FotJ series that Luke was uncharacteristically limited in Force use, either due to injuries or plot.

But he didn't walk away, he staggered as well. Luke was even prepared for him to attack but he noticed Krayt was limping and Krayt did not have the strength to attack.

 

Luke and Jaina thoroughly wiped the floor with a group of Lost Tribe on Dromund Kaas, ISTR, although I forget how many attacked them.

 

it was 6 sabers, and they also were handicapped due to the DS aura draining their energy, Luke and Jaina finish 3 off each

 

That's one of my favorite lines as well. I think the novel does a great job portraying Luke at an important time in his life. He's uncertain about a lot of things, both what he wants to do with his life, and his place in the Force. He no longer has anyone to guide him and has to really stand on his own against the darkness here.

 

I guess that's true, but it was still a very unsatisfying "conclusion" to the nine book FotJ series though. It really didn't seem like much of an ending or much of a victory, especially with Luke permanently injured.

i agree.

 

Which one was Gaalan? It's been a long time since I read any of the FOTJ books (save Apocalypse, in February), but the only "big" Sith I remember Luke fighting were Taalon and Workan.

 

Gaalan was the one that engaged Luke in Backlash when the sith were picking up the nightsisters. He was a Kyp/katran level threat identified by Luke during the fight. He fled the scene getting in an escape shuttle, and he was able to keep luke from using the force to pull him back down. there was some controversy in how he could use the force to keep luke from stopping him.

 

Did he ever return and fight again, and die? If not, why the wasted potential? As to how he stopped Luke, maybe he added a Force push to Luke's Force pull? Just pushed the wave of Luke's energy back away from the shuttle? It wouldn't even have to be a powerful push, just one enough to back Luke's Force energy off the shuttle.

 

Perhaps, but this has become endemic in your posts over the last few months, it isn't limited to Legacy. And for all you protest that it's only limited to the EU, I'm now sceptical of that. I don't see how you could possibly enjoy the films with the perception you've been demonstrating here.

Frankly, I don't feel we're having a discussion in any real sense - and I do want to haul you out of the doldrums! But you want very much to stay there! The result is I'm not seeing much value in my taking the time to sketch an alternative picture when it's just going to get rejected anyway.

I will throw in this: There is no consistency in the depiction of Jedi or Sith abilities relative to power levels! Trying to create some by extrapolating from single instances is only going to come to failure. There's a reason Power of teh Plot gets invoked - frequently, it is the only way of explanation.

 

sadly not, the argument though maintains that if Luke can Force grasp Jacen and Jacen can't break out of it, then Gaalan should not, nor any sith have a shot.

 

That's true, very true, now that I think about it. And why am I not surprised that FOTJ wasted a villain? Probably the authors just forgot about it; it seems that once Abeloth entered the picture, the entire plot of the first four books (sans Abyss, which still focused on Abeloth) was abolished and the focus shifted to her.

 

Someone has to convert the captured nightsisters into Lost Tribe Sith -- he may be back!!!

 

Hmm, good point. Though considering what Abeloth did to Kesh, he won't be training them there...

 

a lot of inconsistent things happen in FotJ, power levels is one of them

 

Only the Capital city of Tahv; there were/are other population centres and the Sith Temple itself doesn't seem to have been affected.

 

Oh, yeah. Haven't read Ascension since November.

 

Masterskywalker86:

I think their competence depended on the authors and what they wanted for their plot. I do agree that there didn't seem to be anyone as powerful as Luke, but there were at least a few fairly powerful members of the Lost Sith.

It's not that I want to believe that the Lost Tribe were especially competent, it's once again the sheer numbers that boggle my mind. As I said, any Jedi, even Luke, should realistically be able to be defeated when vastly outnumbered. I can see a hundred Jedi killing say, 300 Sith, but don't you think a thousand is a bit much? Hey! Don't get me wrong: I'd like to think that Luke's Jedi are so superior that they can defeat over a thousand Sith while hardly breaking a sweat, but does it really sound plausible, especially since Luke had some struggles at times with just one or a few? And we know that Luke is supposed to be in a class all his own.

The point is, they were able to defeat them. That makes them rather clever. Plus, they did have to defeat those rancors... and we saw that Luke himself had some difficulty with even one rancor.

I would say probably due to plot!

And Luke had to be pushed back to the land of the living by Mara.

Three for Luke and Jaina is a believable number. However, it's not believable that the average Jedi could defeat 10 to 20.







Revanfan1:

And they weren't a "walk in the park" for Luke either, if I remember correctly.







Jedi Ben:

We definitely agree about this, JB!







MasterSkywalker86:

Exactly! This is especially true since Jacen has the Skywalker potential, and the Lost Sith are supposed to be "Sith Lite".







Tim Battershell:

True, TB! However, I suspect it's a strong possibility that the authors have already forgotten that the nightsisters were taken to Kesh...

 

IIRC, he only fought Taalon once before he was basically turning into "another Abeloth." The first time Taalon managed to survive because he was intent on getting to the Font of Power (or maybe the Pool of Knowledge, I can't remember), and he had Gavar and (at the time, IIRC) Vestara with him, so Luke was distracted. The second time Luke had to fight the Abeloth-enhanced Taalon as well as the real Abeloth, and Vestara killed Taalon by basically stabbing him in the back.

As for Workan, I think they only fought once and Luke had one of the other Jedi–it's been a while since I've read Apocalypse and my memory is shoddy so I don't remember which one–helping, but the fight with Workan still lasted quite some time against him, though. And now that I remember it, even then Ben had to shoot Workan in the back.

 

It really did, for most of the series they were largely a waste of space. It wasn't til Apocalypse that they got clever and sneaky. Although we do have that cool quote where the whole entire tribe was afraid of Luke

nope it doesn't make sense at all. although we do have a nice scene in Apocalypse where Luke took on 10 sith, that does seem rather tame for Luke. I mean that should be typical for Luke.

defeat them while they had their guard down, it's about context too Child. Aside of Luke force pushing the rancor though, he should have been doing that far more in the book admittedly.

cause he was ready to die at that point and meet up with Mara. It wasn't due to his injuries, it was due to his will.

actually 3 for Luke and Jaina is rather low for those two. Luke took on 10 in Apocalyspe and Jaina took on more than 4. Also you seem to be forgetting Luke and the order took them out through stealth and diversion tactics on their own turf. So it won't necessarily be a battle of brawn on brawn.

yup

 

So I reread Dark Empire II, and I'm a bit mixed on how I feel Luke is characterized in it. Veitch writes him as very, very single minded; his only priority in the comic is to revive the Jedi, to the point where he, intentionally or not, comes off as somewhat cold to everyone else around him. On one hand, maybe Luke would be that focused and intent on rebuilding the Jedi at this point. On the other, I've always felt Luke is a character who genuinely likes people, as individuals, and wouldn't be putting the Jedi so far up on his priorities that he would all bug ignore his sister until the last minute.

That said, I absolutely love that scene with Sedriss. In my mind, that plays out like a scene from Joss Whedon show or movie. Sedriss, snarling and circling Luke, taunting him and telling him all the horrible things he's going to do to the Emperor's old pet, while Luke just stares at him. Sedriss charges, howling at the top of his lungs, and Luke simply puts his hand out and Sedriss flies back, disarmed and very humiliated.

Of course, the fact that he was killed by a tree somewhat sours that scene.

Also on the Dark Empire front: there's a very cool fan novelization of it, called The Test of Wills, that may be worth a look if you're looking for a more introspective look at Dark Empire. Granted, Luke's characterization isn't perfect throughout it, but it does get excellent near the end. One really nice touch that I enjoy is a segment that has Luke, in his mind, dueling with a "dark" version of himself. As Luke is about to strike him down (where, in reality, he's about to strike Leia down), he realizes that trying to defeat his dark side is the wrong idea. He realizes, at that point, that he can't kill his own dark side, that it will be something he has to face and defeat every day.

The fight between the Emperor and Luke is also incredibly well done: the author does a really great job of making these two the ultimate personifications of the light and the dark. There's something that he does that could have been really cheesy, but ended up being fairly cool as well, by describing the characters with the film titles.

There was Palpatine the Undying, the great Galactic Emperor, the manifestation of the dark
side of the Force, in all his abysmal glory, all his great and terrible majesty. He was a void of hunger
and narcissism, a voracious abyss that would never be satisđed until he had consumed all things
and plunged the universe into eternal darkness. He had embraced the dark side even before he was
born, he basked in its cold abyss. The peoples of the galaxy had become complacent in the light of
the Jedi’s vigil, and he had plunged them into darkness.


He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and
lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He
had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania,
to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises—the Force, the sublime
Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current—and in all
its traditions—the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir,
the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned
the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of
the lightsabre. He knew the secrets of Quey’tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro,
Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of
years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past—a phantom
menace—the revenge of the Sith


There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of
the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty
and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a
planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He
had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil
Empire; he had redeemed the soul of a mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor’s
iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the
Sith’s reign, and he had brought them light.


He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by
the deaths of both his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights;
he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the
Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the
wreck of the Chu’unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still
remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know
their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious
and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways
of the Jedi Knight’s blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He
did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their
Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to
the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future—a new hope—the
return of the Jedi.


The one could never tolerate the existence of the other.

 

I notice they also used Hand Of Thrawn book titles as well. Maybe the writer is a Zahn fan?