Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
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    Despite that however, and since we're currently talking about the problem that was Darth Caedus as a threat, I still found Kueller to be a worthy opponent for Luke in the novel.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  2. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

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    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86:
    Oh yeah there were multiple scenes where Luke overpowers Jacen. Meaning Jacen should have used his stealth and guile rather than brute force.

    Yes, that would have been the smart thing for Jacen to do.


    On a different topic, I'm probably going to rely on you Child to give me the details of Luke in Crucible and his feats. Cause at this point I rather reread my collection of EU books than deal with the new direction.


    Believe me, I understand. From the spoilers I've read, it doesn't sound like I'm going to like it. I'll see if I can find a library copy.


    @Revanfan1, I love that Luke is lower than 10% of his abilities due to his injuries and yet still stalemates Kueller :D

    So why couldn't he do better against Galaan who is supposed to be a member of the Sith Lite group?






    JediMatteus: Jacen wasn't in Luke's league in terms of mastery of the Force
    maybe but Jacen was still quite a bit more powerful than Saba, Kyp, Kyle, and even Jaina

    I can agree about that!






    Revanfan1:
    Yeah! Luke can ROFL-stomp anyone–or he should.

    Yep!!!
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  3. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    Nov 28, 2009
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    [IMG]
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Jul 10, 2013
  4. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    You'll find, I think, that that's not a very popular opinion around here. :p
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  5. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    Nov 28, 2009
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    Oh, I've waded through this thread enough in the past to be certain of that.
  6. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    @Sable_Hart, still it doesn't mean we don't respect your opinion on the matter just because you differ :) In fact it's not common when all the regulars here agree on something 100%. For instance, JB and Kataja share your feelings on Luke's power level.
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  7. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
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    On that subject, I've made my opinion clear: Luke should be unmatched in his personal areas of expertise, namely lightsaber combat and Force ability. That doesn't mean he can't be outsmarted or beaten, but stay respectful to the character by not having him lose at his own game, even if he can be beaten in others. That stems from my same belief that there should never be a Sith more powerful, dangerous or successful than Palpatine, but I have no problem with people like Thrawn being presented as his equal or superior in the field of military tactics.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jul 10, 2013
  8. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    @ChildOfWinds, I don't know Kueller's power range but he did not seem to be at Kyp's level, so I assumed Gaalan was more of challenge than anything Kueller could do.
  9. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    @instantdeath, bingo. I would even toss in there flight skills as well as a skill that Luke is unmatched in
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Jul 10, 2013
  10. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
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    Personally, I like to think that Han is a better pilot than Luke, with Wedge being around an even match, even if Courtship of Princess Leia had to give him brief god skills in that area (I prefer to think it was a temporary "one with the Force" thing, which is a handy narrative cheat to explain a character being more powerful or skilled than they should be). In addition to being one of the fastest draws in the galaxy, being the best pilot is kind of Han's thing (after Anakin, I suppose). I've always kind of hated the idea that Jedi are naturally better at everything, though Luke does get a free pass for being one of the best in the galaxy considering he was one of the best long before he learned to use the Force.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Jul 10, 2013
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  11. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    I like to think of it as Han being the best non-force sensitive pilot and Luke being the best Force sensitive pilot around. As Han is relying more on his own skills and experiences, I can see why you hold him in the top position. But I believe Luke has done more stuff since CoPL to also be on the top and the Force can give an edge to those who already have a skill in flying. You'll remember Obi-wan wasn't that great of pilot despite his Force abilities.
  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Imo nobody should be able to ROFL stomp every opponent he comes across, whether it is a hero or villain.

    And yes, for me Han Solo is the best pilot. It was a disgrace when he was painted as so much inferior than his kids in VP. The force doesn't automatically make you better in everything.
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Actually it looked to me like he was better in VP in terms of actual skill- their only advantage over him was prescience.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    First they had longer "survival times" against the asteroids (four times longer or so) and secondly they even had to save his ass because of some malfunction. The scene very much felt as if the kids were just superior because of the force.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 11, 2013
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  15. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    @Darth_Pevra, you can file the Solo twins piloting skills(at least Jacen and Anakin) underneath the big fat inconsistencies folder of NJO. Jaina was always characterized as a good pilot like her dad,uncle, and grandfather. so that doesn't bother me as much since she did well in a simulation. Also it's proven that simulations don't mean a damn when dealing with the real thing.

    As for the Solo brothers, they never came off as great pilots just exceptional. And even then that seems to be due to their Force abilities instead of their piloting skills.

    Ironically enough what Luke lacked in displaying Force ability during the majority of NJO due to restraining his Force use, he did maintain a good set of piloting feats during the Vong war. Didn't he fly a snub fighter with no shields while dodging laser cannon fire or the Vong equivalent ?
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    That Jaina was able to beat him was okay. I mean she really trained for it. But Jacen and Anakin really shouldn't have been able to beat Han, force or not. If someone is a specialist in a certain field a Jedi shouldn't automatically be better than him/her.

    Luke flew in a snubfighter in rebel dream I think. He kicked ass! :)
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 11, 2013
  17. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    Hence I like to view it as there is a best force sensitive pilot and a best non force sensitive pilot. Anakin and Luke fulfill the former for those respective eras and perhaps overall, Han would be be for the latter of course. Dunno who in PT would be considered the best non force sensitive pilot though.
  18. kataja Force Ghost

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    May 4, 2007
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    Doesn't that depend on whether the Jedi is using the Force or not. I know it's one of EU's most inconsistent areas, but many authors often suggest that a Jedi has to 'tap into the Force' consiously for certain skills. At least for top notch result (as some stuff, like danger sence etc. seems to function anyway, at least for some Jedi) So if a Jedi'd tap into the Force - like Luke did with Guri in SOTE - he could be able to beat soemone with far more skills, but that didn't have the Force. At least if the Force fancy's it at that time. But if the Jedi would just 'go normal' he'd just get a few stuff from the force and thus a skilled guy can beat him. We do KNOW that skilled people like Grevious or Mandos can kills Jedi so....

    As for the Solo kids, the question rises how to view the next generation. I don't see a problem if their combo of super - fly.genes (Solo + Skywalker) plus their background (c'mon - Han, Luke adn Leia must have trained them since they tripled the manger EVEN if we don't quite see it in the present stories!!!) plus Jedi abilities, should guarantee a pretty heavy cocktail. Just like Ben should be able to kick butt (Mara was quite a pilot too).

    Indeed, I always find power level talk tidious. I like the characters and particularly Luke given the credit they should have - but I can easily see how this is in conflict with the desire for an exiting plotline (as that's usually depending on a convincing enough villain). So I'm ok with a few faults here and there plus a tad depowered heroes.
    Last edited by kataja, Jul 11, 2013
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
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    Does that change much? Jedi are constantly shown as actively tapping into the force in the middle of snubfighter battle (I just recently read about Kyp moving one of the tiny vong black holes). It would seem to me that someone who can tap into the force has a really huge advantage over someone who can't.

    You're right that we do know some badass normals can beat Jedi, but how often does this actually happen in the EU? Almost never and personally I am already sick of the Jedi superiority everywhere.

    I think piloting has more to do with skills than genes. I mean sure you need good eyes and reflexes, but the rest is probably training.

    As for your point: I could accept Anakin and Jacen being decent pilots, but they should not be able to beat Han! Han is a great pilot with lots of flight hours under his belt. If even he can't beat Jedi at his own game, who the hell can?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 11, 2013
  20. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    Apparently the Force didn't help PLO Koon when he got shot down :/
  21. kataja Force Ghost

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    May 4, 2007
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    I can see why you're sick of it. It passes my own filter, but I can definitely see why. But isn't that the case about all heroes - they' generally win miraculously - with the Jedi it's probably just juxtaposed, as they "have the Force, after all"

    About piloting, Ben Kenobi says in ANH novelization: "Piloting and navigation aren't heriditary, but a number of the things that can combine to make a good small-ship pilot are." He then adds. "Still, even a duck has to be taught to swim." (p. 75) And I definitely think Han in Falcon, could beat a Jedi. Has taht ever been questionned? And no-one with normal self-rpreservence would dare to out him up against Luke and let Han lose!

    Still, it would also be a question of time. Reflexes slow with age and around fifty, Han would definitely start to slow down. Luke technically would too - but there he'd probably have an advantage with the Force. Han would still be able to beat most in a real fight situation for a long time after that, because of his experience and ever sharpening mind - but in a sim f.ex, he'd probably start to lose to the younger ones at some point. And eventually also in real figths at least when he nears 70.


    Exactly. The Force only works so far. At least when the story requires a character to die...;)
  22. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

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    May 8, 2005
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    I take it as not a failure of the Force but failure on the user. I assume Plo's use of danger sense pick it up too late
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I also have a problem with it because it is hard to ignore David Brins words about the Jedi as Übermenschen when they are constantly shown as outclassing everyone (often the entire Republic is completely dependent on the deeds of a handful of Jedi). It doesn't sit quite right with me, if you know what I mean. I am for equality in real life.

    Apparently not in VP.

    Good point. Though I am not quite sure how fast humans age in SW.
  24. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Gotta sympathize with you there!!! Then, that strikes an important but difficult thing about fantasy - it's built on old mythological and cultural structures - when do we accept them for the sake of tradition and loyalty to the story - and when should we challenge them due to the lessons we should ahve learned form histpry? The equation is hard...

    Ah, bad then Salvatore got hands full by his death wish for other reasons ;)

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  25. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    That gives me another reason to dislike RA Salvatore (I can't stand his original word).

    My retcon: Han was really, really drunk. Or he let his kids win :p