1. Post spoilers in the official The Force Awakens spoiler thread only, using a spoiler tag! Violators will be banned!

Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    Ah, I vaguely remember something about a pirate fleet. I'd never expect Luke to actually do it, but hey...Sith are mortal enemies of the Jedi and they're working for Abeloth. So "forgot" works best. ;)
  2. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Oh believe me I would have loved to seen Luke do that too
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  3. EmeraldJediFire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2012
    star 4
    I personally loved when he used the fallanasi illusion twice in LOTF. Both times were against Jacen

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.
  4. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Personally I loved in DE where Luke kept the Star Destroyer from crashing via telekinesis
  5. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Reread Empire's End, and yeah, it's pretty much as bad as I remember. Luke was fine in it, but he was barely in it at all, so I can't really comment. Palpatine, though... he really should have just stopped with Dark Empire, since DEII was pretty much the exact same story.

    I am looking forward, though, to finally reading all the post-JAT bantam era books, and then finally moving on the NJO.
  6. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Luke hardly does anything in it, although he did Force toppled the statue of Vader on 3 dark Jedi. Still we never get a satisfying conclusion in EE as we did in DE 1 between Luke and Sidious. I look forward to your analysis on the rest of the Banatm books. Although you'll notice a dip in quality from TTT til you get to HoT.There is one feat where Luke projects a Force shield over a group of people. I can't remember where it happens but I remember it deals with lava. JAT has a similar scene where Luke walks over lava :)
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    If you want to see what Jim Baikie can really do, read the story he did with Alan Moore - the gloriously anarchic DR & Quinch!
  8. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Was he the artist? Yeah, the one good thing I can say about Empire's End is that the art was a marked improvement, particularly Leia.
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Yup.

    I found EE's art a big step down, but then it was likely a rush job anyway.
  10. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    i thought i posted here that i finshed Crucible, but my post is gone. anyway i was dissapointed, although the ending was pretty cool.
  11. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    instantdeath:

    I agree with that. As MasterSkywalker said, I also think Luke is one of three of the very best pilots in the galaxy. He was a very good pilot even before he could use the Force, and I don't think Luke ever even had much, if any, formal pilot training back on Tatooine. Yet, he was able to quickly learn how to use an X-wing in time to fight in that huge Death Star battle.

    Luke also flew through the asteroid belt (Lando's Folly) with no shields and managed to save Han and Chewie. He also flew against what Mara said were "thousands" of Coral skippers, again with a damaged ship, AND he flew the Falcon alone while firing all of the guns at the same time in CoPL. I would say that Han is probably the best pilot without the Force, and Luke is the best pilot WITH the Force. However, he also has some very natural pilot skills. Not every Jedi can fly like Luke, you know!


    That doesn't mean he
    can't be outsmarted or beaten, but stay respectful to the character by not having him
    lose at his own game, even if he can be beaten in others.

    I agree with this. It irritates me to no end when Luke is pitted against a no-name opponent and is defeated by that opponent or struggles against that opponent, as with Lomi Plo and Galaan.

    But Luke isn't omnipotent. He is human and has human weaknesses. A group of Sith *can* defeat him. A group of Mandalorians *can* ambush him. He *can* struggle against Darth Caedus, another who is a powerful Skywalker descendant. But going one -on-one against someone who is clearly not at Luke's level shouldn't be written as a terrible struggle for him either.


    Personally, I like to think that Han is a better pilot than Luke, with Wedge being around
    an even match, even if Courtship of Princess Leia had to give him brief god skills in
    that area

    I'd say that Luke and Han are probably pretty close in pilot skills. There have been a number of times when Luke has been shown to be a terrific pilot, not just in CoPL. So, while it's possible that Han has the edge over Luke, I'd say they're pretty close. Han is also certainly better than Luke in using a blaster and in hand-to-hand combat.

    Luke does get a free pass for
    being one of the best in the galaxy considering he was one of the best long before he
    learned to use the Force.

    Yes, that's exactly why I think that Luke would have been a great pilot like Han even if he didn't have the Force and wasn't a Jedi Master.






    MasterSkywalker86
    As Han is relying more on his own skills and
    experiences, I can see why you hold him in the top position.

    But Luke was an excellent pilot before he learned to use the Force, so it's not because Luke is a Jedi that he's a great pilot.

    . Didn't he fly a snub fighter with no shields while dodging laser cannon
    fire or the Vong equivalent ?

    Yes, he was flying against thousands of Vong coralskippers until Mara's ship was able to "catch" him and bring him in. I think it was in Vector Prime, but I'm not certain.







    kataja:
    About piloting, Ben Kenobi says in ANH novelization: "Piloting and navigation aren't
    heriditary, but a number of the things that can combine to make a good small-ship pilot
    are."

    Thanks for reminding me of Ben's quote!

    I definitely think Han in Falcon, could beat a Jedi. Has taht ever been questionned?

    This was definitely suggested, I think, by having Han be so shocked that Luke was able to fly the Falcon alone while firing all four quad guns at the same time.

    And
    eventually also in real figths at least when he nears 70.

    Somewhat, possibly, but if the average lifespan is 120 and Jedi can live longer, than nearing 70 should still be late middle age. Look at Dooku in his late 80's or 90's. He was pretty amazing!






    Jedi Ben: That's the sense I had throughout the trilogy, Luke holding back, being paralysed, being
    restrained while the Killiks cause chaos then at the end... WHAM. Why not just do that at
    the start?

    That was my question throughout that series. I also never really understood why/how Lomi Plo could defeat him more than once. She is nowhere near as powerful or skilled as Luke Skywalker! I was very annoyed!







    Sable_Hart:
    Denning!Luke has fallen a long way from his Dark Nest days.

    I thought Luke was pretty terrible in DN too!

    For the record, it annoys me
    just as profoundly when Luke is threatened by a no-name Sith as it does when Luke defeats
    legions of them with the blink of an eye.

    Thanks! I actually agree with you about both. Luke shouldn't be able to defeat legions of Sith. No one should be able to do that. But he shouldn't have difficulty with one weak Sith or Nightsister either.

    But I don't think Luke ever did defeat a legion of Sith. But I agree that he shouldn't be able to take on a group of Sith AND Abeloth at the same time and win.


    Fate of the Jedi was downright terrible, from start to finish.

    You certainly won't get an argument from me about that! Hey! We're actually agreeing quite a bit today! ;)


    I've made my stance obnoxiously clear that Luke should be top tier but in no way
    infallible. Thrawn is a superior tactician; Luke should stand no chance against him in a
    naval battle.

    While Thrawn would definitely have the advantage there, I wouldn't say that Luke would have "no chance" either. Thrawn isn't infallible either as the Noghri proved.







    Kataja: newdawn12 said:
    Any opinions on Luke in Crucible?
    Yes. :p
    But when are we allowed to discuss that? And who's read it on this thread?

    Isn't the rule that you can't post spoilers except in the spoiler thread for two weeks after a book comes out and then you need to post with spoiler tags in other threads for a while after that?
    I haven't read the book yet, but I don't mind spoilers.







    MasterSkywalker86: yeah, it work in a way as we got to see Luke utilize his other resources, such as using his mechanical skills to hot wire his hand. But I prefer a balance of him using his Force
    skills, as well as his other abilities.

    I prefer that balance too. Sometimes authors seem to forget that Luke has other gifts and talents besides his Force gifts. Certainly Zahn seemed to forget that in Allegiance and CoO. :mad:But I love to see Luke doing Force feats too, especially sort of new and different ones that he adapts from skills used against him. I also especially like seeing Luke having visions of the future that pan out!







    DarthJenari : Didn't necessarily believe it wholeheartedly, but it was a nice view of things.

    I don't think that Jedi should be using the Force all the time for everything or that they always have to do WOW feats. However, I really *do* like to see Luke show us his full potential at times, and I see nothing wrong or evil about using one's gifts to the fullest either.

    The point
    where he crossed a line was where he outright said Luke had been tainted by the Dark Side
    for decades, and had also been drawing on it when he chose to use it as a solution to a
    problem.

    I DEFINITELY agree about that! The idea that Luke and everything he did for over a decade were tainted by the dark side was ridiculous, in my opinion, and very annoying. I don't agree with Zahn at all about this, and I contend that Mara (and Zahn) were completely wrong about this!






    Revanfan1:
    And I agree. No way had Luke been tainted
    for decades. That's wrong, wrong, sooooo wrong.

    Completely wrong!!!






    JediMatteus: i have not gotten very far into crucible, maybe 40% through it, and all the characters
    feel static. No real personality based on previous works.

    Can you PM me about whether or not you liked Luke in the book? Thanks!






    EmeraldJediFire :
    I personally loved when he used the fallanasi illusion twice in LOTF. Both times were
    against Jacen


    I enjoyed those as well!

    Welcome back, by the way! Haven't seen you for a while!






    MasterSkywalker86:
    Personally I loved in DE where Luke kept the Star Destroyer from crashing via telekinesis

    That was, indeed, a great feat!
    Last edited by ChildOfWinds, Jul 15, 2013
    Son of a Bith and Revanfan1 like this.
  12. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    exactly, there's a reason why Biggs called him the "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim Territories".

    Also in Inferno, he awed Jaina in how he flew his fighter.

    right, Obi-wan, Plo Koon, and Jacen are some examples of jedi who aren't really good pilots.


    by legions, what numbers are we talking ? I don't think we ever witness Luke fight an army of Sith of his own. The general rule is that no sith should be Sidious's equal.....although I'm curious how the ST will pan out this idea(maybe DP will be worst than his apprentice), so any of these sith like the Tribe should not give Luke trouble. Now if Luke had to face dozens of sith who have Skywalker levels of powers equal to his and he won the battle unscathed, then I would cry wolf. The only way I can see him winning that one is if he outsmart them or pick them off one by one.

    I think the writers didn't know at the time Abeloth's abilities or power level, she seem to be Luke's equal in power up to that point. It's not til later we find out her to be a Force god :rolleyes:

    agreed.


    I would be very happy if Luke gets to do that in Episode 7 :D
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Jul 15, 2013
  13. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Overall he says it's supposed to represent the idea that you're ultimately at the mercy of the Force and whatever designs that it has for you, and he used his river metaphor that he has Jacen use in The Joiner King IIRC.


    I took this off the Crucible thread, not necessarily a direct quote from Denning, but I thought the gist of it basically sums up some of the problems we been having with Legacy era books and their execution. Apparently Denning disregard the films message and interpreted the Force as only destiny, it wasn't destiny that turned Anakin into a monster nor was it destiny that Luke saved his father at almost the cost of his life. It was freedom of choice. It was choice that alter the Chosen One's path from savior to mass murderer and it was choice that the New Hope didn't followed his father's path or to killed him but to obliterate his DS persona of Vader and bring back his father. The films demonstrate choice and the consequences of those choices, the Force sorts out all the rest.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Jul 18, 2013
  14. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Yep, I think a good example of this is referenced in....The Revenge of the Sith novelization when it's being argued where the twins should be hidden. Or it may be The Last of the Jedi book series, can't remember which. It's either Yoda or Qui-Gon that points out that Tatooine itself isn't an tainted place. It doesn't make people evil, so no one that grows up there is destined for darkness. The argument's being made in terms of why Luke being taken and raised there isn't dooming him to repeat his father's actions. He (Yoda or Qui-Gon) notes that it was the life Anakin led and the choices he made that created Darth Vader.
    ChildOfWinds likes this.
  15. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @DarthJenari, bingo. The films could not be any clearer on the matter, Sidious saw in his visions that Luke Skywalker could destroy both him and Vader with the power of the Force, instead he was destroyed by love of father and son. The films basically spit in the face of predestination. You make your own path and the Force adapts to your decisions. For instance if Vader was truly irredeemable then the Skywalker twins would be ones to finish their father's job. The Force I like to believe has an insurance policy :)
  16. marmkid Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2001
    star 4
    when is the spoiler ban lifted on Crucible?
  17. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Hey there marm :) usually 2-4 weeks after release
  18. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Welcome back, Marm!!!

    I just checked the rules thread, and it says that the spoiler period lasts for 30 days. :( Spoilers may only be posted in the spoiler thread until then. I had thought that it was only for two weeks and that then you could post in other threads with spoiler tags, but that doesn't seem to be the way the rule reads now ....
  19. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86:
    Also in Inferno, he awed Jaina in how he flew his fighter.

    True! I had forgotten about that! That should be quite a compliment, as Jaina was presented as quite a good pilot herself in VP when she was flying through Lando's asteroid belt. But then, Luke was portrayed as even better than Jaina, as he later flew that belt with no shields in his rescue mission.

    by legions, what numbers are we talking ? I don't think we ever witness Luke fight an army of Sith of his own.

    No, I don't remember any occasion where Luke was written as fighting "legions of Sith". In fact, I think the most Luke faced at one time was probably when he was nearly at death's door after mind-walking in Abyss, where he faced four, I think.

    I would say that the one character who was written as facing and defeating the most Sith at one time was Jaina in Apocalypse, but she didn't face "legions" of them either, though she did face quite a few.


    Overall he says it's supposed to represent the idea that you're ultimately at the mercy of the Force and whatever designs that it has for you,

    I completely disagree with Denning about that!

    I took this off the Crucible thread, not necessarily a direct quote from Denning, but I thought the gist of it basically sums up some of the problems we been having with Legacy era books and their execution.

    Yes, if that's truly what Denning believes, I can indeed see why we have problems in the Legacy era books. :(:mad:

    Apparently Denning disregard the films message and interpreted the Force as only destiny, it wasn't destiny that turned Anakin into a monster nor was it destiny that Luke saved his father at almost the cost of his life. It was freedom of choice. It was choice that alter the Chosen One's path from savior to mass murderer and it was choice that the New Hope didn't followed his father's path or to killed him but to obliterate his DS persona of Vader and bring back his father. The films demonstrate choice and the consequences of those choices,

    Well said, MS! I agree with you! It was freedom of choice, not destiny that changed the course of the galaxy.







    DarthJenari:
    He (Yoda or Qui-Gon) notes that it was the life Anakin led and the choices he made that created Darth Vader.

    Exactly! Anakin wasn't destined to become Darth Vader. He chose to become Darth Vader by making very bad choices.






    MasterSkywalker86:
    Sidious saw in his visions that Luke Skywalker could destroy both him and Vader with the power of the Force, instead he was destroyed by love of father and son. The films basically spit in the face of predestination. You make your own path and the Force adapts to your decisions.

    Nice point!

    Luke once asked Obi-wan if the Force controlled your actions, and Obi-wan said that it also obeyed your commands.
  20. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Agreed completely. While I like the term "the will of the Force", I believe it's a somewhat misleading term. In my personal interpretation, the Force is life. Nothing more, nothing less. Life is governed by choice. Thus, the Force isn't a being with a personality. It isn't a God, it can't be angry and does not make decisions on its own. I really hate the idea that, say, Jacen has to be evil because that's what the Force has planned for him.

    You're absolutely right in saying that, when Luke defied the Emperor and Anakin killed him, they weren't just puppets on a string. In that moment, both he and Luke made a choice.
    ChildOfWinds and Revanfan1 like this.
  21. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    exactly...probably the only thing that RA got right in VP.

    actually I remember more, I know he grabbed four sith with the Force and toss them to a pit, but he was fighting more than just that.


    thank you, right Luke made up his own destiny, not the other way around. Although admittedly he was destined for great things
  22. Mat Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  23. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    instantdeath :
    Life is governed by choice. Thus, the Force isn't a being with a personality. It isn't a God, it can't be angry and does not make decisions on its own. I really hate the idea that, say, Jacen has to be evil because that's what the Force has planned for him.

    I agree with you! I don't know where Denning got his idea, because it's obvious from the films that the characters make their own choices, for good or bad. It was Anakin's decision to become a Sith Lord. No one forced him into it. Likewise, Luke chose to risk his life to try to bring his father back to the Light. No one forced him to do this. In fact, Obi-wan sort of discouraged him, saying that Luke's father was "... more machine than man".

    You're absolutely right in saying that, when Luke defied the Emperor and Anakin killed him, they weren't just puppets on a string. In that moment, both he and Luke made a choice.

    EXACTLY!!! Denning's whole White eyes comment, like the white eye use in the books, makes no sense at all.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    But then, Luke was portrayed as even better than Jaina, as he later flew that belt with no shields in his rescue mission.
    exactly...probably the only thing that RA got right in VP.


    Maybe not the only thing, but one of the few. He just didn't seem to "get" the personalities or traits of the characters very much.

    I know he grabbed four sith with the Force and toss them to a pit, but he was fighting more than just that.

    I still don't consider that to be a "legion" of them though.

    right Luke made up his own destiny, not the other way around. Although admittedly he was destined for great things

    Well said! :)
  24. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    Last edited by JediMatteus, Jul 22, 2013
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    At what point would you say Luke became a "fully formally trained Jedi Knight"?

    Was it immediately after refusing to slay Vader in RoTJ?

    (Yoda "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need ... One thing remains - Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be.")

    Or, was he never really "fully trained" in the movies- instead getting a "crash course" from Yoda, interrupting his training to fight (and lose against) Vader, and becoming a Jedi Knight (without complete training) in RoTJ- training himself further after it?

    In The Crystal Star, for example, Xaverri and Han discuss Luke:

    "I demanded some proof that he was a true representative of the New Republic. He removed his disguise."
    "So he did look different to you, at first?"
    "Very different. But he released me from his influence." She shivered slightly. "He is very skilled, Solo. I did not even know he was affecting me, until he let me go."
    "He's talented," Han said. "But he never had the chance to finish his formal training."
    "Ah," she said. "That's said to be very dangerous."
    "Yes. And he's had occasion to realize it."
    "I had heard ... some rumors on that subject," Xaverri said.
    "Did you?" Han said. "We thought we'd managed to keep it from public knowledge."
    "Perhaps you did," Xaverri replied. "But I am not precisely the public ... and I put considerable energy into cultivating many lines of communication."