Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Mace was also the guy who went to kick Palp's pants.

    ;-)

    Again, also, I get what you're saying Stryker. I disagree.

    While Kyp Durron is selling pants during the Day, he should be kicking ass like his Night Job.

    A Jedi is a Jedi 24-7.
  2. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    I actually like the idea that Luke skated very close to the darkside during the OT. Luke was more innocent and far more stable than Anakin ever was, but the darkside temptation is always there for any Jedi, once Luke had trained enough. He went off to face Vader, despite everyone warning him, and everybody else turned out to be right. Luke survived the confrontation, but was seriously traumatized not only by finding out his father is Darth Vader, but also that Obi-wan lied straight to his face. Fortunately, Obi-wan's Force ghost later showed up to explain things, but essentially, Obi-wan lied. It all turned out for the best, as Luke's faith in his father eventually saved Anakin, but still, at that moment when Luke was standing over Vader, who was missing an arm, he could've struck Vader down and taken his place as Palpatine's second in command and save the Rebel fleet. Well, in theory, but once someone makes a choice... well, its not quite no return, but its very, very difficult. Luke always ended up making the right choice, but it wasn't like "no way, I won't even go evil," it was "..........no." That last saber fight in RotJ showed just how much restraint it took for Luke to not finish off Vader. For most of the rest of Luke's career, Luek has also always chosen right over wrong, but mainly because most of those challenges never quite came close to Palpatine (and Luke was also older and wiser, usually, for all the other times).

    And Jedi are usually closer to special forces operatives/negotiations than soldiers, so fighting starfighters make sense, since its not like they can crew fleets with Jedi. So a starfighter allows Jedi to still be effective during huge battles (especially in StealthXs), or they can help coordinate fleet battles with a Jedi battlemeld, but that's not quite as personal as starfighter flying. And considering how good Luke is in a starfighter, there doesn't seem to be much danger for Luke. He had most people convinced Jaina had shot him down but somehow instead snuck onto Caedus' Star Destroyer and brought Artoo along the whole way.

    I vaguely remember back in Vector Prime, at the dawn (or maybe dusk is more appropiate) of the NJO era, I think some of Luke's Jedi were attending to standard mediations, negotiations and such, negotiations that Nom Anor wrecked, but still, that seemed to be the normal business of Luke's Jedi. Even in VotF, though Luke's New Jedi Order didn't show up much, it was said that they were out there, doing their best to keep the galaxy from erupting in wars again. Heck, Spectre of the Past had Han dragging Luke with him to try to mediate for those two antagonistic (but occasionally reasonable) species.

    And I agree that while the old Jedi Order had flaws, many flaws, their basic intent was still good, and they hadn't strayed too far off a good path. As Yoda said, arrogance was becoming a far too common trait among Jedi, even experienced Jedi who should know better, but all the Jedi still wanted to help out the galaxy however they could. They weren't religious fanatics, and while some decisions were in grey areas, overall their main sins were being too close-minded, old-fashioned, arrogant and complacent. Bad flaws, but not fatal ones, they only helped lead to the death of that Order due to having the arguably worst Sith Lord ever living in the same time period.

    So while I'm annoyed at prequel era problems popping up in LotF, Luke's NJO has actually be pretty stable. Sure, there's a GA civl war going on, but the Masters are united, Kyp's being helpful, there's no rogue Jedi, other than Tahiri and Jacen (and both are special cases) and when the Order deploys, they're usually pretty effective, or they at least have a plan that mostly works (like how Luke single-handedly took out the long-range turbolasers in Inferno, and how a mainly Jedi strike team distracted Caedus while they rescued Allana, though the Jedi didn't much in Revelation, but that's no surprise, considering the author, and I'm not trying to insult the author, but...
  3. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    I don't see Luke as being "closer" to the Dark Side than any other Jedi purely because of his nature. But more because Luke being Luke he deliberately places himself at the coal-face of the fight instead of letting others go there, and that is why he ends up having to face the choice of Light versus Dark so often.

    I don't think that Luke is doing the wrong thing. Most of the time. Looking at the events as they sit in universe I can't see what Luke is doing that is truly, greatly wrong given what he has faced over the period of time since the end of the Bantam era. The Jedi faced a threat that they had very little experience with, and the one advantage that they have had was completely negated. And after having spent nearly 20 years in universe rebuilding the Jedi Order and trying to make sure that it was seen as a paragon of the GFFA once again, a large portion of the galactic population turned against the Jedi, and they were at various points political poison. Fast forward to the Dark Nest trilogy and the response to the central events. The conflagration that occurred was very much driven by the actions of a group of Jedi, a group consisting of some of the publicly recognised figures that will be the future of the order, that caused major strife between a number of very powerful factions in the galaxy at larger during that time period. At the same time , despite what help was existing on the Jedi Council, there were many cases of the Order starting to fractionate. This is something that isn't outside reality as we see this occur in the real world whenever a large group of people come together in a situation that drips with power. Luke's actions then to turn the Order around and place himself very centrally and make it an all-or-nothing affair is one the only options left to him. And when looking at Luke's actions with Lumiya, it's not like he hadn't tried previously. He has tried in books prior to Sacrifice to take her in, and been unsuccessful. In the meantime, there have been continued actions correctly/incorrectly attributed to Lumiya causing more problems and damage. Was there a slight aspect of revenge in what he did, sure. But as others have pointed out there is more to it than just that given the nuances in the way it was written.

    In the run-up to Sacrifice, Luke has been pulled in too many directions at once with little true help. Those who were supposed to be the ones coming of age and maybe beginning to take up some of the reigns of leadership were not. At a time when he might be able to step back and try and connect with his son, he has to take complete control of the Order. He has to play politics with governments that want the Jedi to help clean things up on their terms and hate their 'interference' when it doesn't suit their agendas. He's getting at the end of his tether, and yet still makes mostly the right decisions not loosing his moral compass.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Honestly, I wish they'd treat Luke as CAPABLE OF BEING FALLIBLE yet SIMULTANEOUSLY NOT EVIL.

    Basically, if Luke DID kill Lumiya because of revenge.

    Why does HE get so much hell over it when Han tries to murder his cousin for FAR FAR less.
  5. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Well, tbt Charles I'd give Han a roasting for Bloodlines as well. But, respectfully, I do think you're misinterpreting what it means to be a Jedi. The terms 'Jedi' and 'Knight' are not synonymous. They mean different things. The nature of being a Jedi leads to the knighthood; so behind the 'warrior' image there's a philosophy that needs to be assessed. And imo the PT Jedi Order was assessed, and found seriously wanting. Why have there been so many purges in recent SW eras? From an in-universe perspective, there's one major reason; the Jedi are so disconnected from everyday life that nobody can fathom them, and consequently it's extremely easy to think badly of them. Well, what are the Jedi going to do to connect with real life? There's some scant evidence of development; ex-sex-slaves like Alema, orphans like that kid Jacen rescued from Coruscant's underbelly, but little else.
  6. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    The problem is that these examples were saved by individual Jedi, not the Jedi Order, and only because they were Force sensitives. Daeshara'cor wouldn't have probably saved the Rar sisters if they wouldn't have been Force sensitives, and Jacen probably wouldn't have saved Seha Dorvald if she wouldn't have been also a Force sensitive. So, in the eyes of other non- Force sensitives, these weren't really examples of the Jedi Order offering their hand to help people in desperate situation. No, it was an example of the Jedi - as seen by society at large, instead "of a Jedi" - choosing to help few particular individuals because they were also members of the same Force sensitive minority as they themselves. It's sad, but the Jedi can't save everyone, and when they save people from lower reaches of society, the reason tends to be this: Because they are special - they could be Jedi themselves.

    There are some things that Luke could do as a Grand Master to build bridges. For example, he could offer the services of Jedi healers free to poor people. Ok, there are few of the Jedi healers and they have to spent large part of their time healing their own, but it would be a start. Also, local Jedi Watchmen (like Nelani Dinn was) on planets, by solving local problems, probably are doing good PR for the Jedi Order.
  7. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
  8. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    If Luke were on Earth he and his Jedi would be constantly butting heads with the US and any other country that supports autocracies and dictatorships in the world.

    I'd think the Jedi would be on top of the whole environmental crisis. It's a shame that those sorts of things are never explored with the Jedi in the EU. These guys are serving the very life energy of the universe and they only seem to be concerned with the politics of the day and don't seem at all bothered that Duro is an environmental disaster zone. Let alone numerous other previously inhabitable worlds now rendered uninhabitable by industry...

    I don't think in-universe Jedi as just average joes doing a particular job would work all that well. I can't imagine a Jedi wallpaper hanger that randomly has to go off and save a planet who could still have a viable business at the end of the day. It's just not even plausible. It wouldn't work. Let alone putting in for vacation to go off and save a planet. "Oh, you want what now? Sorry, Luke... Wedge already has those days off."

    What made the Jedi Order so awfully isolated from the galactic populace was 1000 years of taking little babies from their families and raising them in the Jedi Temple to only know the Jedi Order as family and not get any real outside experience until they are taken as a Padawan and put in situations that are a far cry from "everyday." They don't have to have regular jobs to relate to non-Jedi people. They just have to make themselves available to them and, you know, befriend people outside of their Temples. That's the only problem I see with Ossus becoming a main focal point of Luke's Jedi Order.... it's increasingly easy to cloister themselves on a Jedi planet and forget about the rest of the galaxy. I don't want my Jedi to be monks, I want them to be ascetics who are present. In the world, but not of the world. Becoming monk and holing up in the Jedi monastery planet isn't being in the world...
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Except, in all 3 cases, what was Luke fighting for? Truth and justice are ideals that are linked to the status quo, which does not always mean the existing state of affairs, consider this Wiki entry in regard to the phrase:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo:

    "In 19th-century diplomatic Latin, the original sentence was in statu quo res erant ante bellum "in the state in which things were before the war". This gave rise to the shorter form status quo ante bellum "the state in which (it was) before the war", indicating the withdrawal of enemy troops and restoration of power to prewar leadership, as well as other variations, such as status quo itself.

    Arguing to preserve the status quo is usually done in the context of opposing a large, often radical change. The term frequently refers to the status of a large issue, such as the current culture or social climate of an entire society or nation. Status quo can also refer to the social status in the workplace or peer group school."

    It could be argued that the Empire, the Vong and Jacen all overthrew the existing status quo by war and in response to that, Luke, the Jedi and NR/GA/others fought back to restore the galaxy to the prior state. In every instance the Rebels have not been anarchists who wish to tear down the government and end at that point.

    The leaders of the Rebellion understood that the Republic had failed to prevent the Empire, so they tapped the ideals and aspirations that form people's respect for the status quo: That the rule of law is upheld, that people are free to act as they please unless their activity is illegal, that a person must be tried and be considered innocent until proven guilty. All those ideals are also part of the status quo, which is more than either politics or law, for the status quo is the popularly accepted and recognisably legitimate system for a society. The Empire took over law, the government, the military but it never acquired true legitmacy in the way the Republic had.

    Luke and the Jedi would also be wise to limit their activities to prevent dependency upon them. Superman could change the entire world for the better if he chose, but the cost would be the loss of human free agency. If people become used to relying upon others to always help them, in every instance, their independence withers. At the same time the Jedi's abilities and powers are finite, so they need to be properly focused where they will achieve the best goods and least harm, in any form.

  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    JK_Dart, I think actually that the EU has a different view of that. Luke Skywalker's Jedi Knights TRIED to be OF the people in the New Jedi Order. They were drawn from normal people, didn't wear robes, and didn't have a Jedi Council. The problem was that they STILL fought the hard fights and battles against the Yuuzhan Vong. Depressingly, from Cade Skywalker's reaction, I believe the simple fact is that the Jedi Knights will NEVER be trusted as a whole because they're motivated altruists that are willing to enforce peace.

    Well, yes, clearly the Jedi have always drawn from a bunch of Upper Cla....What now?! :oops:

    Seriously, the Jedi have been repeatedly shown to have ALWAYS drawn from every part of the galaxy. One of the Jedi Council had parents who were slavers and Jedi Quest SHOWED the Jedi working to stop Slavery in the galaxy where they could. Obi Wan Kenobi wasn't "disconnected from the people either." Neither were ANY of the other Jedi either.

    The Jedi were purged because the PEOPLE IN POWER HATED THEM.

    Actually, Ossus is FAR FAR better a choice than Coruscant. Coruscant is a filthy, steaming, cesspool of a world and a morass of politics. Jedi should remain isolated from the Republic and instead away from its corruption.

    Instead, they should stay in tune with nature and the Force. Yavin IV, Endor, etc.

    As for the Status-Quo/Anti-Status Quo issue. Luke Skywalker is a figure that would argue its his duty to struggle for a better world whether or not its desired by the populous or not. Superman, unlike Luke Skywalker, has the ability to enforce an absolute peace on the world by enslaving pretty much everyone through his powers.

    Luke is a much more mortal figure.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Rogue77, I'm standing in stunned silence.

    Yes, she would. Because she's a Jedi. That's what they do. They save people.

    The Prequel Jedi actually don't have any reason to help Force Sensetives because after 6 months, they're unsuitable. Instead, they help people BECAUSE ITS WHAT THEY DO. Seriously, just because the Jedi saved some people who ARE FORCE SENSITIVE doesn't mean that almost all of the people they save aren't.

    And that's an ignorant Strawman way of the Galactic Populous to view the Jedi that ignores that the Jedi are a minority that exists to serve the Majority of the Galaxy and believes that the Minority exists to use their powers FOR the majority.

    It's like accusing the X-men of being only Pro-Mutant,

    Seriously, do you know ANYTHING about the Jedi Order? Cause the above paragraphs suggest you're talking about some bizarre Mirror Universe version of the Jedi Order that spits in the face of everything the Jedi stand for.

    Rogue, what the Kriff do you think the Jedi DO anyway? Seriously, do you think the Order only exists to perpetuate itself? It goes around doing Good days. That's its JOB. It's the freaking Justice League.

    It's like saying "Superman would have better publicity if he saved poor people."

    Which is nonsensical because he does....A LOT.
  12. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    How many other teenage dancers from sleazy taverns Daeshara'cor did save? We don't know any. As far as I remember, it was said that she saved them because she noticed they were Force sensitives. It's not like the Jedi would go around saving every person who is in trouble. They don't try to heal the whole society, just interfering by trying to take out some selected ills here and there. That was the case in OJO and that is also the case in Luke's time. So Daeshara'cor can save and train two Force sensitive dancing girls and Jacen can save and bring to the temple to be trained one girl from Coruscant's slums. But the Jedi don't try to save all the dancing girls, not close the taverns where they perform, nor do they try to heal Coruscant's ills and save all the slum dwellers from poverty. That's true of OJO and that's true of Luke's Order. They are not movements attempting to bring forth social change, they are groups who are on the government's payroll and use their special abilities to serve the plans of those, who lead the government. The closer the Jedi get to the government, the farther they are from that "saving people because they are good" thing.

    I have to say that I don't remember the last time when a Jedi in DR's books saved a non- Force sensitive in a similar situation like we have with the Rar sisters and Seha Dorvald. Sure, the Jedi save non -Force sensitives as part of their missions - but actively trying to save non-Force sensitive people like them from their surroundings when the Jedi are not told to do so or lead to do so by others (like in Killik war by UnuThul)? Even the little girl Ben saved on Ziost in Exile was a Force sensitive according to my recollection. That's not the reason Ben saved her, of course.

    In LotF the Jedi are GA's special forces until Jacen takes over and after that a group of loyalists of the former GA leadership attempting to do a counter-revolution. There's no evidence of any independent spirit among the Jedi before Cal Omas falls. Which goes against how Luke saw the Jedi's role in TSW, by the way. They go where GA points and do what it wants them to do. They don't go around doing what they think are good deeds, they go around doing deeds that the government thinks need to be done. Their wings have been clipped. They are not superheros, they are more like SEALs. They have been greatly diminished by having been forced to the mould of OJO.

    Of course the Jedi Order exists to perpetuate itself (which organization wouldn't?) - and the main galactic government it's allied to. Government, which they tend to see as a bringer of stability and upholder of the virtues of civilization, a bright island of peace in a dark galaxy. Mace thought so and Luke seems to think so. So they end up protecting status quo, especially after devastating wars. This makes them very conservative.

    Not really. Whether we have Superman or to ordinary people - superman - Luke, the things they got their good publicity is committing acts of heroism
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yes, because they're irrelevant to the plot.

    Actually, they are currently attempting to overthrow the government and assassinate it's leader. Likewise, the Dark Nest Crisis was resolved by the Jedi effectively giving the Finger to both the Chiss Government/The Republic and the Killiks.

    The NJO war against the Vong was conducted more or less against the Republic's support as well. No offense, but given all this evidence, can you really argue the Jedi give a darn about what the Republic government thinks of them?

    Hell, Rogue77, they fought a war for the YUUZHAN VONG in Legacy.

    Actually, I thought it was pretty clear she wasn't Force Sensitive. If you want to go past the NJO as well, the Young Jedi Knight books also had the Jedi Knights actively work to help Anja Gallandro (explicitly stated to be not-Force Sensitive) overcome her spice addiction.

    Likewise, in the Aniston Mission, Barriss Offee healed those two Psychopaths of their mental infirmity.

    Cal Omas' entire plot arc in Dark Nest is effectively realizing he has no control over the Jedi and they don't care to give up all their nifty government stuff.
  14. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Counter-revolution. Luke is just trying to get things to the point where they were before Cal Omas got thrown out of the office. He's made to be the loyal retainer who tries to turn back the clock, because he thinks the new governments is illegal. Although he then goes on and declares his support for Niathal, which is kind of strange. They are like two White generals in Russia around 1918-1921, with one of them(Luke) ready to take a lesser role.

    Of course they do. That was one of the reasons why the Jedi who acted against the YV were rogues a significant part of the war, acting without Luke's permission, as Luke tried to appease NR leadership and other Jedi haters. When a more reasonable leader came to power, the Jedi worked again closely with NR-turned-GA.

    No, they fought a war against the Fel Empire who threatened the territorial integrity of GA by using the sabotaging of Vongforming as an excuse to attack it. The war wasn't a choice made by the Jedi, it was forced upon them and GA leadership.

    The girl was said to be a likely Force sensitive, I'm pretty sure of that. What comes to this Gallandro figure, it seems that she was the daughter of an old acquintance of Han's, and they needed her help against a villain.

    Yes, and Luke has his speech which confirms that. And all that is thrown out of the window in LotF, where the Jedi are the obedient servants of the GA government and do what Master Omas (and the military) tell them to do. There's no alliance between Jedi and GA, the Jedi are clearly just another part of the GA military machine. No different from GAG really.
  15. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure that's NOT how the term "status quo" is used in the common vernacular. Particular when the status quo is corrupt. Overthrow the corrupt status quo and replace it with a new status quo. Hence the Rebellion against the Empire. The Empire was the legitimate government of its day because it wasn't the the Empire came from out of nowhere to replace the Galactic Repubilc,
  16. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Dawud786

    They don't have to have regular jobs to relate to non-Jedi people. They just have to make themselves available to them and, you know, befriend people outside of their Temples. That's the only problem I see with Ossus becoming a main focal point of Luke's Jedi Order.... it's increasingly easy to cloister themselves on a Jedi planet and forget about the rest of the galaxy.

    I still would like to see Jedi healers, Jedi teachers, Jedi builders, etc., and I think if there weren't constant galaxy-wide wars, this wouldn't be as much of a problem for Jedi to have more "normal" careers in addition to their roles as Jedi Knights, as they wouldn't be called to service as defenders of the galaxy constantly.

    But I think Luke had the right idea in VotF: Have the Jedi get out into the galaxy and serve as mediators and diplomats and ambassadors. After core training, have young Jedi accompany a Master to receive on-the-job-training on missions throughout the galaxy, living and working among "normal" people.

    Unfortunately, that's not really possible either when the Jedi are constantly needed to fight those galactic wars I mentioned above, or when they're being hunted, as Luke's Jedi are again in LotF, as Jacen sent Tahiri to locate their new base of operations.

    I do think that Luke does try to get his Jedi to help the "common folk". The Jedi helped the refugees during the YV war, and Luke and other Jedi were helping to protect innocent Fondorians. The question is: Do these people KNOW that it's the Jedi who are helping them?

    Becoming monk and holing up in the Jedi monastery planet isn't being in the world...

    I agree. I think a Jedi Academy or Temple has merit for teaching the basics and as a place for the Jedi to meet and make decisions, but I don't think they should spend all that much time there.


    Charlemagne19


    Rouge77

    It's not like the Jedi would go around saving every person who is in trouble. .

    Luke's Order has what? About 200 adult Jedi at the most? How many trillions of people are there in the galaxy? How can they possibly save every person who is in trouble? I'm sure they would love to be able to save every person if they could, but that's an impossible task. They have to try to put their efforts where they can save the most. And unfortunately, due to all of those constant conflicts, most of their energy is spent fighting wars and protecting as many innocents as they can.

  17. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    In those examples, Luke made the "right moral choices" without become a sanctimonious holier-than-thou. He remained "just Luke", not transforming into some Eternal God Emperor like Paul Atreides. He didn't always succeed, but unlike Anakin who knew when something was wrong but would do it anyway, Luke remained true to his core values. Even if it meant chosing to fall down a chasm or toss away his weapon. These didn't come off as cheesy stunts; they were brave, difficult choices.
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    To be fair, Frank Herbert's Paul Atreides' whole character arc was the Emperor trying to inform the people (Life of Brian style) that Messiah leaders/God Emperors are a horrible horrible horrible idea.
  19. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Oh I agree. It was Paul's son Leto(?), who actually turned into a giant, immortal slug and ruled the galaxy for thousands of years; sure took his sweet time letting people know that Immortal Giant Slug Emperors are a Bad Idea.(Leto II, not Frank Herbert).
  20. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Dingo

    I don't see Luke as being "closer" to the Dark Side than any other Jedi purely because of his nature. But more because Luke being Luke he deliberately places himself at the coal-face of the fight instead of letting others go there, and that is why he ends up having to face the choice of Light versus Dark so often.

    Ah! I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I suppose this is possible. Except in the YV war, Luke usually WAS at the forefront, always involved in the thick of the action, always present where there was a problem to be resolved. He certainly has had to face a lot of Sith and dark Jedi in his lifetime too, unfortunately.

    Looking at the events as they sit in universe I can't see what Luke is doing that is truly, greatly wrong given what he has faced over the period of time since the end of the Bantam era.

    Well, in the YV war, Luke WASN'T his usual active self. He sat passively by after the events of The Dark Nest duology, dithering about what to do, while the YV took over more and more systems and while the rift grew in the Jedi Order. Luke didn't really do much of anything until he took out Shimrra in TUF.

    Then despite the speech Luke gave at the end of TUF, in which he didn't seem to "buy into" much that Vergere was peddling, Luke AND the rest of the Jedi were doing some very dark things in DN. Not only were they using anger to fuel the Force, but Luke even allowed some torture by of all people, the healer, Cilghal. :( Again, the Jedi Order was fracturing, as you said. And, as you said, some of the Jedi themselves caused major problems during the Killik war.

    And when looking at Luke's actions with Lumiya, it's not like he hadn't tried previously. He has tried in books prior to Sacrifice to take her in, and been unsuccessful.

    I know that, and it doesn't really bother me that Luke killed Lumiya. As I keep saying, it's not that he killed her, it's HOW he killed her. He had the wrong mindset. He didn't kill Lumiya because she was a danger to the galaxy and its inhabitants. He killed her because he thought she had killed Mara. He didn't kill her as a Jedi Grandmaster; he killed her as a vengeful husband. And he didn't kill her as part of a fair fight. He cut off her head AFTER he had SAVED Lumiya from falling down a cliff that would have killed her, and when she had no longer had a weapon to defend herself. That's why I don't like Luke's killing of Lumiya.

    In the run-up to Sacrifice, Luke has been pulled in too many directions at once with little true help. Those who were supposed to be the ones coming of age and maybe beginning to take up some of the reigns of leadership were not. At a time when he might be able to step back and try and connect with his son, he has to take complete control of the Order. He has to play politics with governments that want the Jedi to help clean things up on their terms and hate their 'interference' when it doesn't suit their agendas.

    I agree that Luke's job has not been an easy one. He HAS been pulled in too many different directions. But as they say, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. I'd add that heroes make the right choices even when they're difficult ones, even when life isn't easy. But I'm not sure that Luke DID make "mostly the right decisions". I'm not sure he hasn't lost his "moral compass". :(

  21. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4

    Why does HE get so much hell over it when Han tries to murder his cousin for FAR FAR less.

    Dunno good question, but I suppose Luke has been portrayed as the moral hero while Han is more anti hero I guess.

    okay just an idea for a topic, how would the galaxy changed if Luke decided to either join his father in ESB or Palps in ROTJ ?

  22. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    I-poodoo

    2) What can they do with Luke next?

    Luke Skywalker not only needs authors who understand the character and can write him, but also authors who truly LIKE the character, I think. It almost seems that some authors include Luke because they have to, because he's the head honcho of the Jedi Order, and not because they truly WANT to write about him. Luke does need a character arc that will allow him to grow and develop as a person. Luke's been sliding backwards for a long time now. I feel he has regressed a great deal since VotF.

    I too would like to see more of the Hero's Journey and a focus on character. Too often, Luke's character (and others as well!) has suffered and been diminished to fit the plot or so more books could be added to a series. For example, time and again Luke has been made to look foolish by not seeing what was right in front of him, like Jacen's darkness or the fact that Jacen killed his wife for far too long. Luke wasn't able to kill Lomi Plo or Lumiya or Jacen in their first fights as he should have been able to do, because then the story would be over. And I think it's possible that Luke's vengeance killing of Lumiya may have been a plot device to ensure that Jaina and not Luke defeats Jacen in Invincible. So much for Mara's almost last words, "Luke will crush you!" :(

    I'm starting to feel that this whole relay race approach to writing these big series is severely flawed and they should just get someone like Luceno to write a nine book series by himself.

    Even better, I don't think they should have any more nine books series! I'm all for single book stories, duologies, or trilogies at most.

    I can understand why DR would think this but they need to look deeper and realize there is a progression on a few things with the Jedi order from old to new. Luke's order represented a renaissance of the Jedi in its purest form not a resurrection of the dogmatic and stilted views of the Order in its waning days.

    That's why I think Obi-wan stressed that Luke wasn't the last of the Old Jedi, but rather, the first of the new, and why I think Yoda decided not to start training the Skywalker twins from infancy as those in the old Order were. It was time for a change.

    NelanisGhost

    Marriage is a contract that expires upon death. Luke should do what makes him happy. I think she'd (Mara ) like Luke to move on and be content. That is true, mature love.

    That makes perfect sense.

    It's not Anakin's story. It's the Skywalker's story. Luke is not more of a Skywalker than Padme, Leia, Anakin, Mara, Ben, or Shmi. Each family member is 100% fully vested.

    That's putting it in perspective. While I don't think they're all equally important to the story itself, they all have their roles to play, and without one of them, the whole story would be diminished.

  23. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Well, let me point out something. The Luke Skywalker in A New Hope is just a guy. Luke is a nice guy but he's not a hero until the very end of it. I think that both of us would probably be willing to give a lift to the nearest city for a guy whose trying to save the world, if nothing else. That was about as far as Luke Skywalker was willing to go for Obi Wan Kenobi and that was better than some people. It took the slaughter of his adopted parents in order to allow him to go join the Rebellion like he'd always wanted.

    an everyman hero like Spider-man, and it's because he was OBEYING his Uncle and Aunt's orders but INTENDED to join up with Biggs and the Rebellion when he got off the farm(that's more than I would have done), he's still just a young boy. he was at a impasse with his choices. it's like someone comes up to me and asks me to save the world, first I would say yes in a heartbeat but to be realistic I would be conflicted with my duties in RL and doubting myself, plus the fact that I might die or fail at saving the world. how can I a insignificant farmboy make the world better ?

    The Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back is a cocky little snot. Darth Vader announces the fact he intends to turn him to the Dark Side. Yoda repeatedly states that Luke is not ready to be a Jedi and thinking of it for the excitement/glory that come with being a hero rather than helping people. We see his failure in the Cave Illustrate that he's not nearly as good as he thinks he is. Then he goes off, disobeying his master for altruistic reasons but goes IMMEDIATELY after Vader when he senses him.

    here I disagree with you, Luke demonstrate impatience, anger, and doubt but I never got the sense he's cocky except when he stated I'm not afraid aside of that we don't see it later. he went to face Vader to SAVED his friends...how is that being cocky ? he knew he would be taking his life with him if wanted to go saved his friends. I fail to see how Luke getting a heroic rush or excitement for a potential self sacrifice encounter with Vader when HE KNOWS HE ISN'T READY. and he wasn't going after Vader he was going to SAVED his friends.

    He hates Vader and that trumps his loyalty to Leia and Han. Then, he commits suicide because he cannot reconcile his father with the man he knew.

    :oops: way to cheapen a memorable scene ;) first he partially understands Vader is his father...he said so later and he wouldn't have shouted a prolonged "NOOOO"!!! if he knew Vader was faking. He decides not to join his father's offer and decides to die rather than join EVIL. wasn't much choice in the scene.

    In Empire Strikes Back. He's taken to wearing black, force strangling Gamorreans, and plotting Jabba the Hutt's assassination. He wants to help Darth Vader turn back to the Light Side of the Force but he also has come to crystalize that hatred. If Luke had murdered his own father out of anger, in the end, Palpatine would have been able to turn him. Probably for noble and selfless reasons but Luke would have joined the cause of evil.

    oh yes cause Black is evil....tell that to some PT jedi, Zorro, Batman, and X-men. the point of the clothes was for Luke to be taken seriously as he had greatly matured.

    "I remember George telling me that in samurai movies costumes say a lot about the characters; the way the costume is folded, the way it's tucked in is very important. So I thought, Luke has become a Jedi; he is more distant, more serious. I thought, What do gunslingers wear when they mean business? They wear black."
    - Nilo Rodis-Jamero
    Costume Designer

    as for the force grip, we don't witness the deaths of the gammeroans and could be a praticioners use of a force KO that Qui Gon displayed.


    He's not the MORAL voice of ANH, save in comparison to Han. That's Obi Wan Kenobi.

    and what about the others like Leia or Chewie, I think they all displayed moral voices.


    YODA is the moral voice of ESB.

    so is Obi wan, remember when Yoda saw Anakin in Luke he openly deny to te
  24. NewStaryknight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2007
    star 4
    It seems to me that the main issues with Luke are that he was too inactive during the Vong War, he was too inactive during the DN Crises, and he killed Lumiya out of vengence. My simple answers to these issues are that he was inactive during the Vong War because he, nor anyone for that matter, had ever got up against an enemy that seemed to be completly outside the force and therefore didn't have a good grasp on things and found it difficult to find a solution to the problem. He was inactive during the DN Crises because he was busy worrying over what the Jedi were becoming with all there experimentations with the potentium and the darkside. Finally, his killing of Lumiya didn't seem that out of character to me. What he did was no more worse then what Obi-Wan did to Maul IMO. And yes, one could say that Luke is to old and to "experienced" with the force to fall prey to moments of rage, but I say thats bolox. It doesn't matter how old you get or how much life experience you get, everybody has moments of weakness when they give in to their emotions, especially when they suffer a loss thats bigger than anything they've ever experienced in 40 years.

    Now I understand that some of you here have said that Luke's "mis-characterizations" can be remedied by a strong character arc. I do agree that its a good idea, but I've got two things to say in regards to it. One, I don't really know what that character arc would revolve around, and two Luke isn't the only character that needs an arc IMO.
  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Dawud,

    I'm pretty sure that's NOT how the term "status quo" is used in the common vernacular. Particular when the status quo is corrupt. Overthrow the corrupt status quo and replace it with a new status quo. Hence the Rebellion against the Empire. The Empire was the legitimate government of its day because it wasn't the the Empire came from out of nowhere to replace the Galactic Repubilc, the Republic was re-organized into the Galactic Empire maintaining a great deal of the facets of the Galactic Republic. So the Republic's Senate became the Imperial Senate.

    * Except not everyone was cheering and the Rebellion effectively began in ROTS.

    By the cheering of the Senators in the Senate hall when Palpatine declared the New Order, I'd say the Galactic Empire was legitimate at that point. In fact, Palpatine manages to convince most of the senators of his position by way of saying he's preserving a status quo(in the sense that you are using it, or claiming to use it) of peace prior to the Clone Wars through the reorganization into the Empire. Like it or not, the Empire was legit from its inception. Legally it was legitimate when the Senate agreed to re-organize the Republic into the Empire.

    * Legality and popular acceptance are rarely the same thing though and only those things that are accepted by the populace remain in place, the Poll Tax was legal but was abandoned due to the huge amount of protests it ignited. One of the points Macchiavelli makes is that a government that has to deal with a rebellion isn't a good one, because if it was any good the people wouldn't be revolting.

    (And no, you're not allowed to do the Asterix quip: "And revolting is the word!" ;) )

    Luke Skywalker and the Rebel Alliance fought to re-establish a fabled status quo of a Galactic Republic that already hadn't existed for 2,000 years. They sought to overthrow a status quo that began in 1,000 BBY and culminated in the establishment of the Galactic Empire. They consciously chose to replace one status quo with another.

    * Hmm, hold on, are you claiming the 1000 year Republic was corrupt from the starting point? Because I don't think that's the case, I don't see the transition from Republic to Empire as being due to the Republic, I'd place the blame for that one on the Sith.

    JB