Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    No, please do.
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    You ignored my earlier post, but you are agreeing to disagree with Lucas.

    "The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film." - Lucas in The Annotated Screenplays

    "The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'" -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002


    People here apparently have a really hard time distinguishing between symbolism and narrative.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 17, 2013
  3. aleja2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 2
    Go ahead, o so erudite and apparently only second to Lucas Stover when it comes to understanding matters of which us poor benighted idiots cannot have no ken of -
    enlighten me.

    Or perhaps, maybe, since the rest of us just can't keep up with you, it is your reading that is flawed. Just sayin'.

    (Must remind self to return diploma to same film school from which Lucas graduated, because apparently I failed my semiotics class. On the other hand, nah, I really didn't.)
  4. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I dunno, if I call Palpatine symbolic for Satan and someone disagrees with me and says he's not because Christianity doesn't exist in Star Wars, and I say it's symbolism, are you going to "fix" my quote and say people are taking what's depicted in the films with the implication being that Palpatine isn't called Satan in the film therefore he's not symbolic of him in any way?

    I mean it's not DEPICTED IN THE FILMS so it must not be there. It's not in the narrative. I must have just made it up.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 17, 2013
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Guys, I think you both had it right when you wanted to take a step back for a bit. Do it for a day or two and if you want to resume, it might be a good idea.
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.
  6. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    If Starkiller's actions diminish Luke -- how much of a hero can you BE without hurting our heroes? How much do we keep them down to preserve the Big Three?[/quote]


    The problem is Starkiller is by design used to fulfill Luke's role. His whole creation was based on Hayden making a dark Luke, that's tied to his character. Instead of creating a unique villain for Starkiller to face they have him fight the top two sith, Vader and Sidious...that's Luke's destiny. Naturally that bothers me.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Sep 17, 2013
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  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'm beginning to align more with your perspective of the Force, re: the EU treatment of it.
  8. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    The novel explained he had regained most of his memories, but he doesn't fully regain them until over halfway through the novel, when he touches his old mask.
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  9. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    i did love the games, just think they should stay as games. especially op force user that are made that way just so a video game is cool. anyway i think this is a luke thread. I do think luke is diminished by starkiller, but legacy diminishes Luke even more.
  10. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

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    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Guys, I'd like to gently remind you that this is a Luke Skywalker thread. Posts should connect to Luke in some way. Thanks!
    kataja likes this.
  11. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    i did mention luke on my last post
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    What do folks think of what Luke said at the conclusion of The Unifying Force, vis-a-vis Crucible?
    Not just about the Force, but about how he was reaffirming that he set down the mantle of guardianship but would remain a guide and mentor, compared to his "retirement"?
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 17, 2013
  13. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

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    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Your post was fine, JM!
  14. aleja2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 2
    Oy, we are so talking about different things with apparently vastly different definitions, it's not funny. And I'm sorry for my sarcastic response. Even the "fixing" was meant to be, well, on the funny side. Obviously it wasn't.

    I get your Palpatine example. Only no such symbolism for the Force exists in the films that I can see. Not once does anyone - Sidious, Vader, Obi Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, etc - refer to the dark side and light side as existing in obligate symbiosis (that I can recall. I don't know the PT as well as the OT). Yes, Anakin is meant to bring "balance," and there is a lot of hindsight explanation as to what that means including from Lucas, but in the films it's made perfectly clear that dark side = evil. Or maybe the wholesale slaughter of Sand People and Jedi younglings - not to mention strangling your wife - is supposed to be a necessary "cleansing"?!? [face_hypnotized] Also, it's pretty obvious, especially judging by the symbolism of their outfits, that Maul, Sidious and Vader are Really Bad Guys, and not just Necessary Evil So the World Won't Implode Dudes. That's further carried out when Anakin appears as a ghost at the end of RotJ - he's in his Jedi robes, not in his Vader costume, thus symbolizing that he's returned to the light. If the Force is "one," if the dark side is as necessary and as vital as the light side, then why put Anakin in his Jedi robes? Why not appear as Vader?

    I like moral relativism as much as the next guy and its use certainly makes certain novels, like Traitor, deeper. But the films espouse a pretty straightforward and defined moral system. That's not taking things too literally - that's being true to the world of the films and staying in universe.

    As for Lucas, he constantly contradicts himself in hindsight, and has contradicted what the 'balance of the Force' and 'Chosen One' mean more often than not (the latest being the Mortis arc in The Clone Wars). Part and parcel of telling an ongoing story - the creator reserves the right to change the story as new ideas inevitably pop up as additional chapters are written.
    Last edited by aleja2, Sep 17, 2013
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Charlemagne19:
    They pretty much subjugated the Kesh! That's not really living in "peace". And we saw how peaceful the Lost Sith were with Luke, the Jedi, and the galaxy.... They even took over the government, and Luke and his Jedi had to deal with the mess. Krayt and the One Sith are certainly not exactly "peaceloving people" either.

    And I STILL can't believe that Luke would be content with retiring when all of those thousands of Sith, Krayt and Abeloth are still out there!







    Nobody145:
    Great point!

    I do too! If you're going to introduce a villain, be prepared to come up with an end point for that villain, otherwise, it's extremely unsatisfying. Luke and his Jedi should have been allowed to destroy Abeloth in Apocalypse. That still would have left two groups of thousands of Sith out there. Keeping Abeloth around was unnecessary and very disappointing. It was like Luke accomplished nothing at all, and all he got for his efforts was a permanent injury. :mad:

    No, it really doesn't! This is the worst possible time for Luke especially, to retire! The galaxy is crawling with Sith!!!!!! It's just SO illogical that it's mind-boggling!

    I really, really would have liked Mara and Luke to also have a daughter!






    Jedi Ben: quoting Denning: Luke saw all that and more, saw that conflict was as necessary to progress as harmony, that suffering was as essential to wisdom as was joy. Perhaps there was no pure good, no absolute evil. There was only life, only change and growth, suffering and joy ... death and rebirth. There was only the Force.


    I agree with you, JB! I don't "Buy" the whole idea that there's no pure good or absolute evil. Can you think of one positive trait of Sidious????

    And why would God need the devil? He doesn't!






    kataja:
    I completely agree with all of the above, K! Why was Luke supposed to be so important if there was someone else who could defeat Vader (Starkiller), and if there were other Jedi who could have restored the Jedi Order. I too much prefer the idea that Luke was the ONLY Jedi left after Yoda' s death, and that only Luke could restore the Order and face Vader.

    As you also said, if there were other Jedi around, why didn't they help Luke when he struggled alone to start the Jedi Academy and train Jedi, with no training manual, colleagues, or mentors to help him.? That's one of the many things I hate about the Legacy comics. Two PT Jedi are still alive and take over Luke's Order after Luke is dead... Where were they when he needed their help???? I consider it pure gall that they take over Luke's Order after he's gone when they didn't lift a finger to help him when he was alive and struggling to build the Jedi Order from scratch!



    More another time....
    kataja likes this.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    They pretty much subjugated the Kesh! That's not really living in "peace". And we saw how peaceful the Lost Sith were with Luke, the Jedi, and the galaxy.... They even took over the government, and Luke and his Jedi had to deal with the mess. Krayt and the One Sith are certainly not exactly "peaceloving people" either.

    And I STILL can't believe that Luke would be content with retiring when all of those thousands of Sith, Krayt and Abeloth are still out there!

    Luke should redeem the Sith as a species and culture is what I'm saying. Not try to destroy them out of hand.

    BRIGHT SITH!
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    @Charlemagne19

    It was my hope that the conclusion of FOTJ would see the Lost Tribe be redeemed to some extent and bolster the ranks of the Jedi Order. Alas, Luke doesn't seem to be all that interested in saving people now.
  18. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    The Light Side is Good. The Dark Side is Evil. So why, exactly, do we assume that 'balance' in the Force is Good, when surly half of it clearly isn't?

    I'd argue that this is a logical flaw with the prequels, except that the movies, as well as the only novelization I bothered reading (RotS) make it clear that the imbalance is being caused by the Sith. Two Dark Side Sith (give or take) are outweighing thousands of Light Side Jedi on the metaphorical scale? That's simply not possible, IMO. The only explanation is that this 'balance' isn't actually between Light and Dark Sides of the Force.

    Jedi flow *with* the Force (Ideally). They abide by the Force's Will. Sith, on the other hand, control the force. The Force abides by their Will.

    Maybe the 'balance' isn't between Light and Dark, but about how much of the Force's Will is being followed. IIRC, the Jedi were having a lot of trouble understanding the Will of the Force during the prequels because the Sith were clouding it.

    Do the Light and Dark Sides of the Force have independent and conflicting Wills? Personally, I don't like that idea. I prefer to think of the Force as only having one Will, regardless of which side you're on... Which is why I didn't like Troy Denning's anthropomorphizing of the different aspects to the Force. What's more, the idea that the 'balance' that should be strived for is the balance between Light and Dark Sides of the Force is also something I don't like much, mostly because I don't think it makes much sense if you actually analyze it deeply. That said, one might still be able to argue that the balance at play is the balance between how much a Force user controls the Force vs how much they abide by the will of what ever side they happen to use.

    But what do I know? I haven't been into this stuff in a good while, so I'm probably hopelessly out of date (skipped most of LotF, up to date on FotJ and Crucible).
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  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I think it's useful not to think of the Force in the abstract, but as something which is immanent and which reality reflects and vice-versa. Darth Sidious is Emperor of the galaxy, but even before that, he's instigating a massive galactic war, and the Sith have been consolidating influence and putting the pieces in place for this war for decades or even centuries before that. These are two beings that are influencing the entire galaxy for themselves. That's the imbalance.
  20. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Imbalanced against what? War vs Peace? The warmongering Sith vs the peace minded Jedi? The problem with that is we know that 'balance' was supposed to have been returned to the Force with the death of Palpatine, but we know that the war didn't end with his death. On the contrary, one might argue it got that much more heated, with the Rebellion growing into a legitimate governing and military force.

    What happened the moment Palpatine died that might be explained as returning 'balance' to the Force? With Anakin turning back to the Light, Palpatine was the last of the Sith, and so his death ended the Sith influence on the Force. The Sith caused the imbalance, and the death of the Sith resolved it. I think that's explained by their direct influence on the energy field (The Force) itself, not by the tangential influence of galactic strife...which didn't end with Palpatine's death in any case.

    On a more on-topic note, is there any newer word on the upcoming Luke novel by Kevin Kearne? I've really enjoyed his Iron Druid books, but I'm worried that the Disney purchase might have killed some of the future book plans.
  21. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    The central distinguishing characteristics between light and dark is selflessness vs selfishness. Sidious as Galactic Emperor was selfishly not just influencing, but dominating, the entire galaxy. His death broke his hold on the galaxy forever, even if the war continued it did so without the influence of a single, selfish, and powerful being. Everything throughout the film saga, up until and except for Sidious' death, was what Sidious had foreseen and planned for, which is why he is so overconfident. I believe it was Filoni who pointed out that Sidious is throughout the saga and TV show looking into the Force at possible futures, picking the one that he likes, and influencing people and events to lead to that end. He is one person shaping the future. He even tries this with the prophecy of the Chosen One by attempting to prevent the prophecy by making the Chosen One his apprentice.
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    As a general rule, I think it's largely an immaterial distinction. The Will of the Force is nebulous and while Qui Gon Jinn thinks he's serving it (and probably is), Cronal thinks he's serving the Force every bit as much and he's an omnicidal maniac. The same for Darth Bane who believed that he was, essentially, a Dark Side messiah. Ultimately, the Force is made up of a trillion trillion beings so their gestalt's opinion is going to be somewhat....mixed.

    In short, what I'm saying is the Jedi claim to serve the Will of the Force but no one can really know that. Even those who feel its power. Furthermore, as we see with the Sith, their beliefs are as varied as the Jedi. In the end, a Jedi must allow himself to trust the Force and follow its guidelines but he's also forced to make his own moral decisions.

    Thinking on this as well as George Lucas' opinion destiny, free will, and so on--I am going to have re-evaluate my opinion of the Prequel's mythology. He's actually done a pretty good job of establishing a multi-layered mythology. At the heart of the Star Wars' religion (for lack of a better term) is that the supernatural, destiny, and the Divine are real but all of them relate to free will and mundane good/evil.

    This actually relates to Luke Skywalker (and God knows we need to bring this topic back to it) because Luke is like Superman. Not in a small way but a HUGE way. Basically, the fundamental goodness of both are due to their mundane natures leading to good. Just as Darth Vader's corruption isn't mythic - he's emotionally unbalanced and a spouse abuser - so is Luke's mundane good nature.

    Luke starts the road to goodness not to serve the Will of the Force but because he is trying to do good and, ironically, this results in him serving the Will of the Force.

    Ultimately, I think part of the appeal of the Force should remain its mystery. The Force is, very much so, undefined because it's a metaphor for the spiritual. Not anything spiritual in particular but God, the Universe, and everything (42!). You shouldn't define it too much because it's meant to be mysterious because it's fundamentally personal what it means to you.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 17, 2013
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  23. newdawn12 Force Ghost

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    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    BTW, unrelated to Luke, I'll bet you 200 credits that the origins movies will be:

    Han
    Boba Fett
    Leia

    Sadly, while I'd love to see Ryan Gosling as Luke Skywalker in a recast--there's no way to do a Luke origin story since we have that already.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 17, 2013
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    One of the characters Luke meets is a Nightsister in the process of earning her redemption though- Gethzerion's sister.

    She "turned from the Dark Side" before Luke ever met her- and he tells her that "In time, you must give up your guilt".