Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.
By all means deny yourself an entire swath of entertainment and unique stories JM.
There was at least one fan version of Dark Empire as a short novel- The Test of Wills. Would be nice to see something like that- but done by a professional author - maybe Stover.
(The DomusPublica link doesn't work any more, but this one does- it's the last on the list - marked "tow")
Which is not to say comics are a bad thing- but sometimes it helps if there's comic and book.
like what??? KOTOR comics were pretty good. Legacy comics mostly a disappointment, until the end anyway, and they still messed up Luke's legacy. I actually was half enjoying "Invasions", but that died an early death. What am i denying myself?? Novels have much much more depth, and a more complete picture than comics ever will.
Alice in Sunderland
There's 5 great works with a lot of depth and you can't just flick through them either.
Point is JM I don't see people do this on ANY other medium.
I don't see people going: That movie was CRAP! I'm never watching a movie ever again. Or: That album was rubbish - I'm giving up listening to all music FOREVER.
That's practically what you're doing.
No, i am not saying that the medium is crap i was saying that to me it is inferior. I used to collect and read Marvel and DC comics for many years. I loved and enjoyed them all. I guess i should have been more specific. I would rather read a book about Star Wars, then read a comic about Star Wars. Just speaking of Star Wars, nothing else.
many people think a movie is crap, yet they watch other movies. many people think a album is crap, but that does not necessarily keep someone from listening to others albums from that artist. You typically ascribe an extreme to a person's post many times when an extreme is not intended.
Better - though I still think you're wrong - but it's a shame you deny yourself the fun of the Goodwin-Williamson run:
I'm hoping those Goodwin/Williamson strips come out in a modern omnibus edition- to go with all the other recent omnibuses.
i wish invasion would have run longer, I was liking that.
Read Star Wars: In The Shadow of Yavin tonight and the full review's over in the Trades Thread.
The short version? Not a fan, were it not for the likes of Smoke / Ashes, it'd be the worst comic I've read in ages! Obviously I won't be continuing with it.
Quite an unpleasant surprise, all in all, as I was expecting much more from it.
I read your review and I agree with it. I haven't been all that thrilled with this either, though the art has been good. I have been really annoyed about Luke's characterization throughout, and I see that you agree with me. This Luke didn't feel like Luke to me at all!
I also agree with you about Leia as an X-wing pilot. It doesn't feel right to me either. I discussed that right after reading the first episode. Others said they thought it was great that Leia was being given a focus and some other skills, but I truly feel that this was the WRONG way to focus on Leia and the WRONG skills for her. (X-wing pilot) This came out of NOWHERE. If she was such a great pilot, why didn't she join all of the other pilots in the Death Star battle when everyone's very survival was at stake???? When would she have had the opportunity to learn to fly an X-wing? And if she could do this, why didn't they have Leia travel that way with the Death Star plans and Artoo?
I completely agree!
Again, I thought pretty much the same thing. Han's role was interesting in the first issue.... four issues later, it was indeed boring!
As I've complained about before, I also don't think that Wedge should be Luke's boss either. If Red Leader chose Luke over Wedge in the Death Star battle, he must have seen something in Luke that was special. Why would Luke then be "downgraded" a few months later. Luke is almost written as a jerk at one point, and I never saw Luke as a jerk even when he was "brassy and bold" and impatient. Luke just really seemed OFF.
Plus, it looks like for the future, they are going to have WEDGE create Rogue Squadron by himself and will likely be Rogue leader. It has already been established that Luke, Wedge, and one other person collaborated on the creation of Rogue Squadron, and Luke was certainly its first leader. He turned Rogue Squadron over to Wedge when he felt he needed to concentrate on the Force and the Jedi.
That's a great point, JB. Sadly, now more people can't seem to believe that Luke could have done this without falling to the dark side. Even worse, many seem to WANT to believe that Luke fell to the dark side. I really don't understand this and I really *don't* like it! Why do people want heroes to become villains?
Unfortunately, you're probably right about this, IL!
Well, that *memo* obviously was missed by most.
I loved KotOR but I didn't like Legacy at all. I agree that it stomped all over Luke's legacy.
While I have enjoyed quite a few comics, I will agree that for me, novels are preferable. I feel one can really get a lot more characterization through novels than through comics. I also find that I often can't tell exactly what is supposed to be happening in many of the comics' panels.
I think it's probably dependent upon how people view Star Wars and what they define "falling to the dark side" as being. We don't see Luke killing younglings or destroying planets or ordering atrocities like Anakin did. Is falling to the dark side simply metaphor for becoming an evil person and doing evil things? Luke never did anything evil, except through association, and so I wouldn't say that he was an evil person. As we saw in Shadows of Mindor, Luke's brush with the dark side of the Force and the realization of this entropic principle through Cronal induced in him a sense of despair which I think Stover intended to be a retroactive seed for the despair he was feeling at the conclusion of Dark Empire before Leia helped him realize that together they could defeat Palpatine: despair that his plan failed and he didn't kill Palpatine in the clone lab, perhaps due to some sense of doubt that was resolved when he did defeat him about the Eclipse.
On the other hand, I think some people might view falling to the dark side in a more metaphysical or spiritual sense, as though there's some sort of spiritual taint through the association. Thus, Luke's decision making is influenced in this philosophically dualistic sense, that he has this spiritual taint so that the dark side is still influencing him. I think some writers have opted to use this as an excuse for poor characterization, though I think either interpretation works.
Jedi Ben, your short review on the comic makes me wary of the series. And perhaps I might stick with the more animation/live action medium til I see stuff I actually want to see out of Lit.
ChildOfWinds, is Luke's character that off ?
also I agree with you, I don't see how well it would work if they deage Hamill with CGi. I can see them reducing his age by a decade with make up and the exercise but I'm not convinced with the tech just yet. Making a 60 year old into a 20 yr old is a big leap
Edit: just read your long review JB, bravo on the critique as it's both fun and educational It seems there is aura of "offness" with the main characters at least with what I'm hearing, as well as a switch in roles. Leia was known as a capable pilot, but not as a fighter pilot, I suppose Wood didn't hadn't any idea of where to place her action wise ? Han being boring is never a good sign like in CoPL it only drags down the story, even as a Luke fan where I would count the pages to just get to farmboy's POV, Han had the habit of making me laugh when he was in a capable writer's hands. As for Luke, I been mostly neutral on Wood's characterization, mostly cause I haven't read the book but perhaps both you and ChildOfWinds have a point, maybe Luke doesn't seem as earnest or as devoted to the Rebel cause as one might expect after the Battle f Yavin. Group that and a Vader who's also off and you lose me.
I find the idea of Wedge being in command position to be one of the better ideas. Luke may be a star pilot, but is he really, at this point, ready for command? I don't think so and he'd probably agree. Command isn't just about being boss but getting the best out of the people under you. Luke's a star team member but he isn't yet a Captain. He will become so, but not 2 months after Yavin.
For me, Leia is clearly in the role of command at base and, in part owes that position to her Senatorial rank - a member of the Senate defying the Empire is of greater political value than some pilots. The idea that she needs to prove herself in this way suggests an insecurity that you don't think of where Leia's concerned.
Actually, now I think of it, that the Empire permits the Rebels to just leg it from Yavin really grates. The big point of ANH was that they didn't know where the main Rebel base was, but after the Death Star explodes they do. In strategic terms, blockading the system to keep them there makes sense - it was only by blind luck the Rebels manage to evacuate and evade the Executor in Classic Star Wars.
I thought the video game Rebel Strike highlights how the Rebels manage to get off Yavin.....with some really clumsy 3rd person shooting
You really need to read Classic Star Wars.
Does it paint my heroes as heroes and my villains as villains ? I'm really tired of Zahn's sympathetic/noble imperial
Hint: It was done 1982-1984 by Al Williamson and Archie Goodwin, here's a sample...
DHC coloured the strips but did so very carefully.
Minor spoilers at worst....
It was used in Jedi Search:
"I can only say that we have seen these terrible examples, and we must learn from them. I myself have touched the dark side and come through stronger and more wary of its powers than ever before. I agree there is a risk, but I cannot believe the New Republic will be safer without a new force of Jedi."
and Champions of the Force:
"I've already been tempered by the dark side," Luke said. "I came out stronger. You are weak because you know only the evil teachings. Your understanding is no better than that of my apprentices."
Before he vanished, Exar Kun called back, "We shall see who is stronger."
Well, those were written by KJA though, weren't they? He's the one who included DE in the novels in the first place. I said that the "memo" about Luke coming through "stronger" must have been missed by most. I meant most of the other authors besides KJA.
I agree with this one. I don't see how someone can be evil or a darksider if they don't commit evil acts. I will agree that Luke despaired that he couldn't destroy the Emperor or get away from him. But I don't see this as evil.
And I don't "buy" into this one at all. How can everything one does be dark or tainted with dark when one isn't evil and hasn't committed evil??? Luke did so many good and heroic things between DE and VotF. How can Mara or Zahn say that the good deeds Luke performed were tainted with darkness? How can Luke be "spiritually tainted" if he actually triumphed over the dark side instead of falling to it???
And none of that explains why so many people seem to WANT to believe that Luke fell; why they seem to want heroes to become villains or do villainous deeds... I really just don't "get" it!
I thought it was!
It certainly is! A decade is about all that I think would be possible, and I'm not even sure how well that would work.
And especially after what must have been a sobering realization that so many people DIED in that battle, including his childhood friend. His mentor and his guardians had been killed by the Empire too.I would think that would make Luke even more determined and more seriously committed to do what he could to help the Rebel cause.
So why do you think that Red Leader passed over Wedge to give command of Red Squadron to Luke instead???? To me, it seemed as though Red Leader saw something special in Luke. Wedge didn't seem any more ready for command than Luke, and he wasn't all that much older than Luke either.
What do you think about the change in story about the creation of Rogue Squadron? And do you think Wedge should be Rogue Squadron leader ahead of Luke even though throughout all these years Luke has been first Rogue Leader?
I agree about this.
I also don't think they would risk Leia in an X-wing mission. She is pretty much a symbol of the Alliance and the last Princess of Alderaan. There are certainly many others who could be X-wing pilots. It just doesn't make sense to have Leia take on this role.
Stackpole I think does include some of Luke's references to Luke's experience "giving him an understanding of the Dark Side which is vital to fight it".
I seem to remember Terminator 3, you could notice Arnold having crow's feet during behind the scenes and yet the film magically erase it IIRC. I think elimination of wrinkles is possible, but apply too much CGI and you end up with the uncanny valley. Luke being his 40's-50's during the ST could be possible with CGI, if Hamill looks like he did in 08
personally now I pretty much accepted that Hamill will be back and when he's on the screen they should acknowledge that he's in his 50's-60's. But have him back in shape, reduce some wrinkles, and let him perform
yeah, from that outlook Luke isn't looking at the real picture.
We don't really have that as a story though, do we?
Right now, in Star Wood, Wedge is lead of a squadron, not Rogue Saquadron, so easily reconciled. When it gets changed - I've a simpler solution, I really don't care. After all, I've bailed on the story, haven't I?
I love the Episode VII forums. Apparently Luke should be gay.
Hmm, without stepping back in there I think that's a terrible idea. Not because I hate gay people or anything, but for the same reason I thought it was a terrible idea when DC Comics made Alan Scott gay (A Green Lantern who up until that point had been straight, and what's more had two children, one of them who actually was gay.) Its the kind of thing that's only ever done to change an existing character to appeal to a new audience, instead of just making an actual gay character from scratch and then building him up with his own story line and unique plot points. Seems like such a terrible cop out in the grand scheme of things. It'd be like if they suddenly made Superman and all Kryptonians black or Batman Asian. (Though I certainly think they could stand to have superheroes representing more cultures and ethnic groups than they currently do.)There's no actual purpose to that, and it goes against decades of history, when they could just make a new race of aliens to tell that story.
That being said, have there ever actually been any gay characters in Star Wars? I certainly don't remember any, but it's not like I read every work or anything.
Luke's motivation in the first film was to save the princess?
SWTOR has gay characters, and Traviss had one in LOTF.