Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v4)

Well, I wouldn't want Leia and Han to be blamed for Kylo's fall either. The idea that poor little Kylo was neglected by his mom and dad, doesn't sit well with me either. We really know nothing at all about Luke at this point. I still think that Kasdan's words may end up being about Luke. The fact that Luke ran off into exile seems to suggest that HE feels responsible.

 

Well Obi-Wan ran off into exile after Anakin fell, but I don't think he was responsible for Anakin turning into Vader.

I also hate the idea of JJ et al blaming the Big Three for Kylo's fall. I really wish we had gotten Lucas' original story of the Jedi Killer being unrelated, that way if they wanted to woobify him and make it his parents fault he went Dark, they wouldn't be destroying beloved heroes and making them hated by the new generation of Star Wars.

 

Oh, I'm a drifter. I come and go with the winds.

I can see how irksome it seems about Luke's accomplishments. I still feel since we're only seeing a story half told, it's far too early to make any judgement calls on his legacy though, OT accomplishments not withstanding. Life isn't always kind to heroes, even fictional ones. Kylo's fall was not Luke's fault, but I can see how it left him broken hearted for a time.

The story telling considerations are this:
1: The First Order including Snoke consider Luke Skywalker to be, almost certainly, the most major impediment to their plans for galactic control. Hence why Snoke deliberately targeted Kylo in the first place, to kill two birds with one stone.
2: Luke and Rey's relationship is going to be key to, calling back to the film's intro, "beginning to put things right."
3: It's hard to tell a story of conflict and victory when the main character's problems have already been "solved". I'm not suggestion Joss Whendonesque misery need be reached for each character, but I do understand the need to kick our heroes down a few pegs. So we can watch them get up again. That's what heroes do.

Putting it this way, would it have been any better to show Luke had a vibrant, functioning, Jedi Order in Force Awakens? Only for Kylo and the Knights of Ren to obliterate it in Episode 8 as, "the Empire Strikes Back" moment of choice? As it stands, Luke is Rocky is Rocky III. His confidence is shot and he's on the verge of giving up after a major defeat. He's not going to stay down though, he just needs some encouragement. No man is an island.

 

I would've preferred to see a vibrant Jedi Order even if it had been destroyed, because then we'd at least have gotten to see Luke having accomplished something great between movies.
The narrative call backs to the OT make me kind of nervous. I feel like it's likely that Luke will get killed after half training Rey just like Kenobi died.

 

I have a new theory as to what Luke's up to but it's elsewhere:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...movie-spoilers.50039498/page-26#post-53952734

 

If it's the same destination, it matters if we see it or not?

 

It matters to me if we see it.

 

Of course Luke feels responsible. Every teacher probably feels a little responsible when their student fails. That's a natural part of being a leader; you can't help but blame yourself when your followers fail. And in some instances, that might even be true. But in this case it absolutely isn't. Luke can't be blamed for Kylo's failing. Why? Because no matter how much a teacher prepares their student, it's ultimately that student's responsibility when the test comes. In school, if a teacher has prepared their students as well as they can for a test, then it's the students' responsibility to study for the test and to pass it. Same here. Luke gave Kylo all the tools he needed, I'm sure, to confront the darkness within himself. If Kylo submitted to the darkness it's not Luke's fault, it's Kylo's. Just like it's not Obi-Wan's fault that Anakin fell; Obi-Wan taught Anakin all that he could; ultimately, Anakin made the choice to turn to the dark side. That wasn't Obi-Wan's failure, it was Anakin's. Kylo isn't Luke failure. He's his own failure. Luke has nothing to feel guilty about, but that doesn't mean he doesn't. Again, that's part of being a leader. I'm sure he'll overcome that. Also part of being a leader.

 

Well, I'm hoping this will end up being true. However, we have absolutely no information about Luke right now. We don't know what happened between Luke and kylo. We truly don't know whether something that happened in the training or when Luke and Ben were going around the galaxy looking for Jedi things or whatever, played a big factor or not. So far, Luke has been side-lined in the ST and its EU. We only know that Luke felt responsible and walked away from everything. We have no idea why. We may actually find that Luke WAS at least partially responsible.

@ master skywalker, I will respond to your post when I have more time.

 

Um...how exactly does that track? We know that it was Snoke who seduced Ben. If anyone's to blame other than Ben himself, it's Snoke. Luke doesn't enter into that. Unless he actively encouraged Ben's turn to the dark side (hint: he didn't), he's not responsible for Ben's fall.

 

What were Luke's accomplishments in the OT really? He destroyed one Death Star; rescued Han from jabba; and brought his father back to the light side. That's really it. Then thirty years of his life were wasted and his legacy was taken away from him when the powers that be decided to destroy his Jedi order. And in the end, what did it matter that he saved his father from the dark side when his nephew fell to the dark side on his watch, just repeating the dark skywalker cycle.

My fear is that Luke will train Rey and then he will be killed off, leaving the restoration of the Jedi to Rey, and giving Rey and not Luke that legacy, though I feel it rightly should be his. But I can see the new filmmakers wanting to make Rey more special and important by having her get the credit for restoring the order instead of Luke. As you know, mentors rarely survive after they have passed on their skills to an apprentice. The authors are always too fearful that the mentor might then steal the thunder from the heroic apprentice. We already know that the authors just gave Luke a cameo in TFA because they couldn't come up with a plot that didn't have Luke overshadow Rey. So they took him out. Frankly, I think that's a cop out. Good writers should be able to come up with useful roles for all their characters without having one inadvertently eclipse another. Be that as it may, since they couldn't find a way to make Luke work as a character in TFA, I don't see how that is going to change for the next film. So I really do think that once Luke has trained Rey, it won't be long before he becomes one with the force.

I think the big and important relationship going forward is going to be the Rey/ kylo relationship, unfortunately.

As I said, I don't think Luke is going to have much of a role beyond passing on Jedi knowledge.

While I agree that some conflict is necessary in order to tell a new story, they didn't need to take absolutely everything away from the OT characters and make their lives completely miserable. The characters didn't just get kicked down a few pegs, they were kicked completely to the ground and then stomped on. Luke, for example seems to have absolutely nothing. His Jedi order is gone. His Jedi are all dead. His nephew went down the same dark path his father did, and Luke was powerless to stop it. He has lived totally alone for who knows how many years, without even Artoo to keep him company. He doesn't even have a relationship with Leia or Han anymore, and he doesn't seem to have found personal happiness in his life with a wife and children. Believe me, that is not the life I envisioned or wanted for Luke.

If all they could think of to do with Han, Luke, and Leia was give them terrible lives and wreck their legacies, then I truly wish that they wouldn't have included the OT characters at all. They could have simply moved forward with their story about a hundred years. They could have basically told the same story that was told in TFA, while still showing respect to the OT characters by giving them something of a happy life, and leaving them with a legacy. Or, they could have told the same story in the same timeframe, but not taken everything from the OT characters. Couldn't at least some of Luke's Jedi have survived, for example? Couldn't both Luke and Leia have been given a good kid that we could follow in future stories? The way things stand now, there may be no good legacy child going forward, only evil kylo. Or, if Rey is a legacy character, either Luke or Leia and their fans will be unhappy, depending on which sibling is Rey's parent.

 

Pretty good legacy if you ask me!

Also, I think that perspective is giving too much power to other people. Was MLK a "failure" because America is dealing with police brutality and a huge resurgence in racism today? By that criteria, it sure seems like it! A generation has come and gone, and it looks more than ever like people forgot the important lessons, the sacrifice, and the struggle is beginning all, over, again. We thought ourselves so smart and advanced, and in some ways, the problem never really left, even after many real, public victories.

And you know what else? MLK was not a perfect man. He wasn't a good husband, and had other personal flaws. The man is still a hero though, and I think that's why we need to remember what heroes do now more than ever. Regardless of whether or not the next generation squanders it or not. They did the right thing, at the right time. That's what makes a hero.

 

Eh, Legacy wise, Luke still redeemed Darth Vader and effectively killed two Sith Lords in the process. Indeed, if Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker metaphorically, Luke Skywalker slew Darth Vader as well as helped Anakin Skywalker kill Darth Sidious.

I admit, though, it seems increasingly likely that Luke is going to be the Tenzin (Legend of Korra reference) of the new Trilogy versus the Avatar themselves. I don't know if rumors are true about Rey's parentage (any of them) but Luke Skywalker is going to be a secondary character to the story no matter what. I don't think they're going to kill Luke any more than I think they're going to kill Leia but I fully expect Luke Skywalker will be portrayed as unable to defeat to defeat Snoke. My ideal ending is Kylo Ren dies defeating Snoke with Rey.

But that, like The Force Awakens, is a bit TOO much of a retread and it might be better to have Ren survive.

Either way, I forsee something like Luke being captured versus killed in the Third movie.

 

Would you say the same for Han/Leia and their role as parents? Because JJ and Adam Driver seem to blame their poor parenting on Ben going Dark and Adam Driver doesn't even mention Snoke being a factor in Kylo's fall.

I think Adam Driver/JJ's lack of blaming Luke while blaming Han/Leia seems to imply that Ben may have been sent to Luke quite late, so Luke actually didn't have much of an influence over him compared to Han/Leia.

 

I think Kylo Ren's mistakes are all his own doing but I "get" Kylo Ren's fall better than Jacen Solo's. My view of Kylo Ren is that he desperately wanted to be someone important when he was the son of two people who would always be more important than him. Discovering he was Darth Vader's grandson allowed him to step out of their shadow (and into Vader's) because Vader was dead and an idol he could conveniently imitate without coming off like a pale imitation. It's dramatic Irony that Kylo Ren is far more pathetic as a wannabe Vader than he ever would have been as Luke's Emo maladjusted apprentice.

 

Oh come on COW, you want to do this dance again?

We've an entire movie coming out that is going to establish, once and for all, exactly what a big, mind-bogglingly big, absolutely super-massive deal the Death Star was for the Empire and the Emperor. And Luke blew it to hell, so lighting a signal pyre for the entire galaxy to rebel.

He then goes and survives a duel with Darth Vader, who in the new continuity is He-Who-Slaughters-Entire-Worlds. Vader is Mr None-Shall-Live. Luke duelled him and lived. Sure, he lost a hand, but he walked away, everyone else who has survived Vader has done so by quickly realising how outclassed they are and utterly legging it, preferably onto a ship and flooring it.

Then, in Jedi, he takes a scourge of the Outer Rim, a Jabba's been doing bad crap for decades then defeats Vader on the Death Star 2, refuses to go dark, royally pisses off the absolute force of darkness that has taken over the galaxy and been supreme for over 20 years. In not fighting him directly, he revives the true spirit of his father, who then takes out the Emperor.

You really think the galaxy would have been better off without Luke, that a psychopathic Emperor, armed with a fleet Death Stars - he was never going to stop at one - is better?

 

I hope Luke doesn't die in ep. 8 or even 9. Don't care for much for making it "rhyme" anymore.

 

As another had mentioned it's Luke defeat of Vader and then refusal to kill his father is what destroys the Sith Lord and brings back Anakin in order to destroy the final sith. If Luke wasn't there, well RotJ would be a lot shorter

 

Hi, Mat! Good to see you! It's been a while!

 

Hiya Child hope u had a good Thanksgiving.

 

hey all. Luke was instrumental in the destruction of the sith and the empire. But here we are 30 years later the sith are still around and in power. Luke accomplished much more than that in the eu, and we need him to accomplish something major now. I have big concerns with episode 8 and even more so 9.

 

I agree, jedimatteus!

Mat Skywalker, thanks! I had a houseful of family on thanksgiving, so that was good!

 

I really don't get this mindset of, "it's all for nothing."

History does not work like that. By that definition, since nothing is static, the Founding Fathers were "failures" given the recent political problems in America. The SEALs who killed Bin Laden were "failures" because Islamic terrorist cells still exist. Or that women's rights was a "failure" due to our recent election... Even Moses didn't enter the Promised Land himself! He's still known as the Deliverer.

That's not how life works, if something spins against the "good" version of the history we're hoping for, that does not invalidate everything that came before it!

 

I understand what you're saying, but this is fiction, and Luke, Leia, and han are beloved, iconic characters. I truly feel that they should have been respected by the filmmakers when they made these new films. Passing over Luke to give the Jedi legacy to a new character, wouldn't be right. As I said, I understand that conflict/problems were needed in order to start a new trilogy. HOWEVER, they didn't need to diminish these characters or make their lives completely miserable in the process. There was a "happy medium" that they could have reached. They didn't need to make the only new family character the villain, and they didn't need to kill off all of Luke's Jedi. What they did was pretty much rehash the prior films and reset everything back to the way that it was before a new hope. Personally, I didn't think that was a very good or creative story to tell. They had a completely open canvas and this was the best that they could come up with? They made everything that happened in the OT pretty much irrelevant, and they made Luke, Han, and Leia complete failures both personally and professionally. Sorry, but I don't have to like that just because that's what professional writers chose to do.

 

This is a far better way to go COW than simply trying to say the galaxy was better off without them because that one is never going to fly, especially not in the wake of Rogue One. It's a much better argument - one thing everyone'd agree on is ep 8 has a massive job to do.