SOS - SON OF SKYWALKER : YOU (THE FANS) ARE MY ONLY HOPE!! SAVE ME... (Spoilers)

Much of my explanation of Luke in NJO is creative, it works by reading between the lines to material that simply is not in the books.

A related matter to NJO critics is that in DJ Jag Fel arranges a meeting with Luke. Ah, then the kids are taking charge is the cry! But as of now I think not.

Think it over. We know from VOTF that Baron Fel and Luke know and respect each other, Fel has instilled a sense of respect for the Jedi in his son. See his talk with Jaina in Ruin. Therefore he asked to see Luke and Luke allowed him to, Jagged Fel would not have the gall to tell Luke Skywalker to come and see him, the kid is incapable of doing so as he is very hot on protocol.

Therefor Jag Fel's request to see Luke can be seen as a sign that Luke is returning to his proper status.

Jedi Ben

p.s. KK: Plenty of time for you to yet experience that first kiss! I know of what I speak!

 

As I said before, this will ultimately come down to a matter of interpretation.

Dewlanna Solo - I understand and fully respect your concerns. I just feel Star Wars has always epitomized the tale of young heroes emerging from obscurity and commanding a presence of their own in the face of several older, wiser and more experienced charcters. Despite this glaring imbalance you speak of among the newer and more experienced characters, I just don't see it. If anything, SbS descried a Luke which continues to command a presence of his own, unsurpassed and unrivaled by any from this newer generation.

Jades Fire -

Vector Prime showed the newer generation as apprentices of the older generation, working together, all involved in the fight to defeat the enemy. Luke hasn't really been involved since Ruin.

Also not necessarily true. VP set the stage for the emergence of the newer generation. We knew, from the Solo brothers' lightsaber duel to the three Solos running the belt to the three in metaconcert when defending Lando's planet to Jacen & Jaina saving Danni, that a newer league of characters will rise from the obscurity of adolescence.

The problems all began in Jedi Eclipse when two teenagers were sent to Centerpoint without adult supervision.

Also incorrect. Their tutor - Ebrihim - was there. But we're talking about Luke, right? And Luke cannot possibly manage to be everywhere at the same time to lend his expert advise to everyone at once, can he? Interesting how no matter the specific criticism of the NJO - Luke's character, in this case - many shunt this particular problem into a broader, age-old criticism of the NJO. Frankly, I find that offensive.

Your condescending attitude notwithstanding...

The contention that the younger Solos are inept as of the end of YJK or they only serve to delineate the incompetence of the more experienced characters is equally patronizing. In a Star Wars galaxy where young characters are shown to emerge from obscurity again and again, we find earlier posts in this thread referring to those younger than Luke as "twirps" or "teeny boppers shoved down our throats" or Solo brats. Why is that exactly? Because they are Han & Leia's kids - God forbid Leia producing kids strong enough in the Force to handle the YV - or because they are young or because of all of the above? Does the animosity lie with Luke's character depiction or with the younger generation in general? Are we even talking about Luke anymore? Or the fact that DR appears to push aside the more experienced, wiser and older characters in favor of their own kids? Luke's own nephews and niece which he trained. Other despicable teeny boppers from YJK also.

The balance is more than evident since the DT duology in my humble opinion.

 

Luke doesn't see that he has to leave Coruscant; Mara is the one who tells him that. Luke doesn't realize that Rogue Squadron helping him escape could precipitate a split in the NR; Mara is the one who tells him. More stupid, stupid Luke!

A Zahn fan complaining that Mara knows all and tells Luke the error of his ways? Never thought the day would come!


It took the H/L fans protest thread to help clean up the muck over their characters previous mischaracterization

PPOR

 

Thanks for starting this thread, Skydancer!I don't usually post, but I decided to make an exception in this case. It's about time that someone spoke up for this character. Luke Skywalker has always been my favorite character. (note my Forcenet name) However, I don't recognize the Luke that I enjoyed in the films or in many of the Bantam books in the weak, stupid, inactive Skywalker character of the NJO. I definitely want to see Luke play a more active role in future books, and I want to see him written as the intelligent, talented character he is supposed to be.

Vergere-,
I mean VP made it abundantly clear this series will feature a newer generation of Jedi.

I disagree completely. I had no idea when I read VP that the OT characters were being replaced by the younger ones. I just thought that the Solo kids were going to be playing a more active role ALONG with the older characters. I liked the idea of Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin as the apprentices of Luke and Mara. I expected that to continue for a long, long time. After all, Obi-wan Kenobi was the apprentice of Qui-gon Ginn for about 12 years. I didn't expect the kids to be off on their own just a couple of books into the series.

By CONQUEST though, I KNEW that the kids were taking over the galaxy. I even wrote to the editor, Shelly Shapiro, and told her that I was disappointed that the former adult books were being aimed at younger readers and that the older characters were weak and had such limited roles.

In her response, she said that it was NOT Del Rey's intention to pitch the books at younger readers, ( Could have fooled me!) and that they were planning to strengthen the adult characters in future books and expand their roles. (I certainly haven't seen this with Luke or Mara.)

Vergere: If anything, SbS descried a Luke which continues to command a presence of his own, unsurpassed and unrivaled by any from this newer generation.

Exactly what in SBS gave you that impression, if you don't mind my asking? I saw a very hen-pecked husband with very little backbone in SBS. As someone said, about all he did was fly an X-wing.

The balance is more than evident since the DT duology in my humble opinion.

WHAT BALANCE???????

Other than the battle at Corucsant, which wasn?t winnable, he was shown to be a great leader, Dewlanna Solo.

Examples, please?

Now the focus is moving to the next generation again. Not because the older generation can?t deal with the galaxy, but simply because it is time for a massive change in the GFFA.

Who says so? What if I happen to like reading about Luke, Leia, and Han? As an earlier poster said, why can't we have both the adults and the teenage Jedi actively involved? Why can't the adults be heroes as well as the kids? Why can't there be something for adult readers too? Why does Del Rey just focus on younger readers when they can please everyone by balancing the roles of the adult characters and the younger characters, and thus sell more books?

 

Jedi Ben,

Thanks. I know. It's not that I've not had the opportunity, just that I have never taken advantage of it. (In fact just tonight I was out on a date with a charming young lady.) I've not been looking for romance, instead preferring to seek friendship and let romance develop from that.

Raz927,

It appears that you missed the point of my response. I was attempting (and obviously failing) to point out that 1) lack of having kissed someone does not translate to being too young or inexperienced and 2) Anakin did have sufficient experience to fulfill the roles he was given.

I have know people who were officers in the military when they were younger than I am. As an officer, they were responsible for leading others. Many of them served during wartime, sometimes being sent directly from boot camp (or Officer Indocrination School) to battle. Did their age mean that they were unqualified to lead? No. Especially when you have knowledgable people backing you up, like Anakin did during the mission.

One of the men I know enlisted in the Army for WWII when he was 17. Within a year, he had been made an officer and placed higher in the chain of command, often commanding groups of men at least the size of the Jedi strike team. His age did not limit his experience.

Anakin had a wide variety of experiences that prepared him, at least as much as my friend was prepared, to lead the mission. He was no stranger to battle.

Kimball Kinnison

 

"A Zahn fan complaining that Mara knows all and tells Luke the error of his ways? Never thought the day would come!"

ReaperFett, you disappoint me!!! I enjoy Zahn's books a lot, yet I hate Mara Jade (and her clone, Mirax) with a passion, and completely agree with your views on her.

EDIT: "In her response, she said that it was NOT Del Rey's intention to pitch the books at younger readers, ( Could have fooled me!) and that they were planning to strengthen the adult characters in future books and expand their roles. (I certainly haven't seen this with Luke or Mara.)"

Aaron Allston's upcoming duology, Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand will feature almost solely the older generation (Han, Luke, Lando, etc.) This seems, at least to me, to guarantee expanded roles for them.

 

Warning - Long post - very long post! I seemed to have the time to spend here after all my homework's done. Here are some of my replies to previous posts.

---------------
justified - Get over it. Thats the way it goes. If you're bitching about Luke not having an active enough role in the NJO, then why aren't you bitching about how Yoda didn't hop in Luke's X-wing in ESB and kill both Vader and Emperor himself? I'll tell you why, it wasn't his "destiny" It was Luke who was suppose to end the conflict. And he did. Just as its not Luke's destiny to end the Vong conflict.

You're right, it's not Luke's destiny....... it's the destiny that the Delrey/LFL chose for him. In a smaller role - the destiny that the future writers of NJO chose for him. The reason for me starting this thread for Luke.

justified - Character deaths and twists in the plot make the books INTERESTING. How interesting would they be if you and everyone else knew that Luke Skywalker would simply show up, use his lightsaber and beat bad guys? On the "interesting" side note, I think Anakin's death was perfect. Everyone thought he'd be the one to figure it out and defeat the Vong. Well, now he's dead and nobody knows what to do. THAT is interesting.

You've just showed that everyone has a different interpretation of what is INTERESTING. To you character deaths and twists as INTERESTING, but to others, its the storyline, indepth detail of the war against the Vong, their NR counterspies, the reaction of the over 10,000 different lifeforms that form the NR government, the over 100 Jedis masters and knights, the disbanding of the scums of the former Imps, etc...

---------------
nichos marr - Well then explain why Luke hasn't been really used for a significant role thus far? I don't know what that says to you, but to me it means "Move over old man, let us take over." After all it wasn't Luke that went on the Jedi strike mission.

And who's fault was it that made you come to this conclusion - the writers and publishers. If only he was written in a better light, maybe you would see him as a leader instead. By the way, 40's is not an old man. Check out the athletes age in Olympics....add that to a Jedi with a powerful force as his ally equal to a pretty active young man.

-------------
Roa - Nichos_Marr is right. The New Jedi Order is about the younger Jedi. Mostly the Solo kids. Luke has already saved the galaxy a hundred times. Its time for him to move over. Besides he has a kid to take care of now.

JediJSolo - Luke was the first of the new at the time of TTT. Now, over 16 years later, he?s not so new anymore. He?s not old, but he has taken a more Yoda like position, rather than a young Jedi worrier like position. I think that is to be expected.

Kier Nimmion - I'm sorry, but 'New Jedi Order' seems to be a bit of a dead giveaway

Roa, jedijsolo, Kier Nimmion, if you would read the quote Child of Winds posted, you will see that the Star Wars Insider confirmed Luke as the leader of the NEW JEDI ORDER.

-----------------
Vergere
Jades Fire - The problems all began in Jedi Eclipse when two teenagers were sent to Centerpoint without adult supervision.

Also incorrect. Their tutor - Ebrihim - was there. But we're talking about Luke, right? And Luke cannot possibly manage to be everywhere at the same time to lend his expert advise to everyone at once, can he? Interesting how no matter the specific criticism of the NJO - Luke's character, in this case - many shunt this particular problem into a broader, age-old criticism of the NJO. Frankly, I find that offensive.

Vergere, I'm sorry you find it offensive, but if you would have read JadesFire post again you would see that she specifically mentioned ADULT - no where in the post there's a mention of Luke being everywhere at the same time. I would like to quote GAW here too:

GAW - Surely there must be more Jedi in the over nineteen crowd besides Luke, Kyp, Cilghal, Kam, Streen and Tionne. They're the Jedi I want to see more of--not more kids.

 

I'm still puzzling over just what people are looking for from Han and Leia. Their roles, to me, don't seem that much different from what they've always been. They're not getting into as many close-quarter-battles, shooting bad guys from twenty feet away, as in the past, but that's about it, as far as I can tell.

Even though there's obviously a passionate and vocal group calling for expanded roles for the original characters, I think you'd see an even larger group howling about the unrealistic nature of the stories if they, (Han and Leia) were still the same "action heroes" from the films, which are now 25 years past. If they were living in our galaxy, Han would be getting close to retirement age! They can still be - and are - integral characters, while at the same time leaving some of the more physical action to the younger generation, for whom that role is better suited.

Even tho I'm arguing against the OT character supporters, believe it or not, I tend to agree with you about Luke. Han and Leia are one thing, because they aren't Jedi (no, Leia is not a Jedi). Luke, on the other hand, is the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and I'd like to see that shown a little more.

But rather than see this as a permanent weakening of his character, I prefer to look at it as simply an ongoing storyline. The galaxy is invaded by a brutal race bent on nothing less than total domination - every system, every planet, every species. Does Luke try to uphold to the ideals that have been the benchmarks of the Jedi for 1001 generations, or does he say "the ends justify the means" and do whatever is necessary to defeat the threat?

Making this an even more difficult decision for him is that he now has over 100 younger - or at least less experienced - Jedi looking to him for guidance. Any aggressive action on his part is going to be duplicated by the others, and while he may know where the line is that he can't cross, the less experienced Jedi won't, and risk falling to the dark side.

While I'd prefer to see Luke have already taken a more active role, I have still been able to find interest in this moral dilemma that has been presented to him. The authors have forced us, the readers, to try to decide what we think is more important: the noble traditions and standards of the Jedi Order, or survival. This has been played out wonderfully in the running argument between Luke and Kyp. While not many people like Kyp, it's sometimes hard to disagree with his point of view.

I said this once already, and I'll say it again: I still believe Luke is going to be the ultimate hero of this story. Why? Because none of the other Jedi have the "charisma" to fill that role, and if anyone other than a Jedi is the final savior, then we'll ALL have reason to complain!

 

Roa, jedijsolo, Kier Nimmion, if you would read the quote Child of Winds posted, you will see that the Star Wars Insider confirmed Luke as the leader of the NEW JEDI ORDER.

Who ever said that he wasn?t, Skydancer? Yoda was the leader of the old Jedi order, and he didn?t do very much fighting at all. Just because he?s the leader doesn?t mean that he needs to be the focus of the books.

Why indeed?? Wouldn't it be far better if this aspect of the Voxyn queen is explain in detail throughout the book. Instead, we have all these assumptions of what, who and why?

These assumptions are based on blatantly obvious facts. I recommend that you be patient. Traitor takes place soon after SbS, and I?m sure that we will see Nen Yim in it. It is extremely likely that you will be getting your explanation in that book.

The main point is 'being groomed', but so far in this NJO - the teenagers are not groomed anymore, they already took over!

Took over what? The story? Yes. Few people are denying that they have become the dominant figures in the story.

Have they taken over the NJO? No. Luke is still in charge of that. But again, that doesn?t mean that he should be the focus of the story.

So the real question is, being groomed for what? They are being groomed to take over at the head of the New Jedi Order when Luke steps down to be with his family.

Why do you think I started this thread - it was after I saw someone posting for the death of Luke Skywalker. I could give you the link but it must not have been popular because it's nowhere to be found.

The thread was probably deleted by a mod. I can assure you that any thread that is worthy of a deletion isn?t something to get this upset about. It was likely deleted to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

He wouldn't write her as a self-obsessed for power as to override Luke's leadership

That?s not even close to being true! What do you call all those lectures she gave Luke during Vision of the Future? She was trying to nock him down a few notches. She was trying to prove to him that he wasn?t right, and that she was. That undermines Luke?s leadership, and guess what, Zahn wrote it. And as far as overriding Luke?s leadership, he as upset, and wasn?t fit to make the important decisions that needed to be made. If Zahn had written the book, he would have had Mara do the same thing in that situation.

Mara Jade I know goes for the biggest and sleekiest ships in GFFA.

You must have forgotten about her old headhunter.

 

Heya kk. Being no stranger to battle in my opinion does not qualify you to lead and be in charge of many other lives. I do not recall in reading any Star Wars books of Anakin having previous experience in leading battles. As far as comparing it to real life military situations, I would be very surprised to hear about any 17 year olds leading Navy Seal missions into Afghanisthan. Granted there are many 17 year olds with more experience then others, and Anakin would most likely fit into that category.

Lets scratch the kiss example since I'm not sure you understand me either. There are things to be learned from intimate relationships, moving out of home, starting your first job etc. Things you learn about life, and things that would most certainly be tools in leading people. You don't generally experience these things at 8 or 9. In our world your an adult at 18. Granted there are probably 16 year olds more mature then 18 year olds, but lets not get technical. Anakin had yet to experience A LOT of things. For these reasons, I wouldn't have let those kids go on that kind of mission, especially with Anakin as leader, and sbs seemed to agree with me. The book was clearly showing how their lack of life experience and war experience was affecting them. That Raynar kid had just had his first intimate experience with a girl and he loses it when she is killed. The girl, who was portrayed to be much more experienced in those matters, was shown to be less affected by their brief romantic encounter. Anakin still hadn't recovered from Chewies death and he was freezing up every time someone died, showing he clearly hadn't learned to deal with death yet, and in my estimation thats definitely something you need to have a grip on to LEAD a dangerous mission like this one. They made references to Jaina on how she was so detached because she had lost friends in battle, and alluded to the fact that she hadn't yet learned to deal with it properly, and clearly portrayed that when death hit too close to home and she exploded.

I don't think Luke, Han, or Leai would have approved of that mission, but they did because thats where the storyline had to go, and it made them look very bad to me. This is why I was so surprised when the mission went so horribly wrong. I thought they were going to gloss over the ridiculousness of the whole mission by letting it be a tremendous success. It was as if they were clarifying for me my feelings when they planned out this mission at the beginning: "Yes, it was very stupid to let these young people, especially this collection of young people, go on this mission." Jacens presence did end up compromising the mission. They wanted the twins and, after playing a board game, Lah figures out their plan and sends Nom Anor and Vergere to make sure they get them. So, Luke Skywalker, who is supposed to be the wise old leader, is outwitted and made to look like a big idiot. Han at least tried to stop it, though they made it look like he was just being over protective, like he didn't have reservations about the other 14-19 year olds taking on this kind of a mission. It's all layed out in that story, blatantly saying to everybody listening: Luke and everybody who agreed to this mission is an idiot. Why? Because they needed Luke to be an idiot to further their storyline. If they wanted to make Luke the wise old man behind the scenes in the NJO, fine. But for Gods sake, MAKE HIM THE WISE OLD MAN BEHIND THE SCENES.

 

XWing5:
I liked the idea of Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin as the apprentices of Luke and Mara. I expected that to continue for a long, long time. After all, Obi-wan Kenobi was the apprentice of Qui-gon Ginn for about 12 years. I didn't expect the kids to be off on their own just a couple of books into the series.

You mean the same way Luke studied all those years under Ben and Yoda?

It's nice to have that luxury in peacetime, but in wartime, things don't always work the same way.

Skydancer:
I don't need your pity, Crow, infact, I'm happy that you are very satisfied, but I'm not. So, give us - the ones who are not happy with NJO - a chance to stand on the soapbox and give our two already worthless imperial credits in this thread to save the Luke Skywalker that we know and loved.

After re-reading the comment that you referenced, I apologize, I was out of line. I only hope you realized I wasn't speaking to you so much as the anti-NJO people in general. It's just frustrating to be constantly told that something we're thoroughly enjoying is terrible, and implying that there's something wrong with us for liking it, and wondering why we're not out there banging LFL's and Del Rey's doors down, demanding action.

Isn't it sad that it comes down to Luke flying the X-wing as 'cool'. Shows how unreasonable he was written before he became 'a cool Jedi in an X-wing'. To me he was always the ultimate 'cool' guy in Star Wars.

I think you missed my point on this one. I wasn't pointing this out as some Grand Redemption of his Character, merely that with him being supposedly one of the greatest pilots in the galaxy, I just thought it was an interesting aspect we hadn't seen from him in a long time.

The main point is 'being groomed', but so far in this NJO - the teenagers are not groomed anymore, they already took over!

I wish somebody could back this up. To me, it seems like an equal balance of the old with the new, but reading some of these posts you'd think the kids are 85% of the story. Unfortunately I don't think there's any way of figuring out exactly what kind of "screen time" each character is getting, and it's left up to each individual reader to "perceive" who's getting the bigger parts, and that's where the problem is coming in.

And Skydancer, how long did that post take you?

 

ChildofWinds,

By the time of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, LUKE SKYWALKER's New Jedi Order consisted of approximately one hundred Knights and Masters (and twenty-odd Jedi children.

Here's another quote from the same source:

As the head of the new Jedi Order, LUKE SKYWALKER carries more weight on his shoulders than anyone in the galaxy.

Yes, he leads the order, but should be the soul focus of the series? 'New Jedi Order' can be taken two ways: Either a new order of Jedi, meaning the next generation or, a new Jedi order in which the Jedi rise to prominence that they once had during the Old Republic. Those two seem to be the most reasonable, and from the way the books have been shaping up, it seems that the former is the way its going.

I don't have a problem either way.

So, as the HEAD of the NEW JEDI ORDER, why isn't Luke Skywalker making meaningful contributions to the NJO storyline?

I can't answer that except with my above reply, while he is the leader he is not the focus.

Why is he always a background character and why do we always have to guess at what his motivations and reasons are instead of being allowed inside his head to understand them? Why is he so rarely used as a point of view character?

It had been my understanding early on that each book would spotlight one or two characters. In that respect, Vector Prime was Luke's book.

However, I am also of two minds on your questions. Yes, I like Luke a lot and enjoy it when we see things from his point of view. At the same time, I also like many of the new characters introduced and want to see things through there eyes as well.

I hope Enemy Lines gives you what you want.

As for being active in SBS, all he did was fly an X-wing, something he did as an 18 year old. A Jedi Master should be doing something more.

I don't see what else he could have done in the context of the book. He is neither a politician nor a scientist, so that lkeaves out dealing with the senate or Cilghal's level of research. Maybe more time spent formulating the insertion of the strike team?

I don't think he should have led the strike team, that was the kid's time to shine (and I know people hate them for it), but honestly, I don't think Anakin did that bad of a job in directing the team- his leadership only fell apart really when he was injured. Admitedly, more mature people would have handled the deaths a little better than the young Jedi did and would not have let them influence their emotions so negatively, but even that didn't bother me. I felt it was good drama to see the cohesiveness of the team fall apart as exhaustion and negativity began to break them down- far more than the actual torture at the beginning did.

PLUS, Mara took over his Jedi leadership twice in SBS without Luke's permission. This just continues to make him look weak and foolish.

Hum, I guess I don't know what mean here by taking over leadership- as in making decisions? What did she do?

Why does the NJO need to be adults vs. kids anyway?

I don't really see it as that.

Why couldn't Del Rey give Luke SKywalker and other adult Jedi useful, heroic roles along WITH the young Jedi Knights?

Again, I have a feeling that it's out with the old and in with the new - whether we like it or not.

Why couldn't Del Rey please adult fans as well as teenage fans? That's what I object to.

I am pleased with it, Lucerno's books notwithstanding.

The NJO has been geared mostly toward teenage fans and teenage characters instead of balancing adults and teenagers.

If this is the case then it's also the rub of the matter. Their demographics show that they have the money to buy books and gearing it towards younger readers means more kids reading- not all that bad an idea, really.

If the Han/Leia fans hadn't undertaken their huge campaign for those characters, Han and Leia would probably still be handled poorly, as Luke and Mara continue to be handled badly.

What campaign? Was there a letter writing or a

 

First off, I must say I agree with -Vergere-, JediJSolo, Crow_T_Fett and others who are enjoying the NJO and do not think Luke Skywalker's character or any of the adults are being butchered, destroyed or whatever else the detractors of the NJO want to call it. I'm also not going to get into a big debate or argument about it since I've seen most of the so called critics in this thread post this kind of bull**** before and I know nothing in this world is going to break though some of their thick skulls. I will point out though for those of you who say that Luke is not seeing enough action that perhaps you might want to check out Aaron Allston's books Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand. According to the synopis on the official site, Luke, as well as the rest of the adult characters seem poised to see significantly more action. I've provided the links in case anyone has forgotten or hasn't seem them yet. In my opinion these books are the last hope for you anti NJO people to like any of the rest of the books since it now seems abundantly clear that you all are either unwilling or unable to give any of the new authors any fair chance at all. If Allston, a fan favorite from your beloved Bantam days can't provide you with books that please you than I seriously doubt that you will give any of the others a chance to so.

 

Mara Jade I know goes for the biggest and sleekiest ships in GFFA.


LOL! Never heard a Z-95 headhunter be called THAT!

 

MeccaDon, I'm also not going to get into a big debate or argument about it since I've seen most of the so called critics in this thread post this kind of bull**** before and I know nothing in this world is going to break though some of their thick skulls.

How very mature of you. If I didn't already know it after the last time you instigated the name-calling in a "pre-emptive strike" against people who don't like the NJO, this seals it. I guess your words of 3 months ago calling for people to ratchet down the name calling was just a bunch of the bull you so very eloquently mentioned above.

 

Nichos Marr - ...I suspect that Nen Yim created the Voxyn queen, or was somehow related to that creation. She's reached the eighth cortex and knows a lot about shaping that even Masters do not. Perhaps the Voxyn queen was a perfect shaping design, and it would be very difficult for the same one to be produced on that level of perfection?

JediJSolo - If the Vong could just whip up a new voxyn Queen, then why did they go though all that trouble to clone the first one? Why not just create a fresh one every time one was needed? And if they could just whip up a new queen, why did they spend so much time and energy to protect the first one?

Skydancer: Why indeed?? Wouldn't it be far better if this aspect of the Voxyn queen is explain in detail throughout the book. Instead, we have all these assumptions of what, who and why?

MariahJade2
Jedi Ben - You bring up many things that Luke has done, but we have gotten very little words actually showing him doing any of those things, or what his thinking process was. We were only told that he did something, and to top it off when he is refered to by other characters, it is often in an unflatering light.

Skydancer: Same as above - Why aren't Luke thoughts being told in the books? Why have him state - 'Anakin died for a reason' in SBS and leave it at that. Maybe, it's a new way of writing where readers must make their own conclusion and scenes as an after fact. Some people obviously like to work their imagination, but I'm one of those who would like to have the writer's interpretation of the story not mine's.




I, for one, wish the writers would leave the blood and guts to my imagination and spend more time on characters' motivations and some backstory for the decisions that characters make.

For instance, the YJK mission to destroy the voxyn queen.
Yes there are any number of reasons that destroying the queen could be a blow to the Vong, however NONE were put forth by the author.
Just as there are several possible reasons for there not being any mature Jedi along with Jacen and Anakin at Centerpoint. Again, no reasons were given in the story.
I'm sure someone can come up with a logical reason for the Battle of Coruscant looking different in the end of SbS and the beginning of DJ.
But the author apparently doesn't give us a clue.

This sort of fan fix-up has been going on since the beginning of the NJO.

Why couldn't Luke sense that Mara was in trouble with Yoman Carr?
Why was Luke tired in Onslaught and Ruin?
Why did Kyp transmute his well known hatred of the Empire into a vigilante crusade against smugglers?
Why did Lando run out of cargo haulers and need to send Han and the Falcon?
Why is Viqi Shesh selling out her species (other than she thinks Tsavong Lah is kwel)?
Why did Talon Karrde let the ysalamari secret slip?

The list goes on and on.

Lots of minor and not so minor inconsistencies and oddities have occurred in the NJO that have to explained away by the fans rather than illuminated by the authors

Since when do the fans have to fill in the gaps?

Numerous reasons were thought up for the lack of Cilghal in VP, none by the author or editor (other than the author had never heard of the great Jedi healer)....but that one was officially fixed by Luceno in HT, so I guess that longer counts as the fans' job to fill in.

It would be nice if some of the other perplexities were cleared up by future authors.
It would have been nicer still if the authors of each book had developed the intricacies of their stories in the first place.

 

double post, sorry about that.

 

Raz927,

I don't think Luke, Han, or Leai would have approved of that mission, but they did because thats where the storyline had to go, and it made them look very bad to me.

I disagree. Throughout the course of the entire NJO, the authors have shown Han and Leia coming to accept that their children are growing up. If you go back and reread the part of SbS where they were discussing the mission you can see that Troy Denning specifically highlighted Han's internal struggle between protecting his family and allowing them to grow up and make their own choices.

Remember also that Anakin was as old in SbS as Leia was when she became a Senator and is significantly older than Padme was when she served as Queen of Naboo (leading people into battle). In the GFFA, people tend to grow up earlier. If you accept that Leia and Padme could hold significant leadership positions, then why can't Anakin?

There are things to be learned from intimate relationships, moving out of home, starting your first job etc. Things you learn about life, and things that would most certainly be tools in leading people.

Leia never had experiences like those when she was young (that we know of). She learned to be a leader by working with her adopted father, Bail Organa. He taught her through example how to lead others. Is it so unreasonable to believe that Leia would have taught her children about leadership the same way that she had been taught. Yet in ANH, we see that she has received a critical mission: delivering the Death Star plans.

Additionally, each of the Solo children has had experiences. They have each been apprenticed to an older Jedi, learning many skills and responsibilities. These are resources that Leia never had to prepare herself.

Yes, they were young. Yes, they were still learning to deal with experiences that they had had. You pointed out that Anakin and Jaina were still learning to deal with death. I know many people twice their ages who are still learning to deal with death. I am currently in college and I see many of my fellow students who still have trouble sorting out relationships. None of your points are exclusive to the young or inexperienced.

There is a precedent in Star Wars, dating back to the movies, of having young, inexperienced characters doing great things. Look at Luke, Leia, Kyp, Padme, Anakin Skywalker, Gavin and the Solo children (as far back as the JAT and Correllian Trilogy). I haven't seen too many people complaining about them (except about the Solo children). If The Solos are too young, then isn't Gavin too young to have flown with Rogue Squadron? Wasn't Luke too young to fly in Red Squadron? Wasn't Padme too young to be Queen?

Kimball Kinnison

 

Skydancer: Why indeed?? Wouldn't it be far better if this aspect of the Voxyn queen is explain in detail throughout the book. Instead, we have all these assumptions of what, who and why?

Yeah, and ANH should have explained Vader was Lukes dad.


Same as above - Why aren't Luke thoughts being told in the books?

I'm sorry, but that is crock. If that is so, why are many Kyp supporters disliking the way Luke gets his POV, but Kyp hadnt?


Why did Kyp transmute his well known hatred of the Empire into a vigilante crusade against smugglers?

Simple. He went to a wild unlawed area of space, and became law. Smugglers? That's just a coincedence its them.


Why did Lando run out of cargo haulers and need to send Han and the Falcon?

Maybe they were......HAULING OTHER CARGO


Why is Viqi Shesh selling out her species (other than she thinks Tsavong Lah is kwel)?

Let the story finish before complaining. Shes still alive and able to explain her tale


Why did Talon Karrde let the ysalamari secret slip?

Mistake


The list goes on and on.

Why did Lando suddenly use a slugthrower in HOT?

Why take a Verpine on an Imperial world, when a human slicer might have been more useful?

Why did Luke keep the academy on Yavin?

Why do Rancors, with their tough skin, wear armour on Dathomir?

Why do birds suddenly appear, every time you are near?


There's ALWAYS questions and unanswered points. Dont act as if the NJO should be different.


It would be nice if some of the other perplexities were cleared up by future authors

Maybe they will be. Maybe in fact, they are still open plotlines


It would have been nicer still if the authors of each book had developed the intricacies of their stories in the first place

See above


If The Solos are too young, then isn't Gavin too young to have flown with Rogue Squadron? Wasn't Luke too young to fly in Red Squadron? Wasn't Padme too young to be Queen?

Preach on

 

Kimball_Kinnison: If you accept that Leia and Padme could hold significant leadership positions, then why can't Anakin?

Leia was a junior Senator, not a major leader.
In the beginning of ANH, she is just another Rebel operative, the leaders are Mon Mothma and a bunch of guys with white hair.

As for Padme, I DON'T accept her story as a plausible one.
This is one of the problems I have with TPM, an elected 14 year old queen with no explanations of how so young a woman came to be elected queen.
I had hoped that Cloak of Deception would show something like Palpatine maneuvering the people of Naboo into electing someone he thought he could manipulate (and later getting a major surprise when she begins to see thru him.....I thought this would make a great side story in Anakin's eventual split with her before the twins are born) But Luceno just gave a line or two, the mere fact that she was elected.

ReaperFett, thanks for possible explanation of some things from the NJO that had me wondering. Now I'm wondering why, if a 19year old "stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf-herder " could come up with them so easily, professional authors couldn't.

Yes there are unexplained things in some of the Bantam books, but not nearly as many, and most of those do not have major plot points involved.

BTW, Vader being Luke's father was (a)not important to the plot of ANH and (b) not even decided on by Lucas at the time.
It was a GL afterthought that had no bearing on ANH.

 

I know that RF dealt with most of this stuff, but I just want to get my opinion in too.

Just as there are several possible reasons for there not being any mature Jedi along with Jacen and Anakin at Centerpoint.

Does that mean that you believe that Jacen and Anakin are not in anyway mature, Dewlanna Solo? They have been through more than most people twice their age, and yet people can?t seem to believe that they are mature enough to make their own decisions. I simply don?t believe that perspective to be at all accurate.

I'm sure someone can come up with a logical reason for the Battle of Coruscant looking different in the end of SbS and the beginning of DJ.

Maybe it was because it was told from the perspective of many different people. SbS didn?t have Kyp?s or Jaina?s perspective on what was going on at all. That might have been the difference. But I could be wrong. I?ve only read SbS once after all?

This sort of fan fix-up has been going on since the beginning of the NJO.

Don?t blame this on the NJO. This kind of ?fan fix-up? has been happening ever since the EU started. All of the ?continuity errors? are good examples.

Why couldn't Luke sense that Mara was in trouble with Yoman Carr?

Because she was sick, and focusing the Force inward to help heal herself. That would decrease her presence in the Force.

Why was Luke tired in Onslaught and Ruin?

Because Michael Stackpole paid too much attention to Zahn?s duology. But this has had a ?fan fix? for quite some time. I just can?t remember what it was?

Why did Kyp transmute his well known hatred of the Empire into a vigilante crusade against smugglers?

What does his hatred of the Empire have to do with him trying to protect interplanetary trade? It was an honorable pursuit, it just wasn?t as important as he thought it was.

Why did Lando run out of cargo haulers and need to send Han and the Falcon?

Being a little nit picky here, aren?t you? I think that RF got the best answer. And since I don?t have one other than his, go with his.

Why is Viqi Shesh selling out her species (other than she thinks Tsavong Lah is kwel)?[/

Power. Make a deal with the devil so that when you go to hell he?ll treat you nice. This is sort of self-explanatory, in my opinion.

Why did Talon Karrde let the ysalamari secret slip?

Because he knew that the people he was telling it to wouldn?t live long enough to let the Vong know. (the Vong still don?t know about the ysalamari)

Since when do the fans have to fill in the gaps?

Have you been reading Star Wars EU for very long? Why did Han and Leia get married and then get a divorce just before The Courtship of Princes Leia? Why was Anakin the electronic wiz kid all throughout the Bantam books and then suddenly became the puzzle wiz kid in JJK? These tings have never been explained except through fans. This isn?t something that is in any way new or unusual.

Edit:
Leia was a junior Senator, not a major leader.
In the beginning of ANH, she is just another Rebel operative, the leaders are Mon Mothma and a bunch of guys with white hair.

Mon Mothma was the leader of the Rebellion. Leia was the leader of one extremely important mission. That isn?t very different from Luke being the leader of the Jedi while Anakin is the leader of a very important mission.

As for Padme, I DON'T accept her story as a plausible one.

Sorry about that. It?s too bad when a Star Wars fan can?t accept the movies as being the basis for comparison. All of the books have been based on the movies, and if the movies aren?t acceptable, then there is no way that the books can be.

 

(the Vong still don?t know about the ysalamari)

I am not so sure about this- weren't there ysakamiri on the Exquisite Death? I believe they were there as food for the voxyn, but also to rob the Jedi captives they were about to receive, of their powers.

 

Wow! Too bad I only have a few minutes, as there are many, many things I would like to discuss. I'll just respond to a few things for right now:

First of all, to the person who suggested that I stop reading the SW books since I don't like them: maybe I'm a bigger fan than you are, but it's very hard to let go of a galaxy and characters that I've enjoyed for most of my life. Unfortunately, that galaxy is being destroyed in the NJO, and I barely recognize the characters as written, especially Luke and Mara. I keep reading in hopes that things will improve, and I'm participating in this thread on the slimmest of hopes that the 'powers that be' at Del Rey will notice and CARE that many of us are unhappy with Luke's characterizations and make some changes before it's too late, before the NJO story ends. We shouldn't have just ONE book with a good Luke portrayal either.

As for the second suggestion about alternatives to buying the books, I'm way ahead of you: the library, the Border's Cafe, and I are well-acquainted.

Someone wrote:
It had been my understanding early on that each book would spotlight one or two characters. In that respect, Vector Prime was Luke's book.

VECTOR PRIME was LUKE'S book????? You've got to be kidding? VECTOR PRIME was very balanced among all the main characters. Luke didn't stick out as the major character. I certainly didn't see this. If VP was Luke's one and only book, then Luke fans got the short end of the stick, just as Luke has gotten the short end of the stick throughout most of the NJO!

Just a quick comment:I think some of you have missed the point of this thread. I don't think anyone is saying that teenagers can't play major roles. What I'm saying, and I what I think most others are saying is that the teenagers shouldn't be the the only ones with good, heroic roles, the only ones who seem to have brains and all the ideas. The adult characters, and particularly LUke, have been taking a back seat to the younger characters throughout most of the NJO. They have been 'dumbed down' to elevate the younger characters. What I want is to read a book with a good, strong, heroic, intelligent portrayal of Luke Skywalker. I think it's time that Luke was given the 'spotlight' in a book. For me, at least, VP was not enough...not NEARLY enough!!!!!!

 

but also to rob the Jedi captives they were about to receive, of their powers.

Kier_Nimmion, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that. Read the part were they brought the ysalamari into the torture chamber with Anakin and Jaina again. There is never any indication that they are trying to use the ysalamari to rob the Jedi of their powers. (I may have only read the book once, but I read that small part very carefully)

Also, if the Vong had known about the ysalamari?s effect on Jedi, it would have been logical to assume that they would have been using them to robe the Jedi of their powers, whether it be during torture, or simply to better restrain them. This never happened in SbS.

 

Child of Winds and others who are expressing similar sentiments--

Why couldn't Del Rey please adult fans as well as teenage fans? That's what I object to.

Let's get this straight once and for all. For the record--

Del Rey is pleasing many adult fans, as well as many teenage fans!

Just because YOU aren't pleased does NOT mean that few adults are enjoying the series. Even in this forum, that appears to be the case. The last time I saw Jade's Fires' poll, the number of respondents over 25 who enjoyed the NJO exceeded those who did not enjoy the NJO. The same was true of younger adults (those between 18 and 24).

So PLEASE stop posting lines that make it sound as if all (or even nearly all) readers in a particular age group dislike the NJO. Simply because you and your friends happen to fall into that age group and don't like the NJO does not mean every Star Wars fan, or even most of them, in your age group share your preferences.