SOS - SON OF SKYWALKER : YOU (THE FANS) ARE MY ONLY HOPE!! SAVE ME... (Spoilers)

JediJSolo, thank you for more explanations that the authors didn't give us.
You and Fett, by supplying explanations for these things, really prove my point. The authors have been spending too much time (and page space) on repetitive descriptions of violence that is better left to the consumers' imagination as it was in the movies and the majority of the Bantam books.
They should have spent more time writing a complete story.

Does that mean that you believe that Jacen and Anakin are not in anyway mature, Dewlanna Solo?
Yes. I don't think a couple of teenagers, no matter what they have been thru, should be put in a position of making decisions that effect the lives of thousands without some backup. If there was a good reason for there not being an adult Jedi with them, I would have liked to have the author give me that reason.

(the Vong still don?t know about the ysalamari)
Opps.
Sorry, I asked about the wrong beastie.
I'm surprised Fett or someone didn't point out my error.
I meant the Vornskrs. Karrde never mentioned ysalamari, it's the the Force-hunting vornskrs that Karrde blabbed about. Your reasoning wouldn't hold up in this case. The Vong most certainly DO know about them.

Have you been reading Star Wars EU for very long? Why did Han and Leia get married and then get a divorce just before The Courtship of Princes Leia? Why was Anakin the electronic wiz kid all throughout the Bantam books and then suddenly became the puzzle wiz kid in JJK? These tings have never been explained except through fans. This isn?t something that is in any way new or unusual.
I've been reading SW EU for about 6 years.
H&L's marriage in the GoDV books? Since those books were written before LFL started keeping a (semi)tight reign on things (this started with the revival of SW novels when Zahn was asked to bring SW lit to an adult audience) I generally ignore the GoDV books. They are poorly written from both a Star Wars perspective and as SciFi. Not worthy of my concern.
As for Anakin changing: there IS no change. Technical geniuses, electronic wiz kids are very often puzzle wiz kids too. My own two wiz kids are as into puzzles as they are electronics.
Sorry, no explanations needed on either of these two things from authors or fans (One WOULD like to know who approved those Glove of Vader things in the first place, but the ways of George Lucas are beyond knowing)

Mon Mothma was the leader of the Rebellion. Leia was the leader of one extremely important mission. That isn?t very different from Luke being the leader of the Jedi while Anakin is the leader of a very important mission.
Leia is not the leader of the Death Star Plans mission, she is merely a Rebel agent with diplomatic immunity chosen to get the plans to the Rebel leaders. Bria Thoren was the leader of the mission to steal the plans, Leia just the courier. The turn of events that thrust her into a position beyond that are well presented in the movie and make perfect sense. But she is NOT sent out as the leader of an important mission.

Sorry about that. It?s too bad when a Star Wars fan can?t accept the movies as being the basis for comparison. All of the books have been based on the movies, and if the movies aren?t acceptable, then there is no way that the books can be.
I'll accept the original trilogy as the basis for the books, but I think GL lost his touch when he tried too hard to make TPM a commercial success.
Just a personal opinion, shared by many, disputed by others.

 

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JediSolo there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that. Read the part were they brought the ysalamari into the torture chamber

I also said I wasn't sure- meaning I could be right or I could be wrong. I made allowances either way.

 

Ysalamari aside, what possible reason could there be for Karrde telling about the vornskrs? Reaper Fett says Karrde just made a mistake. How very unlike Karrde to make such a stupid mistake.
I'm fairly sure that to further the story arc, the Vong needed to find out about the vornskrs.
Keyes knows that Karrde has 'tame' vornskrs, so he has Karrde mention them.
My only question is, did Keyes deliberately make Karrde look like a fool, or did he not know how out of character making such a slip would be for Karrde?

 

KK: You'd be amazed where the frienship first route can lead you. Love can easily seek you out when you're not expecting it!

Jedi Ben

 

-Vergere-,

Also not necessarily true. VP set the stage for the emergence of the newer generation. We knew, from the Solo brothers' lightsaber duel to the three Solos running the belt to the three in metaconcert when defending Lando's planet to Jacen & Jaina saving Danni, that a newer league of characters will rise from the obscurity of adolescence.

Yes, the Solo children were taking a larger role in the books. Not dominating however. I remember RAS commenting on the daunting task of having so many protagonists. And the Solos's were apprenticed to their Uncle and Aunt. The boys lightsaber duel was nothing more than typical teenage boy sparring -- I'm right, no I'm right. The running the belt thing and the later battle mind-meld confused me as to why the Solo kids stumbled upon this as something new when their Uncle and Aunt had experiences something similar 6 years earlier. Stackhpole continued the idea of apprenticeship/mentoring in his books. Anakin was sent off with Mara, then Luke. Jacen went with Luke. Jaina's mentor became Rogue Leader Gavin Darklighter. Jacen was paired with Ganner and Corran. For three books, the Solo kids had mentors and were paired off with them. Additionally, Obi-Wan spent as much of his youth training to be a Jedi as the Solo kids, was apprenticed to Qui-Gon for 12 years, and was 25 years old at the time of TPM. So, it is not beyond the realm of possibility to think that the Solo kids would continue to work with mentors or elder Jedi 'masters' to continue their training and work together on missions. This all changed with Luceno's book "Jedi Eclipse" where the two Solo boys went to Centerpoint without proper adult supervision.

Also incorrect. Their tutor - Ebrihim - was there.

Ah, yes. Ebrihim. The tutor from the Correlian Trilogy. He was so inconsequential in JE I forgot about him. You should read what I orginally said again however. I said: Where is the older mentoring Jedi, or a military leader who has the power to decide if Centerpoint should be used? Ebrihim is a pacifist. To use a borrow a favorite analogy from GAW, you don't put a pacifist in charge of the Department of Defense, just as you shouldn't put a pacifist in charge of mentoring the boys at Centerpoint, deciding if the station can become operational, then whether to use it or not.

But we're talking about Luke, right? And Luke cannot possibly manage to be everywhere at the same time to lend his expert advise to everyone at once, can he?

Not necessarily. I mentioned two other adult supervisors, an elder Jedi or a military leader. Whoa, you could send Kenth Hamner and accomplish both. However, this thread is about Luke. So, tell me, what exactly was Luke doing during JE? It would be one thing if we knew he was actively involved in lending his expert advice in another situation, but as I recall, Luke wasn't described doing anything back on Yavin4. Where was the wise Jedi Master, the one who destroyed the first Death Star, and helped plan the descruction of the second? Why wasn't Luke at Centerpoint wrestling with the ethical dilemma of where or when or if a weapon of mass descruction can be used during a time of war? This could have been a good exploration of Luke's struggle to reconcile his past (the war hero who destroyed the first Death Star) with the ongoing war against the Vong. That would have been an interesting look at Luke's character in the NJO. Instead, Luke is uninvolved on Yavin4, and that choice and dilemma was decided by a 16 and 17 year old.

The contention that the younger Solos are inept as of the end of YJK or they only serve to delineate the incompetence of the more experienced characters is equally patronizing. In a Star Wars galaxy where young characters are shown to emerge from obscurity again and again, we find earlier posts in this thread referring to those younger than Luke as "twirps" or "teeny boppers shoved down our throats" or Solo brats. Why is that exactly?

Perhaps because it is true, that the depictions of the Solo kids have

 

Your reasoning wouldn't hold up in this case.

Dewlanna Solo, I wouldn?t have tried to apply the same logic in that situation.

I generally ignore the GoDV books. They are poorly written from both a Star Wars perspective and as SciFi. Not worthy of my concern.

I would tend to agree, but they are canon, and they do leave that little detail unexplained.

As for Anakin changing: there IS no change. Technical geniuses, electronic wiz kids are very often puzzle wiz kids too.

Again, I would tend to agree with you. However, that was never stated in the books. So I ask you, why couldn?t the authors have come up with that explanation?

Sorry, no explanations needed on either of these two things from authors or fans.

On the contrary, I believe that they do need to be explained; just as you believe that all of these ?flaws? in the NJO need to be explained.

she is merely a Rebel agent with diplomatic immunity chosen to get the plans to the Rebel leaders.

That sounds an awful lot like being in charge of the transportation mission to me?

Bria Thoren was the leader of the mission to steal the plans, Leia just the courier.

Two separate missions regarding the same information.

But she is NOT sent out as the leader of an important mission.

Transporting the Death Star plans isn?t an important mission?!

Just a personal opinion, shared by many, disputed by others.

Opinion or not - shared by others or not ? the movies are still the basis for the books. Anything that happens in the books that can be justified by the movies is and has always been considered acceptable by the majority of EU fans. When an EU fan looses respect for the movies, that EU fan looses respect for the books, as your opinion of the NJO clearly shows.

Reaper Fett says Karrde just made a mistake. How very unlike Karrde to make such a stupid mistake.

Something in my gut tells me that they dealt with this in the book. I?d be most appreciative if someone could reread that section of Conquest, and confirm or deny this gut feeling of mine by sighting the page number.

 

AniSS,

You amuse me sometimes. Back when I first made that poll when the Like/Don't Like portion of the over 25 crowd was running neck and neck, you labored to point out how my poll was flawed and unscientific. And now you're using to justify your stance that more like than dislike? ? I would point out another basic flaw -- that those who don't like the NJO are more likely to not participate in the Lit forum.

Here's the one thing that the trends in the poll I find most interesting:

The biggest split among fans who like the NJO and dislike the NJO is among the 25 and older age group.

But, whatever.

 

JediJSolo,

Back when I was doing my Conquest Humorous Version, I made humor of the fact that they didn't really follow up on this much at all. I believe you will find the relevant passages in chapter 18, page 156, where Yal Phaath mentions that he's going off to supervise the shaping of creatures that can sense and hunt Jedi. I asked, and Yal Phaath was not mentioned in SBS, and most of the comments on the boards seem to favor Nen Yim as the shaper of the Voxyn.

But this incident, where Karrde reveals to the Peace Brigade that he has creatures that can sense and hunt Jedi is an example of how Karrde, who never gave away important information like this, was mischaracterized in Conquest. A dumbed down adult.

 

If I remember right, he had to gain their trust. Telling them that they could hunt Jedi down would do this IMO, especially when they saw them run off in pursuit. Why else would they let an outsider down? They had enough people

 

Just had a little look. Here is how I see it.


Karrde is outnumbered 20 to 4. As he notices, he is basically their hostage. In other words, they're ready to shoot. So, he needs to take them out. Shada could probably take a few out, but she'd fall, as would the remaining crew. So, he needs to ambush them. Best place? A cave or similar. But as the PB guy said, they'd already checked there. So what can he do? There is only one way down, and that is by giving a reason. Only logical one is Vorkskyr. And when the PBers think they find Jedi, the last thing they'll be watching is Karrde and his close combat expert friend. Scratch 20 PBers. Unfortunately, it didnt work out.


And remember, Karrde nearly got the Wild Karrde taken in TTT, when he was watching the Imps on Mykyr. Had Mara not been there, a mistake would have cost him dear.

 

Thanks RF!

 

Jades Fire--

Don't worry. You amuse me too. Imagine trying to depict the NJO Critics Club as something other than the bashing society it is! LOL!

Back when I first made that poll when the Like/Don't Like portion of the over 25 crowd was running neck and neck, you labored to point out how my poll was flawed and unscientific.

Actually, I labored to point out how every poll at TFN is unscientific, not just yours.

And now you're using to justify your stance that more like than dislike?

I was using your poll to support the point that I stated clearly in bold:

Del Rey is pleasing many adult fans, as well as many teenage fans!

That point was made in reply to some individuals who speak as if the NJO is only appealing to teenagers and not to adults. For disproving that claim, I only need an example that demonstrates many adults enjoy the NJO. Your poll suffices as evidence for that limited purpose.

I would point out another basic flaw -- that those who don't like the NJO are more likely to not participate in the Lit forum.

Perhaps. On the other hand, the TFN forums tend to attract only the most avid Star Wars fans anyway. It may well be that those who are most likely to dislike the NJO are a particular segment of the most avid fans. Hence, ANY poll here would overrepresent those fans, even if many had stopped participating in the Lit Forum because they don't like the NJO.

The biggest split among fans who like the NJO and dislike the NJO is among the 25 and older age group.

In your poll, that's true. But that only underscores my point that a significant number of older readers like the NJO just fine.

 

Well, this thread seems to have switched from being pro-Luke to Solo-brat-bashing, instead.

Again, Why do they need to still be apprentices, ala Obi-Wan in TPM, anymore than Luke did in ESB or RotJ? They've suddenly been forced to grow up quickly, just as Luke and Leia were in the films.

And I'd like someone to show me where the older character (not just the Jedi, but Han and Leia, too) are sending the three of them out to accomplish dangerous missions.

In SbS, yes, that's true. But it was stated clearly in the book that they were selected for this mission because the only way it could succeed was if their Vong guards were a bit lax, and that they wouldn't be if they had a group of older Jedi of whom they would be more afraid. This isn't "fan justification," it's explained right there in the book.

Centerpoint? Anakin went because he was the only one who could re-activate it (not sure why Jacen had to go). What was so unbelievable about them going? Were they going to be in danger aboard Centerpoint? Was Centerpoint infested with Vong?

Anakin ran off on his own to Yavin 4. No one told him to. Hmm, sounds like something a certain relative of his once did.

What are some of the other things these uberkinden have done that you would rather have seen the "grownups" do?

BTW, isn't Jaina serving in Rogue Squadron similar to being an apprentice, learning under Colonel Darklighter?

It had been my understanding early on that each book would spotlight one or two characters. In that respect, Vector Prime was Luke's book.

I have to disagree with part of that. Yes, some of the books have focused on one particular character, but my perception of who was spotlighted in each book is this:

VP: No one; all characters got about equal time, which made sense for the first book of the series.
DT: No one; again, all characters got pretty equal time, although, Stackpole being Stackpole, we of course got plenty of Corran Horn and Gavin Darklighter.
AoC: Han.
BP: Jacen.
EoV: Anakin.
SbS: No one, although the young Jedi strike team did get more time in the first half of the book than the older characters did.
DJ: Jaina.

While a different character rotated to the fore in each of these books, the other characters all got about equal time in each book. Now that all three Solo kids have had "their" book, I think we'll be seeing more "equal" time from this point on. In fact, with the next two books set to focus almost entirely on the original characters, we probably won't even be seeing much of Jacen or Jaina for awhile.

Trying to judge the NJO at this point is like trying to Judge a book or a movie halfway thru. Unfortunately it's inevitable; no one is going to wait four years before they start discussing it. It's just hard to rebut what the critics are saying, when there's still eight books to go. We can keep saying "don't worry, Luke's going to have a big role" 'til we're blue in the face, but until the story is finally finished, neither side can say that that's true or not.

 

Dewlanna Solo,

Leia was a junior Senator, not a major leader.

Even being a junior senator is a major leadership responsibility. The "junior" only refers to the fact that at least one other senator from your state/world has been there longer than you have. There are some junior senators in the US Senate who have been there for decades. (Think of how long Strom Thurman has been in the Senate. Anyone else from his state would STILL be a junior senator.)

As for Padme, I DON'T accept her story as a plausible one.

With all due respect, if you are not going to accept something from the movies, something which is undeniably canon, there is no argument that we can give you that you would accept. My point had been that there are clear precedents in Star Wars for young people holding positions of responsibility (sometimes with little to no experience). Look at Luke in ANH. He had never flown a starfighter before. He had a T-16, a shuttle, back home, but as any pilot will tell you, every type of plane/fighter is different. Yet he was able to jump in a cockpit with very little training to fly against the Death Star, and he was one of the few who survived.

Jedi Ben,

It worked for my sister. She wound up marrying her best friend, someone at whom she had never looked at romantically before he proposed to her.

Kimball Kinnison

 

JediJSolo: Again, I would tend to agree with you. However, that was never stated in the books. So I ask you, why couldn't the authors have come up with that explanation?
Because, as I said, there is no NEED for an explanation. I can't think of a single technologically involved whiz kid I know in real life who ISN'T a great puzzle solver. This is just another facet of the same personality.

When an EU fan looses respect for the movies, that EU fan looses respect for the books, as your opinion of the NJO clearly shows.
When the movies lose respect for their audience, yes, the quality of the books suffer.
Since TPM, very few of the books (NJO and prequel) are worthy of my respect.

Something in my gut tells me that they dealt with this in the book. I'd be most appreciative if someone could reread that section of Conquest, and confirm or deny this gut feeling of mine by sighting the page number.
I don't have my copy of Conquest around anymore, I've lent it out and don't want it back.
When I first read the passage in Conquest where Karrde spill the beans about the Vornskrs, I thought that by the end of the book we'd see some cleaver plan that Karrde had up his sleeve......I looked for in it Rebirth, and in SbS. There is none. Now perhaps Karrde DID have some plan that went terribly wrong, but we have not been given any information to that effect by the authors.
It was a dumb mistake that would have been believable coming from some outsider who knows about Vornskrs, but not from Karrde. If the man made mistakes of that magnitude, he'd have been dead before HttE starts.
I think it was just a mistake on the part of Keyes (and the editors) who didn't know what a sharp operator Karrde is.


ReaperFett A nice explanation. Should have been in the book, though.



Crow_T_Fett: Centerpoint? Anakin went because he was the only one who could re-activate it (not sure why Jacen had to go). What was so unbelievable about them going? Were they going to be in danger aboard Centerpoint? Was Centerpoint infested with Vong?
No one has a problem with Anakin being there, his presence is explained quite nicely. It is the lack of any adult Jedi or military leader that has us scratching our heads.
Jacen is there to further the story. No plot based reason given, of course.

 

Delanna Solo: ReaperFett A nice explanation. Should have been in the book, though.

Wasn?t it? RF, could you please site that page number for us?

Jacen is there to further the story. No plot based reason given, of course.

Jacen was there for the same reason he volunteered to be on the strike team in SbS. He wanted to keep an eye on Anakin. (-Vergere- knows more about that book than I do. He might be able to sight a page number for the evidence that supports that too.)

 

Dewlanna Solo:

No one has a problem with Anakin being there, his presence is explained quite nicely. It is the lack of any adult Jedi or military leader that has us scratching our heads.

I'm still not sure why an "adult" Jedi seems so necessary. You mean if Kenth Hamner was standing there looking over his shoulder that you suddenly have no problem with this scene?

And there were many NR military personnel there, along with Thrackan and his clowns. They were just never developed into distinct characters. But they were there.

 

He wanted to keep an eye on Anakin.
Oh goody. We have a 16 or 17 year old (who is struggling with his own moral dilemmas), "keeping an eye on" his not so much younger brother.
What they needed was an ADULT, a trustworthy adult with them.

As a parent, I find it unconscionable that the adults responsible for these teens well-being would send them into such a situation without a good mentor

I'm surprised that the NR military let it happen. Thracken Solo and a pacifist with a couple of teen Jedi? Where was someone like Wedge or Corran?

It just makes no sense in light of the rest of the SWU.
It only makes sense if the story is one of those middle school tales of conquering kids in a world of dense adults. Is that what the NJO is meant to be? That's sure how it seems to many of us.

 

Dewlanna Solo, Anakin was just there to activate it, to "turn it on." What about that is so difficult that it requires adult supervision?

This one just really has me confused...

 

AniSS

Don't worry. You amuse me too. Imagine trying to depict the NJO Critics Club as something other than the bashing society it is! LOL!

Oh, brother. More bashing of the NJOCC. You just can't get past it can you? You always gotta get in a shot at us, don't you. Why don't you stick to the issue at hand and stop bashing the NJOCC. I don't remember seeing anyone call the people who like the NJO names in here.

And I haven't see any instances where someone said that the NJO was not pleasing every adult fan. Child of Winds can say exactly what she's saying: why couldn't Del Rey please adult fans as well as teenage fans. If most of her friends are adults and most of them aren't happy with the NJO then she's entirely justified in saying what she's saying. From her point of view, it is perfectly justified. You've twisted what she's said by implying she's trying to say ALL or almost ALL when in fact she did not say those things.


Skydancer, we need a rallying cry!

 

Crow_T_Fett: I'm still not sure why an "adult" Jedi seems so necessary. You mean if Kenth Hamner was standing there looking over his shoulder that you suddenly have no problem with this scene?
If there had been adult there, do you think Jacen could have swayed Anakin so easily?
Do you think if there had been another Jedi there that Tracken Solo would have been able to take control of the weapon after Anakin activated it?

If the story demanded that half the Hapens were wiped out, there really should have been a more logical way of doing it. A way that wouldn't have so many fans saying "Wait a minute! What the heck is going on here?!?"
Having Jacen spout his philosphies without there being anyone to present another view, to have Thraken there, unguarded, to grab control was, imho, just an easy way out, a quick way of meeting the needs of the story arc.

Anakin was just there to activate it, to "turn it on." What about that is so difficult that it requires adult supervision?

Crow, it's NOT the turning on that requires an adult presence, it's not that the place is too dangerous for kids.
It's the moral dilemma that this young man finds himself in. His "uncle" is telling him one thing, his brother is telling him the opposite. He really should have had someone like Corran, or Kam, or even Stren to turn to, he shouldn't have had to try to make such a decision himself.

 

I can't think of a single technologically involved whiz kid I know in real life who ISN'T a great puzzle solver.

It was never stated in the book. Are we just to use our better judgment and assume that Anakin just has both skills? If so, why can?t you do the same with the ?problems? in the NJO, Dewlanna Solo?


This might not be what RF was referring too, but here is a direct quote from Karrde on page 84 of Conquest.

Look, Solusar. I had to find you. I couldn?t do it without the interference of those fools, and when I did find you I had to get rid of them. They thought I had an ysalamiri with me, that your Jedi powers would be blocked.

Karrde needed to find the Jedi, and he couldn?t do that without being accompanied by some members of the Peace Brigade. Letting them know about the vornskrs was necessary to make them believe that he knew where the Jedi were. If he hadn?t, they wouldn?t have believed him, and they wouldn?t have allowed him onto the planet in the first place.

We have a 16 or 17 year old (who is struggling with his own moral dilemmas), "keeping an eye on" his not so much younger brother.

That?s not relevant to my comment. I was directing it toward your accusation that he was there for no real reason. And truthfully, I wouldn't have advised Anakin any differently than Jacen did.

What they needed was an ADULT, a trustworthy adult with them.

Was their tutor not good enough for you? I would have thought that someone associated so closely with the academic system would have had a higher opinion of tutors.

As a parent, I find it unconscionable that the adults responsible for these teens well-being would send them into such a situation without a good mentor

Tutor! Pacifist or not, he?s definitely a responsible adult, and more than capable of advising his former students.

Thracken Solo and a pacifist with a couple of teen Jedi? Where was someone like Wedge or Corran?

I don?t know? Maybe fighting the war? And aren?t all real Jedi supposed to be pacifist?

 

RF, could you please site that page number for us?

aye aye skip. Chapter eight, Page eighty, comes the majority

 

Thanks again RF!

From pages 80 ? 81 in Conquest
[Karrde] ?Vornskrs sense the Force, and especially those creatures that use the Force. They are particularly suited for hunting Jedi?

[Maber Yeff] ?Yeah? Where can we get some? That would be useful in our line of work?

[Karrde] ?Alas, mine are the only tame ones in existence. You don?t want to meet a wild one, I promise you?

Please note that Karrde never tells them where to find the vornskrs. He only tells them as much as they need to know, so that they will trust him. That sounds very Karrde-like to me, and it doesn?t sound particularly foolish to me either.