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Discussion TLJ Space chase/ Crait plan discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by 3sm1r, Feb 1, 2018.

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  1. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I can't buy it with Hux because TLJ didn't show that. Hux didn't have a moment in which he thinks about how they could destroy the Resistance more quickly but he's enjoying this drag of a chase, so he'd rather wait 17 hours. There aren't any moments in which he engages with the Resistance so he can soak up their feelings of fear and hopelessness and mock them. He's not playing a psychological game with them.

    Instead, the film shows Hux astounded that the FO has "all this" (he motions around him) and can't destroy three puny Resistance ships.

    Basically Hux being an idiot because he's a bad guy, is the explanation. And it's both because TLJ is plot driven and because it is deliberately showing all the villain characters as idiots to make a point about villainy. In other words, characters are primarily servants of the plot and of the film's messaging.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  2. Cantina Regular

    Cantina Regular Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 24, 2016
    Hux kept saying they had the Resistance tied to the end of a string. This Chase was the FO victory lap. No one else in the galaxy opposed them. Why act out and look panicked about winning? You had like 20 battleships chasing one empty cruiser. The game was up, why act differently? Hux and the entire FO clearly see themselves are stronger, smarter and superior in every way - so they walk the walk.

    And it failed spectacularly
     
  3. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I didn't mind this, but every time the movie cut back to the slow moving chase, I kept wanting to say "Meanwhile in another movie" ala MST3K.


    I STILL LOVED THE MOVIE YOU GUYS
     
  4. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Hux bemoaning how they have to wait and showing frustration with that contradicts your argument, @Cantina Regular
     
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  5. Cantina Regular

    Cantina Regular Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 24, 2016
    His momentary frustration didn’t change his demeanor. They all still knew it was only a matter of time
     
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  6. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Yes, Hux was frustrated to have to wait, but he realised that he only had to be patient for a few hours and that victory was guaranteed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  7. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    ... Unless the Resistance starts the hyperdrive ramming early and starts flinging empty cruisers back at the First Order fleet, since there's apparently no real way to stop it in the film. Which again undermines the argument for Hux feeling confident in slowly following behind the Resistance, as it would mean that, logically, not only is a more desperate enemy more dangerous as you guys have pointed out, but that they're almost certainly within sticking distance with a devastating one hit kill attack. All because RJ didn't do any world building or lore exploitation to explain why that wouldn't work.

    And again, back to Hux's motivations, I don't believe Johnson was aiming for an arrogance explanation for Hux's lack of action; the character's language and personality during the chase seem to show that, and if we are running off the idea of him playing it safe, then it makes no sense to not be constantly ready in case of a hyperspace ram aimed at your freakishly valuable command ship in the Supremacy, or even for that ship to be present when it wasn't needed present to use its hyperspace tracking ability as seen in D'Qar.

    Now, we're going to eventually get some kind of explanation for the hyperspace trick only being pulled out now, and probably why it can't be used again in IX, but as it stands in the movie right now, that move adds yet another level of implausible reasoning to Hux's poorly written decision making paradigm.
     
  8. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    So, are we just going to ignore the fact that the First Order's strikecraft could have picked apart the Raddus in a matter of a few hours at most? Something that's revealed by the complete ease with which Ben destroys the entirety of the Raddus' hangar?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  9. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    That's actually addressed in the film. I forget the exact situation, but they call Kylo's strike force off, because they can no longer give them support. Something happens that suggests Kylo's group would be destroyed if they remained.
     
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  10. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I wasn't talking about Kylo's group. I was talking about the hundreds of First Order strikecraft that could have destroyed the Raddus utterly. If his group could take out almost all of the Resistance's command as well as the all of the fighters on the Raddus, the rest of the ship should have been no problem had they sent out more.
     
  11. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Yes, but that was the point of the dialogue that called back Kylo's group. I just can't remember what they said. They give an excuse as to why they can't send anymore fighters after the Resistance fleet. I thought the same thing the first time I saw the film, but on second viewing I caught the dialogue explaining why this didn't happen.
     
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  12. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Or maybe they did as much damage as they could. There were a handful of vulnerable spot and they were all hit. Nothing left for the TIEs to do.

    That doesn't seem unreasonable.
     
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  13. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    If we're supposing that the First Order has zero bomber craft that could be safely escorted to the Raddus by TIEs, maybe. If TIE/sfs are capable of destroying the bridge with zero preliminary fire, no concerted effort to take down the shields like was done to the Executor at Endor, and with only two missiles, than surely the engines are vulnerable to conventional Starfighter weapons as well. Otherwise you wouldn't have your bridge and therefore your most valuable personnel located in a part of the ship objectively more vulnerable than literally anywhere else on it.

    Plus, I believe modern military tactics still prefer to have a close-as-safely-possible visual reconnaissance, so again it doesn't make sense for four TIEs to so devastate the Resisatnce so quickly, then be determined as in too dangerous of a position to remain on target. Perhaps Kylo would be withdrawn because of his value, but the cost of regular Starfighter personnel to take down a capital ship you deem important enough to pursue with your command ship? It may be cruel arithmetic, but it's easily acceptable arithmetic, even if you're not an evil Empire.
     
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  14. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Ackbar says in the movie: concentrate shields on the back of the ship.

    This is why the only vulnerable part of the Raddus was on the bridge and the forward portion. And this is why an missile attack on the engines would not work. The movie even shows the shield deflecting blasts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  15. Praetor_Canis

    Praetor_Canis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Good gosh, haven’t you people ever watched a revolution themed “long march” movie before? Or any of the thousands of films preaching guerilla forces in WW2? What’s so hard to understand about that subplot? It’s a classic scenario in these kind of stories.
    Holdo CAN’T be nice to Poe after that fiasco he pulled with the bombers, she needs to maintain authority, it’s still a army, not some senate debate. those were good comrades that they lost to his impulsiveness. So many lives lost, and the most important thing is, they didn’t even manage to escape. Not only does he NOT deserve to know the plan, he should be confined to the brig and punished accordingly. As Poe’s character seems to show, 2nd generation revolutionaries are always the hardest to control.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  16. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I agree Poe belonged in the brig. However Holdo should have done something about crew morale. Keeping her plan a secret from everyone so they're all afraid they're gonna die the whole time, was just... bad.
     
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  17. Praetor_Canis

    Praetor_Canis Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Yeah, but if they’re really that afraid to die, then maybe they shouldn’t have joined the resistance in the first place. Death should be a norm for them to embrace at this point. And no matter what people think, you shouldn’t be debating leadership issues in the middle of a military operation. That should come during a respite, and by god these people need a good, long meeting.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  18. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    it's not about fear of death but that Holdo gives them no information about what's going on. She won't even say she has a plan. They are left in the dark, in the unknown, and that is scarier than death. It's just not good leadership, IMO.
     
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  19. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Sorry I just noticed I contradicted myself. But I mean they are all left in this suspense--will they live or die, what will happen, what's the plan, is this the end of the Resistance and the FO has won, do they just wait for hours until finally they too run out of fuel and are destroyed... It would be the longest 17 hours ever, trapped and waiting, and not knowing what will happen, not being able to DO anything about it, the helplessness... And, yes, for some, the hopelessness and fear would start clawing at them, behind it the blind panic and desperation and urge to fall to pure instinct: fight or flight.

    Holdo could have alleviated all of this by providing some leadership. That was actually what Poe understood and was trying to tell her when he demanded she tell them there is hope, just something they can fall back on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  20. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Also that goes completely against his characterization in TFA. There he's very much for taking the most direct/efficient way to get the job done. He is like "lets end it now, before it gets out of hand."

    So this idea that he "enjoys the thrill of the chase" comes completely out of nowhere in TLJ.
     
  21. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    That is asking for total obedience and the antithesis of Star Wars. Star Wars tells the Empire is bad because they are asking their soldiers to be obedient slaves following orders without question. If the orders are murdering innocent people or being sacrificed as fresh fodder for the enemy, don't question it the Empire will say. Orders are orders. Do it for the greater good, they'll say.

    Finn defected from the First Order because he cannot follow their immoral orders. He is treated as a hero instead of a traitor by the film. And yet, why is overthrowing a seemingly incompetent and unworkable leader who is most likely going to lead their group to their doom and replacing her with a more morale and open leader treated as a bad thing? It is because the film said that unworkable admiral is good?

    Maybe DJ has a point. The Resistance is no better than the First Order. This would have been a great angle to explore.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  22. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Really Poe's entire so-called "arc" in this movie is totally at odds with the message of SW.
     
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  23. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Except the message isn't to obey your superiors. It's to not be reckless.
     
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  24. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    IMO there is a misconception about Poe's arc. He doesn't learn to "blindly follow the authority", he just learns to be less impulsive and more reflective. Then of course we can still dislike the way it was shown on screen, but I think that this was the message of the movie.
     
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  25. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I can understand a plenty of intended messages. But that doesn't excuse the fact that the message came off as something else. Given how stubborn and unreasonable Holdo is in a time of life and death (as well as the fact she doesn't really learn anything from Poe himself), it really does feel like the message was "Obey you superiors without question even if they don't tell you why these orders matter."