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Discussion TLJ Space chase/ Crait plan discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by 3sm1r, Feb 1, 2018.

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  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Plus, the prolonged death of the Resistance has a greater chance of drawing out Skywalker.
     
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  2. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Finn saved his life and put himself in danger for going against the First Order. Even Leia talked about the Starkiller base plan in front of Finn (and everybody else) even when she never saw him before. Finn's actions made Poe and Leia trust in him
     
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  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Kylo Ren already tortured the whereabouts of the map fragment out of him. After that, it made no difference telling Finn, in order to explain why they are heading back to Jakuu instead of as far away as possible.
     
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  4. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I never thought of that. Maybe all that delaying was a provocation to lure Skywalker to Snoke?
     
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  5. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    yeah this actually might make sense. It can also be part of Snoke's game of toying with Kylo and Rey.

    Snoke is really pleased all movie, at least after his initial displeasure with Hux. He's acting like this is the day all his dreams come true and he probably wants to relish in it.
     
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  6. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    What you just wrote doesn't make much sense to me. The secrecy of the information lies in the fact that the FO is not supposed to know. Once Kylo knows, hiding the information to a random dude (which btw was not so "random" since he was rescuing Poe in that precise moment) is pointless.
    I really don't get the point you are trying to make. How can Kylo knowing be irrelevant?
     
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  7. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    The whereabouts of Luke Skywalker is information that would be valuable to many people beyond the FO and The Resistance. That map may be the single most valuable item in the galaxy at that moment. It's important to keep it a secret from EVERYONE. The fact that Kylo now knows doesn't mean that there's no reason to keep that info hidden from everyone else.

    Finn was not rescuing Poe. Finn was rescuing Finn. He needed a pilot. Poe is a pilot.
     
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  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    The FO have already put out an APB on BB-8 because he has the map. That's why it was so easy to track him to Nooma, and why he's identified for the FO by people on Takodona.
     
  9. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    This argument seems perfect to be put in the dictionary as an example of what a sophism is.
    Quite interesting that you even wrote it with a tone which appears to be teasing ("Poe is a pilot"... Thanks)
    Anyway, I don't buy at all your claim that Poe had any reason to be worried by what an enemy of the FO could do with an information the FO already had. But it's ok.
     
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  10. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Huh? They literally make it a point to inform the audience that Finn's motivation for "rescuing" Poe is that he actually just needs a pilot to get himself out of there.
     
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  11. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I think that Poe just knew he could trust Finn. I mean that's clear also when Finn shows up on D'Qar and Poe rushes to embrace him.

    In the beginning it was important to Poe to know why Finn was helping him. He didn't believe him when he said it was the right thing to do. But he was able to figure out it was because Finn needs a pilot and is trying to escape the FO. Finn is also really open emotionally and it's in a way that is difficult to feign. Finn is afraid and nervous as they are going through the hangar, trying to calm himself down. This isn't someone looking to benefit off of information, it's someone who needs out of the FO, desperately. The whole thing just doesn't read like Finn is this master manipulator who will try to get the map for himself or something.

    Finn's overall good will is just really easy to detect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  12. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    When did I say that his motivation was compassion?
    I just wrote that Finn rescued Poe, which sounds like an accurate statement to me, even if you write the word in quotation marks.

    Anyway, this is off topic and I think I made my position clear, so I won't reply any further on this issue.
     
  13. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    No, the movie showed that Finn was in conflict since their mission. He deciding to rescue Poe isn't only because he need a pilot, he is agaisnt FO's actions in Jakku (Kylo killing the villagers and get Poe to be tortured). Poe could be dead.

    FN-2187: This is a rescue, I'm helping you escape. Can you fly a TIE fighter?

    Finn asked if Poe can fly a TIE fighter already during the rescue (Finn already take Poe out of the room), not before it. They could find out other way to escape if Poe had say "no" (Finn knows basically nothing about Poe, just he saw Kylo taking him of Jakku and he knows about the torture)
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Finn did not rescue Poe because Finn was such a nice person.

    Finn was only thinking about himself, and Poe was a tool for his escape.
     
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  15. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Be nice if the movie bothered to mention/hint at that at all. But as it stands, it's yet another example of fans having to do Rian's job for him. Make up possible reasons in their heads to try and fill in the holes because the movie doesn't bother to.

    As it stands, it feels like Rian just didn't bother to pay attention to TFA's characterization (neither Hux nor Snoke were the types who liked to waste time playing around, quite the reverse in fact) and just wrote whatever he wanted to write.

    And as for Finn, it doesn't matter what his motives where. He still risked his neck regardless and since Poe had precisely ZERO other options for getting out of there alive, he didn't have the luxury of being picky and choosey at the time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  16. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    RJ gave input into the novelization, so it may have been his idea, but then perhaps he decided it wasn't necessary in the movie because the overall story is the same either way. I think that he just fell a bit on the side of under-telling and under-showing, but it wasn't that he didn't know what he thought was going on... it's just um absent from the film.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  17. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    The movie did show Snoke using the chase to torture Rey.
    He was very pleased with Hux's plan, and he was enjoying the whole situation a lot.

    As I just said above, nobody is having to do Rian's job for him.
    He did it quite well, and the message that Snoke was pleased with the chase was quite clear in the movie.
     
  18. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    flying right into Starkiller base to blow it up from the inside would be pretty hot headed.
     
  19. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    In novelization Hux was an idiot in the beginning because he didn't want to use TIEs in the attack against D'Qar, which delayed Canady, which cost the Dreadnought. Hux apparently wanted the spectacle of destroying the Resistance base. Making a show of things was his main motivation.
     
  20. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Not to mention Poe's portrayal in TFA couldn't possibly be considered a comprehensive expression of his character. He was completely 1-dimensional in TFA because he was just a small side character. Not every character gets an arc in every movie.
     
  21. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    I'd say brave rather than hot headed. If I remember well he was just following the orders.

    This is a fair point. I didn't feel that Poe was going out of character in TLJ, since in TFA the character was not yet established in a very clear way.
     
  22. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The stakes are also different. He’s without Leia, who he trusts, and rightfully feels like this could be the end of all he and his family (who were friends of the Skywalker family) spent their whole lives fighting for. He’s grown up around stories of heroes like the Rogue One crew who didn’t listen to superiors and did their own things because they felt they were right and ended up delivering crucial information that saved a ton of lives.
     
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  23. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Which is why his whole arc being essentially "do nothing and blindly follow orders and trust in authority even though they give you no reason to" is so poorly-conceived, in a film where the villains are a bunch of people who want blind obedience to authority without question.

    Also not backing down on the Hux thing either. Here's what he does in TFA:

    -Cannot break Poe through normal torture, go get Kylo to use his powers on him (even though Hux doesn't personally like Kylo).
    -Poe and Finn are escaping in a TIE, shoot it down immediately and then send a team to go find the crash site.
    -The Resistance is about to get their hands on the droid, well blow up The Republic (the biggest backer of The Resistance) and make them more vulnerable to attack.
    -Try to capture the droid if possible. But if not, at least destroy it so that at least your enemies don't get the map and find Skywalker.
    -The Resistance is about to get the map again, well we now know their location, so just blow them up as well.
    -Etc.

    Does that sound like the kind of guy who falls for a glorified "your momma" joke? No, he'd have blown Poe out of the sky instantly, especially if he knew it was Poe (who had escaped the FO once before AND blew up their big super-weapon). Does that sound like a guy who's sadistically toy with enemies and draw things out for no good reason, no.

    Again, I don't care how Rian tries to justify it, it doesn't line up. And if you're going to change characterization that much, there needs to be an explanation for it (same with Snoke for that matter).
     
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  24. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    There's no deceit around the final dig Poe gets in before the transmission ends. That's merely the end. The beginning is Poe pretending to have an important message for Hux. Hux assumes it's surrender. Poe delays things by pretending the communications aren't working well. It lasts maybe 15 seconds.

    It's in character for Poe as a guy who cracked jokes while under interrogation.
     
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  25. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Hux chased and managed to kill amost every single Resistance ship and soldiers.

    In fact, not a single Resistance ship exists. All they got is the Millennium Falcon, which was never a Resistance ship.

    And about 12 people.

    He is very effective in TLJ, no matter how dumb he looks. He still manages to win, even if he takes massive losses.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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