ST Space chase/ Crait plan discussion thread

I'm not saying you said the opposite. I'm just positing it as the facts of the matter. The fact that once the transports started being launched it would eventually become apparent to everyone (outwith Holdo's control) who hasn't been involved and that they would deduce the possible strategy is neither here nor there. Once he became aware, Poe was opposed to it and was compelled to leak the information over the comms. Poe's recent conduct and continued recalcitrance was deemed a security risk, and that assessment was vindicated. All deception plans are eventually discovered. Ideally, it would be after or as near to after it has been successfully executed. Telling as few people as possible (those that are entitled and actively need to know) until that time comes, and not stroking people's egos, is one of the keys to achieving that success.

She's his superior officer. She's not a politician. He's not entitled to constant pre-emptive reassurance that his superiors are fit for their job and that his interests are at the heart of what they are doing. Trust should be implicit in her rank and responsibility. Not in her demeanour.

Holdo admits her shared fondness for Poe with Leia. It's because he is as feisty in his role as a squadron leader Leia was when she was in command during the rebellion and how Holdo is acting in her place - which doesn't include any obligation or authentic military reason to explain herself to him.

 

It's not about obligations. It's about the smartest thing to do to avoid problems, like a mutiny. And I don't think we can say that she couldn't forsee it, since Poe basically said it esplicitly.
Also, she doesn't appear to be reluctant because of her position of power, considering that she spends a certain amount of time for her weird metaphors.

 

Poe is the problem if not telling him what there was no other practical reason to risk telling him prompts him to mutiny. He shouldn't be there if he cannot accept that.

And she most certainly should not give in to threats of mutiny.

It is the military. Not a social club.

 

Yes, Holdo has no obligation to tell Poe about her plan... just like a President has no obligation to actually listen to his adviser's advice.

Obligation or no obligation, it still doesn't change the fact that Holdo made a critical error by not telling Poe about her plan. A plan that would have shut up Poe's skepticism and make him fall in line. It is a stupid move on her part considering that refusing to tell him the plan only flamed his hotheaded nature, a nature that she was fully aware of, to take the natural course of action: Assume the worst and mutiny against the officer. And when you consider that Poe had a good chunk of the crew side with him and point their blasters at Holdo, that pretty much tells me that Holdo didn't tell them about the plan nor did anything to raise crew morale. That is an incompetent leader who deserved mutiny.

Poe gets off easily for me because the film decides to hammer into the audience's face that Holdo was right all along and Poe deserved the treatment he got for being a "hotheaded flyboy." Instead of letting the audience decide who was right and who was wrong, the film decides that Holdo was right despite her many, many flaws. And that takes me out of the movie.

 

Holdo being right does not in any way ameliorate Poe's reaction to her doing her job properly.

Her only "flaw" is that she was entirely justified.

 

But she didn't arrest him either. Don't know what "give in" means, but she should have been worried about that. Poe said "you are a coward and a traitor!". Hell, she could have at least started wondering whether maybe (!maybe!) some precautions were needed.
You see where my problem is? She was neither tough nor friendly. Her behavior feels just unnatural to me.

 

What it does is making it feel contrived and instead of redeeming the character, only made her come off as worse. A poorly done Severus Snape in the words of another critic.

The only reason why Holdo withheld the plans from Poe despite being everyone's best interest to know the plan (remember, the film never mentioned anything about a spy onboard the Raddus) is because the film wanted Holdo to appear as the evil, incompetent Resistance leader that Poe must replace to the save the day. The attempt of a switch and bait with the revelation that Holdo was good and right all along was poorly executed and in many ways, made me and others hate her even more because all of this could have been avoided had she told the plan. Defending her actions under "military protocol" is not going to help because Star Wars always had that "anti-obedience towards militaristic orders" message.

 

I think Poe was right that morale is important. Providing leadership is part of Holdo's job IMO. If most of the crew doesn't trust her, if morale is deteriorating, it's her job to notice and do something about it. The irony is that Poe could have helped her with that had they worked together.

Poe is wrong to go behind Holdo's back though and that cost most of the Resistance their lives.

Holdo also underestimated Poe since she didn't put him in the brig at any point.

Holdo's failure with Poe is actually her failure with the crew. He is one of them, who like most of them is faced with desperation and hopelessness and a new leader he doesn't trust.

 

The truth, and Poe's conduct, and her admission that it was her job and absolutely nothing personal, redeemed her fully.

It categorically is not in the best interest or even normal for everyone in the military to know the commander officer's plans. I don't know anything about a spy. I'm talking about what the film tells us (it's a military operation) and is standard military protocol.

It's only "bait and switch" because you are familiar with Poe as a character and are invested in him emotionally, rather than thinking about it from Holdo's perspective which is purely military and has nothing to do with emotions. Negative or otherwise.

Maybe Holdo should have either told him or she should have thrown him in the brig. But both scenarios would have been measures taken only because of what Poe might do, instead of expecting him to do what he is sworn to do. Which means giving Poe special treatment.
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No. His arc is about learning the consequences of being a complete asshat. Consequences that include a demotion and being removed from the circle-of-trust. Consequences like having 90% of the Resistance obliterated.

 

Fully agree with this.

Her actions were an attempt by the writers to drum up tension for a few scenes and then bait and switch the viewers to induce relief. Unfortunately the writers defied logic and basic human communication skills to achieve this goal, which undermines the entire scheme.

 

And this is why you will never convince me that Holdo is someone I should root for. I prefer a flawed commander with good intentions. A character who made mistakes and acknowledges she deserves some of the blame for the disaster that happened despite having the overall better plan vs someone who is shilled as being "always right along all" and that her condescending attitude towards Poe is "redeemed fully" because the film said so.

 

I never got the feeling that Holdo was supposed to be evil. I thought she was just supposed to be a military elitist, who was rude and thought Poe's sort were beneath her. I'm not sure where the whole evil thing is coming from.

 

Holdo taking the blame for Poe leaking intelligence to the FO would not make it true. Poe and Poe alone is responsible for that. He ultimately recognised this and tempered his conduct accordingly. Holdo is not one of the main characters. It's Poe's arc that we are concerned with. Incidentally, that arc is the inverse of the perceived arc of Holdo's character. That was the express purpose of this aspect of the story.

"I was wrong too" has never been a prerequisite for the audience's acceptance of a character. Conventionally, a character who appears to be in the wrong is always redeemed by the success of their tactics proving they had been right. It's meant to challenge perceptions Not walk you through the entire story without any deferred ambivalence.

Holdo's expression of regret that the situation required her to do nothing less or more than her duty to everyone in the convoy, is the only "flaw" that she is perhaps appropriate to make. Since it recognises the military pressures that dictate relationships between people that would otherwise be different.

If people have a personal requirement for balance and the need for every character to share an "I was equally wrong too" moment then that's their own personal requirement. It is not an established dramatic prerequisite that I've ever been aware of. Certainly not in a military context.

 

I'm seeing a lot of references to how things are supposed to be in the military. I spent 20 years in uniform, 8 deployments to combat zones, and hundreds of flights in combat zones, so I'd like to think I know a bit about how things actually work for military personnel in combat. Here's my perspective.

Was Holdo within her rights to make unilateral decisions and keep all the relevant facts and details to herself? Yes, rank has its privileges.

Is that the smartest way to get the best performance out of your people? Not by a long shot. People, whether they're military or not, need to know that their leaders are doing their best to take care of them as well as accomplish the mission. Soldiers will do their jobs and fight much harder when they know there is a plan for survival and hope for tomorrow. Holdo failed at that part of her job. Her little speech about hope you can't see was far too little and far too late. Maybe the pink-haired people in her culture respond well to her "leadership" style, but human beings don't.

I wonder if she got her rank by planning military operations, not by leading them. Maybe she has a brilliant tactical mind. But as a leader of people, she was way out of her depth.

 

They don't necessarily need to know what the plan is though. Paticularly if they play no active role in it and it's likely that they will undermine you if you don't agree with it. And she was following Leia's final orders in the event that she was out of it.

A total loss of discipline because of Holdo's reticence is not depicted in the movie. Her wrongness is defined solely by Poe's reaction to it and the influence he had on some of the other crew.

 

I think the issue is that when she determined that she couldn't tell them the plan for whatever reason, a substitute was needed. She didn't only not tell anyone the plan, but she offered no assurances, and ignored morale. And really ignoring morale is unwise because of things like the potential of mutiny. If her people are not with her (and this is perceptible) and she goes on acting as though this problem isn't happening, that's like burying her head in the sand. Though I suspect it's more that she didn't notice because she's not perceptive of these things naturally. So it would have helped to have someone working with her who is perceptive of these things and knows how to assure the masses and get them on board. Poe is a natural at that kind of thing.

But Holdo and Poe completely misread one another from the beginning. He wants to help her with the plan, which she requires no help with. She thinks he has nothing to offer, but he actually did in terms of providing leadership to the others.

 

From my recollection though, it was only Poe that was demanding assurances. His leadership, and his respect for it had been tainted by his insubordination in the dreadnought attack. If Holdo had been seen to give Poe special treatment in the wake of that, then it could have resulted in hers and Leia's authority being further undermined, and discipline and morale along with it.

She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. I don't think she should have expected Poe to mutiny though. Would Poe have mutinied if Leia had revived sooner? Would he have questioned her lack of disclosure or her strategy? Would Leia have taken Poe into her confidence immediately after rebuking and demoting him?

The root cause of the difficulties aboard the Raddus is Poe disobeying Leia at the beginning of the evacuation of D'Qar.

 

Right, but imagine if you were in that situation. There is no plan that you know of. All you know is that the FO is after you, and you're going to run out of fuel eventually. All you can do is wait. With an entire crew in this situation, what will happen to morale?

 

I think people generally forget that this is a factor that exists in military leadership, especially in situations as dire as this.

 

Ok, so Holdo was a poor leader compared to Leia. I can live with that criticism, in fact I suppose the movie forces us to make this comparison between both Leia and Holdo styles.

But I agree that this criticism is integral part of the character, and was done in the movie as designed. Her lack of motivation skills/whatever was not a fault of the filmmaker, instead was made on purpose as a character flaw.

There is a reason the movie wants us to side with Poe (I think this is quite clear that the movie wants us to side with him).

 

I mean I don't think that it's that Poe is innocent, Holdo guilty; or that it is the other way around. I think they failed, together.

I am still slightly more "blaming" of Poe since his plan got most of the Resistance killed. But the whole thing is a spectacular screw-up they made together, in a way.

 

This is the best way to look at it for my money.

 

I think that's right. Poe really should have followed her orders IMO.

 

Poe should have followed Holdo's orders, yes. And Holdo should have made an effort to show that her orders were worth following. There's plenty of blame to spread around on both sides.