ST Space chase/ Crait plan discussion thread

No doubt about that.
But I am not convinced by the rest of your post. This is a subplot in which the characters' motivations are the most important thing. So IMO it is crucial for us to have very clear ideas of how each character thinks and reacts to every event.
Holdo was supposed to understand the temper of Poe. Now, considering her behavior, if I had to write Holdo's lines I'd see two possibilities:
1) Holdo is too stubborn and proud and does not think that there is the need to share her plan with anybody.
2) Holdo is a very open kind of officer but she doesn't get the opportunity to explain her plan because everything is too fast and confused.

I would have been ok with both. But we had none. Just a weird mixture of the two things IMO, and after the movie we are forced to reconstruct in the forum what was not shown on screen.

I am not convinced. The secrecy of the plan could at most lie in the fact that they were going to leave with the transports, regardless of their direction. And it was not secret anymore since they were about to use them.
There is no need to speak privately or whatever. Before he said "tell us that you have a plan". The only good answer was: "yes I have". Instead, she started talking about the sun, almost implying that there was no plan at all. Then he said "you are a coward and a traitor!" OMG, can there be anything more dangerous than a soldier who accuses of treason the admiral? It was the right moment for her to do something in order to avoid the risk of... what actually happened.
However, few minutes later we see them talking again as if nothing happened.

 

I can get behind this, and it's a great point. I just wish it was framed that way in the story, instead of just expecting it all to reflect badly on Poe and Holdo to be lauded as the hero.

In a case of miscommunication, Holdo is just as much at fault as Poe - and there are no consequences to her character because of it.

 

That's why I said in the first interaction that I wasn't convinced the plan existed. She had literally just assumed command and was adapting to all of the new developments and likely formulating the plan. She was trying to project confidence and inspire the troops after just assuming command and he basically put her on the spot.

If you'll recall... Poe didn't have Rose and Finn's plan then either.

 

But she had several opportunities to tell the plan after she thought about it. She decided not to do it.

 

We know from C3PO that she tried to reach him privately afterward. For all we know she would have told him something then. He didn't try to arrange a meeting with her in private. That would have been the right approach with a Superior. Reach out. Tell D'Acy, "I've heard the Admiral was looking to speak with me? Is there a time we can speak in private?" And then allow for a response. Who knows where that could have lead. Instead, he stormed onto the bridge repeatedly like someone was in his X-Wing. Only it wasn't his X-Wing.

 

I really can't agree with you on this. Speak in private? That was the last possible moment to think in terms of etiquette or things like that. Secrecy? What secrecy? Everybody knew at that point that they were boarding the transports. The fact that the direction was Crait is secondary, in terms of secrecy. The existence itself of the escape with transports was the real secret issue. I like your passion, but on this topic I am difficult to persuade

 

Sorry... but a character arc and a plot that really work... don't make people discussing these kind of things.
That's the problem.

What was the purpose, of the wirter-director?
What he wanted us to think?
If people takes are so different... if we are forced to make assumptions to justify/understand
what happened on sreeen, that meens only... it doesn't work.

 

New to Star Wars, eh?

Welcome to the family!

 

We are not debating the nature of a mystic power call the Force.
We're trying to understand if Holdo believed Poe a spy or things like that to make a sense of... the plot.

We add, invent, image, things because clearly... something doesn't work.


That is the difference. A huge one.

 

Yeah. I disagree. I would bet 80% of people who watched the scene just accepted it at face value, enjoyed the drama, and that was that. The other 20% are online asking questions like that. Another 10% of that are convinced it's a giant deal. That's Star Wars fandom essentially around a lot of moments.

 

"accepted" being the key word...

That said, the simple truth is... They need an "excuse" to make the Holdo's manouvre possible. Because they need to end somehow whatever was happening in the Supremacy. And they need to move the resistance to crait, etc...

These are the "deep" reasons for Poe's plan with Rose and Finn and for Holdo not telling him the plan... Had she done... There was nothing for Finn to do in this movie, no
DJ's betrayl... No reason for kamikaze Holdo.
Etc...

But what are we supposed to think about the characters at the end of the movie?
That she's wise and he is
the leader to be. If that was the purpose, as it was, then the plot doesn't serve the purpose.

 

You haven't responded to this yet. The situations are different but they still both involve people in positions of authority that are hoping to achieve certain goals deciding not to tell another person something that might have helped make them achieve that goal easier.

You might be more willing to put in the work to explain their logic (which isn't on screen either) and try to work out your own head cannon for their reasoning but it's not on screen any more than Holdo's is and that's a HUGE moment in the OT and those two Jedi's goals there. And when Luke calls him on it later (a luxury that Luke gets that Poe won't with Holdo obviously) Ben basically just dances around it as though the question was really only about why he had lied initially to make him think that Vader had killed his father. He doesn't really explain why at any point since then, or specifically when they wanted him to stay and complete his training, and had seen his advances, that he didn't feel the need to tell him something as important as that.

 

I understand that in this forum there is a sort of dogma according to which the OT is simply perfect and we must take it as the Bible.
I do refuse this dogma and I will honestly answer to your legitimate question: I did not like that dialogue between Luke and Ben in ROTJ, when Ben says "I was right, in a certain sense". I find it a very goofy line indeed.
Also, you are perfectly right. The fact that they didn't tell him anything raises many unanswered questions. The only difference, for what it counts, is that I can actually imagine a way to make few little changes in the script of TLJ in order to improve the Holdo/Poe subplot.
On the other hand, Vader powerful revelation was only possible if Yoda and Ben left Luke go there without knowing anything.
So I am partially satisfied by working out an explanation for Yoda and Ben's behavior in ESB. I am less satisfied in doing the same thing here. But I realize that this is quite subjective.

 

Your honesty and open-mind are refreshing to the discussion. A lot of people would have just done the mental gymnastics for the OT scene as thought to say, "The OT is perfect and this is totally different!" because many people seem to dig in more when challenged, rather than truly contemplate the point the other person is trying to make.

I also see your point more through your honesty. I think what we're both essentially saying here is that both moments probably could have been polished up in their respective scripts a little better in retrospect and that the writers in both situations were basically just trying to make the scenes more dramatic and in doing so pushed some characters into not talking about some things for reasons that aren't particularly clear and that because those choices aren't particularly clear it's just up to us, as fans, to sort of work out our own head cannon to get on board with those choices or not. I choose to. You do not.

The stress and logistics of the situation, combining with the possibility that someone somewhere on the ship might be relaying info to the FO, along with her desire to speak to him privately that he missed and was only told about after by C3PO, combining with just petty ego-driven "I'm not telling you anything now if you're going to act like that" human nature from people in positions of authority who don't like being disrespected are how I see it in my mind and that works for me well enough.

 

I think we're supposed to see both Holdo and Poe as acting poorly. Neither side is entirely right nor entirely wrong. Poe is right to challenge the passive planning to escape when they're losing ships. And as we see the story unfold from his perspective and we like Poe, we're mean to sympathise with him and almost cheer when he decides to take action in the hangar. Holdo is right to not have to explain herself to a subordinate. It's less that they're being incompetent idiots and more than they are two personalities who don't know each other but both have ideas on how to proceed. From their point of views, given what they know and what they're seeing, their actions make sense.

I don't think the solution to the conflict is merely that Holdo just needs to share her plan. From Poe's point of view, it seems more about having a good plan that he likes and that appeals to his sensibilities. His response to the revelation of Crait isn't exactly the most positive.

Personally, I really like how we have conflict within the good guy camps. They're forced into a stressful situation which leads to mistakes, doubts and struggles. We never saw anything like this kind of depth before - aside I guess from the rebel alliance debate in Rogue One.

 

Agreed on all of this. Plus, Poe may have simply been more receptive to Crait once he learned his plan failed. I mean at that point he’s suddenly forced to see it more from their perspective. Prior to that he liked his plan more and sort of had tunnel vision on the FO losing their ability to track them and being able to use hyperspace and keep the Raddus and the remnants of the Fleet.

 

Cool, I agree with most of this. We can definitely say that Poe grows by the end of the film due to his poor actions and their negative consequences.

But I don't ever feel there's a point we are supposed to see Holdo as acting poorly - we might side with Poe at first since we know him and he's a 'good guy,' but by the end Holdo is the altruistic hero, when I don't think she should be seen that way.

And that's in itself difficult situation because if we are made to feel that Holdo is flawed due to her actions, it would then kind of undermine Poe's own struggle to a point.

And while I think the overall chase plot is weak, the struggle among the Resistance in a stressful situation definitely is an interesting point to see.

 

I don’t think it has to become a zero sum game like that between them in the end where only one can have any dirt on them or see the point of the other. It’s war. The entire Raddus subplot has grey to it by design. The crew is thrilled by the destruction of the Dreadnought and also believes in him when he thinks Holdo isn’t fit for command. It’s an examination of the with great power comes great responsibility concept from two very different military minds and personas colliding.

There’s not enough time for anyone to tell her about him and where she might have done better. She sort of comes to realize it as well by the end. She admires him and can see what Leia has liked about him even though he was a total pain in the butt for her. She knows they need people with his commitment to pull this comeback off and that the younger crew look up to him. Leia helps him see Holdo’s value and perspective.

EDIT: Also, they both crafted plans and if his had worked it would have been huge. BB9E though was the hero of the villains that day and stopped their plan right at the finish line. Since the plan he supported more didn’t work out he inevitably looks worse from that and since her plan helps keep them alive and she does down with the ship she does gain a boost. Prior to that both have issues but if his plan had worked out a lot would have been forgiven. That’s just the way it goes between competing ideas.

 

If the Falcon can arrive in close proximity of any arbitrary ship in the chase, why can't the FO do the same thing to reduce the distance with the Raddus?
This is almost good material for the plot hole thread, I'm afraid.

 

The Falcon arrived near the Supremacy because they knew where to go based on the tracking device that Rey and Leia had to track each other positions.

Remember, the Raddus was very close to the Supremacy.

 

We are already discussing about this stuff in the plot hole thread

 

Why bother bringing in more ships when you have your enemy cornered and running out fuel?

If I see a cockroach trapped and have a can of raid, why do I need a missile? Or another can? Or a can and a shoe?

And yes -- this implies I'm confident I can kill it on my own. Overconfident

 

Hux really wanted very bad to end it quickly, he even said that.

Anyway, my point is that while for naval ships a chase like this makes perfect sense, it looks a bit contrived in this other situation, because of the existence of hyperdrive. I recognize, though, that the chase was required for dramatic purposes.

 

Ummm --- doesn't she die?

Suicide by hyperspace -- in an effort to save the remaining transports? Maybe I didn't see it so much as a consequence because it was a sacrifice.

 

So is the Raddus supposed to be some sort of specialized anti-fighter capital ship that the First Order can't send its fighters near it? Because earlier on in the film we had the complete opposite situation, where the dreadnaught couldn't lay a finger on Poe's X-wing and had to send out its TIEs to go after him.