CT Special edition - worst and best changes

I was startled by SS's real life age. He never looked older than Obi-wan to me.

I get why George altered Anakin's force ghost in light of the entire saga, but a suggestion that it had to be done because of Shaw's real life age is absolutely absurd.

 

The biggest problem isn't even so much the change as it is most of those who vehemently defend it, never analyze the actual scene for what it is. They keep defending the explanation that GL gives instead and his rationale is always off the wall and most of the time doesn't reflect what happend in the movies. Every time he tries it ends up sounding worse and people don't realize that every time you use a GL quote to explain a scene it only confirms how poorly the scene/change was done. Good writing is about giving just enough while leaving things open for the audience to draw their own conclusion.

The best defense I've ever heard on this one was by a member in another thread specifically on this topic. Jedi of Baker Street wrote this one:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-scene-of-return-of-the-jedi.50030083/page-34

"I like Hayden at the end and it makes story sense to me. I believe they could choose to appear as they wished....Obi_Wan and Yoda appeared how Luke knew them but Anakin, hearing Luke's words "I am a Jedi like my father before me" chose to appear before Luke as he looked in his Jedi prime. A time in his life he felt proud of. A Jedi Knight. Return of the Jedi. I think it fits."

Now as much as I don't like the change, I thought that was fantastic and the only one that made me think it wasn't so bad.

But this weird obsession some have with defending anything that GL does and says instead of judging the actual art just baffles me.

 

I like it. I think the same thing only it's how Luke consciously or unconsciously chose to see the ghosts. Either way it works for me.

Watching the entire saga in a short period of time it's nice to see Hayden. Other times it's totally taken me out of the movie when I forget he's going to show up. I've watched Return of the Jedi a couple times in a theater with the ghost change. Hayden either just goes by or people get really upset by the change, which is sort of bummer to hear after seeing the movie.

 

I agree, I don't get why this line was changed.

 

Best changes:
All the extra Cloud city stuff
Yavin Battle
Shockwave effects on Alderaan/Death Star explosions
Extra Dewbacks searching for the droids in ANH
Millenium Falcon approaching Yavin
Landspeeder underside blur
Wampa beast
Slave I pursuing the Falcon
The extra hatch on the Falcon when Luke gets rescued
The herd of Bathas just before the Sarlacc scene

Worst changes
Han shot first. Ruins the 'western' feel to the scene.
Han meeting Jabba in docking bay 94. Yuk.
Sarlacc Pit monster. Sometimes less is more. They should have just made it look less... rubbery and left it at that.
All the extra nonsense at Mos Eisley
Jedi Rocks. If I wanted to watch muppets I'd watch their show or films.

Changes they should have made.
Re-do the Rancor beast.
Ditto the Tauntons (though for stop motion they were very good in parts)
Re do the Super Star Destroyer crashing into Death Star II
Re do the explosion of the Asteroid hitting one of the Star Destroyers in ESB
Re do the explosion/impact where the TIE fighter tries to squeeze through the tight gap in ESB

 

Ok - I just watched TESB De-specialized. I have no idea why they changed the "bring my shuttle" line. It sounds WAY, WAY better and doesn't interrupt the pacing of the scene. It's been awhile since I saw the original version and that was actually a worse change than I realized... the new crap totally interrupts the pacing

 

The scene for what it is very simply is what the storyteller wants in his story.

His explanation is THE explanation because it's his story.

Having someone who is clearly not and could not possibly be Anakin would make no sense at all for the complete story.

I never recall paying a single second of attention to the line until those people who complained about it did. I have to go back and remind myself what it is they miss.





The basic problem there though is the same as always. If the change was the other way around then they would be upset the line was in there. If Luke has screamed originally and it was taken out they'd want it in. If Vader has said "Nooo!" in Jedi originally and it had been taken out then they'd want it back it. If the change was from Han shoots second to first all the t-shirts would read :

GREEDO SHOOTS FIRST!

This is exactly the point. The basic premise is that Anakin in now healed from what he was as Vader.

But for those who insist on SS that he looks like does is fine for them but only that far. The end extension of that very easily applies to him also becoming his younger self especially since unlike Obi-Wan and Yoda his body doesn't disappear.

If someone is set against HC fine but the basic logic that he could completely works within what was done in the first place.

 

Um, Shaw is still in the freaking movie as Anakin! How can you say he could not possibly be Anakin... He's literally in the movie as him FIVE MINUTES EARLIER.

To be clear, I don't care about the ghost change.... I'm fine with it either way, but there's nothing weird about it being the guy they just showed under the helmet 5 minutes earlier.. but I could see how they'd show him as the guy from the PT also. Both versions I think can make sense from an audience perspective.


Your idea of the "basic problem" is just a silly attempt to dismiss all criticism. - while there are certainly some OOT purists from what I have seen most people are fine with many of the changes. Seriously, don't just make stuff up and pretend that people don't like things because they are changes. That's not generally the case.

I don't see most people complaining about the battle of yavin enhancements or the shots of the falcon leaving mos eisley. Most people don't complain about the wampa or the cloud city enhancements. Almost everyone likes the matte line cleanups, and other things along those lines. The Mos Eisley enhancement reactions are a bit more mixed... but even those have plenty of supporters. I think many like the new song at the end of ROTJ (I know I generally prefer it).

Heck - even though the "bring my shuttle" change is a pretty stupid change (all it does is mess up the pacing while adding a shot from ROTJ for no reason).... it's not something that bothers me THAT much. My reaction is more "yeah, that's dumb, but whatever... not a huge deal"

I bet if I counted all the individual changes I'd end up enjoying most of them. In fact even though I enjoy the Despecialized editions from time to time, my general go-to versions are the semi-specialized editions (and actually the TESB SE is pretty much fine, none of the changes are really annoying).

You'll notice that there are certain changes that come up over and over again as poorly viewed

- Han/Greedo
- Jabba in ANH
- Jedi Rocks
- Vader Noooooooo

There's a reason those come up over and over again and are generally very unpopular.



BTW - you did manage to post a great example of how crappy the color grading in the current SE release is

 

He still is in the movie as Anakin. The last of Anakin's physical life and a body that he leaves behind. Having him as the spiritual Anakin as well then never made any sense unless it's accepted that the spirit form a renewal of Anakin. With the complete story having the actual Anakin we know is the only way that it makes sense.

In the story as it's told it doesn't make as much sense though.

I think that is EXACTLY the case.

Now you are talking about a different set of people who have different criteria.

Yes because they are changes they dislike the most. If they weren't changes but the changed then there would be virtually no complaints about them.

I don't see how. The poor grading of the originals is never commented upon by those who like them.

Using those clips as comparison I'll take the SE every time. I doubt the original looks that bad though maybe the clip is from the DVD version.

 

Ok - I just watched ROTJ Despecialized (finishing up a big work project... so need something on one of my screens )

Jedi Rocks - yeah, that change is definitely awful. The original music is WAY better and fits the scene MUCH better (I actually kind of like it). The puppets aren't great, but they look way less out of place and aren't nearly as in your face.

Sarlacc - meh, it's fine without changes, but the scene's also not hurt by the changes so I think those changes were fine.

Vader Nooooooo - OMG, the scene is SO MUCH BETTER without it. Such great camerawork, physical acting and music. I think after watching it without the Nooo I would say that's the worse SE change period.

New ending song - Yub Nub is well..... not that good. I think that was definitely a good change as the new song is quite a bit better.

Force Ghosts - It actually looks fine without it.... I'm pretty much take it or leave it on this one... doesn't bother me either way.

 

My favorite Special Edition changes are:
- The Biggs scene on Yavin IV
- Additions to Cloud City
- Victory Celebration

My least favorites:
- Greedo shooting first
- Jedi Rocks

If we're talking about changes to the film in general, as opposed to the Special Editions in particular, I'd also add that Temuera Morrison as Boba Fett's voice is among my least favorites.

Undoubtedly some people would. Some people dislike changes to a movie on principle. Others become used to what they've always known and don't like the change. (And both of those things are fine).

On the other hand, as this thread shows, there are also plenty of people who like some changes and dislike others. A lot of people like the Victory Celebration better than the Ewok Celebration, for example. On the other hands, something like Greedo shooting first is pretty widely disliked. That suggests that not all of the people who dislike, say, Greedo shooting first are simply having a knee-jerk reaction against change.

 

Qui-Riv-Brid

Without going line by line if your post, I'll just reiterate that the mere suggestion of either Anakin making morre sense than the other will always be idiotic, no matter how many times you repeat the same ridiculous diatribe. You like HC, good for you. But if you think that SS "never made sense" then you are the only one on planet earth that was confused by it.

 

Come on - how in the world will the audience recognize him... it's been at least 5 minutes since they last saw him on screen LOL

 

I assure you I am not one of those people who obsessively defend everything GL does. But this is one of the changes I like. With the existence of the PT it has become not only logical but NECESSARY. There was no way anybody could have foreseen what young Anakin would end up looking like just in case prequels would be made, which in 1982 was probably not very likely. So they chose the only option available at that time and used the same actor who played old Vader. They couldn't have just picked some random young actor, even if he looked a lot like SS, because eventually, in case of prequels happening, many years would have passed and that same young actor could not have been used again due to age contradictions.
You can choose to not accept the PT at all, which is fine. But if you do accept it as part of the saga some inconsistencies with the OT had to be fixed. Lots of stuff was unnecessary, like that CGI Jabba in ANH, which I hate. But showing young Anakin as we know him as Force ghost was inevitable if the saga as a whole were to make any sense. There NEVER existed at any point in the saga history a character that looked like the original Anakin Force ghost. Why would the redeemed Vader choose to appear with a face he never had wearing clothes he never wore. He didn't want to appear as a "fixed" version of old Darth Vader but as Anakin, when he actually WAS still Anakin.

 

With all due respect, trying to make a case that it's now somehow "necessary" is completely absurd and relies on the assumption that not only do they get to choose how they want to be seen, but the assumption that you somehow know how they would choose to be seen. If you like HC ghost, you can make the case that he chose to be seen at a time in his life when he was most proud. If you like SS, you could make the case that he chose to show himself as a proud father to his son or that it immortalized the moment he redeemed himself. Or you could make the case of continuity that he has no choice and became whole at the age he died like Obi-wan and Yoda. Nothing is really established and any reason for either preference sounds as good or as bad as the other, but make no mistake it is all based on PREFERENCE. These desperate attempts to make it sound like SS ghost now all of a sudden "doesn't make sense" is utterly ridiculous - PT or no PT.

 

I thought about the "Bring my shuttle" line.

I do prefer Vader being a bit more elegant with his wording but If I remember, he is frustrated. So him stating something straight to the point works also.

Just depends on who heard first...

 

If that is the case then there really should be no problem at all with it. If anything then HC as Anakin is the clear choice because he is Anakin.

I don't get that. Above you just said that neither makes more sense than the other.

I like Anakin being Anakin. We know who that is.

That is two different things. Anyone can understand that this other person appearing beside Obi-Wan and Yoda is Anakin. Which makes the argument that some use that Luke should be the one to be confused by a younger Anakin really bizarre logic on their part. Luke would be confused by a young looking Anakin he never met as opposed to an old looking Anakin he also never met. The Anakin he met was the inside the shell of Darth Vader.

In terms of "sense" that is the case in the story. Anakin/Vader was always Obi-Wan's younger student not a peer of the same age. So an Anakin that was at least as old as Obi-Wan was always incorrect. That didn't matter at the time. Lucas wasn't even sure he wanted the ghosts at all or an Anakin one so by the time he decided to go with it the thought of casting yet another actor as opposed to using SS probably didn't even enter his mind. The actual human version of Anakin was not top of mind. SS was cast to be Vader unmasked with a withered old man face.

 

For those who like Hayden. Shaw is the clear choice for those who like him because he is the redeemed Anakin and fulfills the character arc more appropriately

Sure it does, just use your brain a little. You can make a perfectly reasonable case for either and your self-righteous attitude towards one as the "clear choice" is unequivocally false.

Yes, the Shaw Anakin from the award winning films rather than the straight to video alteration with HC.

Wow, you're still are confused by it. That's sad

Hmm, always incorrect huh? So Lucas was "incorrect" for over 2 decades? Incoherent nonsense as usual. And stop making things up.

It absolutely was on top of his mind. The entire point of the unmasking was to show the human version of Anakin. The man who became Anakin again thanks to his son. Everything built up to that epic moment. So sad that the true meaning of that scene still evades you after all these years.

 

This is veering off-topic... but I kind of feel Lucas's initial inclination to not have Anakin's ghost in the film AT ALL was the correct one.

I think having the last shot of Vader/Anakin be the pyre scene with Luke would have been much more poignant... I mean if you think about it... the whole "Darth Vader/Anakin goes to space heaven" thing is kind of messed up

 

Favorite change: The Battle of Yavin looks much better than in the OOT. Just a shame the sound effects drown out the great score.

Least favorite change: Vader's "No!" in ROTJ. Ruins the emotion of the scene completely for me.

 

I'd say that was the change where Lucas abandoned all subtlety in his efforts to make the SEs a downgrade in quality from the OOT.

 

Honestly, the 2011 Blu-Ray's just scream of Lucas changing things just for the sake of changing things. Just look at this change to AOTC.




Now tell me, how does rearranging the order of two scenes make this film better? Is this something he couldn't have done while editing the film back in 2002? Because all it seems to do is mess up the score of the scene.

 

But that's exactly what he's doing. How else to drive home the uselessness and generally stupid nature of the Special Editions?

 

Well, I always thought the idea behind the SE's back in '97 was to update the effects and add in things he never could before. In 2004, most of the changes he justified by saying that they were made to better connect the OT with the PT. But most of the Blu-Ray changes don't seem to be made for either reason. They are just changes made for the sake of change.

 

I'm pretty sure the Special Editions were always meant to show people why attempts to overwrite the original releases of historic films are a bad idea. See: Greedo shooting first, disappearing CGI windows in Cloud City, etc.

It's not a new idea, after all: George Lucas said as much in a speech to Congress in 1988. He just chose a way of illustrating it in practice that has much in common with Darth Sidious-style doublespeak.