Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Ki-Bara-Mundi, May 15, 2005.
I actually really like that as well. Nice one Mick, thats the theory I think ill stick with for now
I am actually warming to the idea that Plagus manipulated Anakin's birth. The Ep3 Visual Dictionary answered a few questions for me that the movie didn't.
"I think the idea on Plagus is pretty accurate, however the grand plan was to turn Anakin to the Dark Side, so Palpatine would need to Eventually lead the Jedi to Anakin, which i believe was one of the 2 reasons for the Blockade of Naboo."
I disagree. I think Plagus picked Tatooine for a reason - it was outside the Jedi's sphere of influence. Watto finds it amusing that Qui-Gonn would try for the mind trick. Obviously the Jedi haven't had many dealings with Toydarians - or else it would have been made common knowledge that they are immune to mind-influencing abilities. Tatooine is a remote dust-hole, where the Jedi never go, which would make it the perfect place to have a child like Anakin born and raised.
Now I'm sure Plagus intended to go and get the child after it was born and raise it himself, training the child in the ways of the Force, and able to raise an apprentice with complete subservience to the Master. Rather than have a typically power-hungry Sith apprentice who would seek to become the Master himself. Sidious somehow catches wind of the plan, learns what he can and kills Plagus - thinking he now knows everything his master did. Except, of course, the location of the child.
As I said before, Sidious creates the "character" of Palpatine and inserts himself into the political arena. On Coruscant he can easily keep tabs on the Jedi in private, and at the same time, he can publically walk around without raising suspicion. He knows that such a child will eventually gain the attention of the Jedi. Even if he has to wait for the child to reach adulthood, such a strong Force-Adept would end up at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant eventually, and then he would be able to strike. As luck would have it, the Jedi find young Anakin much sooner than anticipated. And fotunately the child has made emotional ties to his mother back on Tatooine and the young Queen Amidala.
"Then came the Clone Army, I bet Dooku ordered the army (claiming he was Sifo Dias, What, they gotta show ID?) And then killed Sifo Dias to cover his tracks, Hired Jango (PS2 Game: Bounty Hunter) and Continued to Plot for War with Palps. Being the Leader on BOTH sides meant the dark side would eventually triumph. "
ROTS Vis. Dictionary breaks it down like this. Sifo Dias made plans for a clone army - acting outside the Jedi Council. Presumably, he could see their power diminishing and sought to act on it. I believe he intended to clone a Jedi, possibly himself, as the Kaminoans had wanted to see the effects of cloning high midi-chlorian count DNA. Instead, Dooku kills Sifo Dias and finds out about the plan. He shares the details with his new master, Sidious, and they alter what they need to. Dooku gets Jango to donate his DNA - perhaps Sidious feared that Jedi clones would be harder to control, or more likely to turn on Order 66, or if we go by the EU, then the clones would go mad.
"Then came the events of Episode 3, Palps playing on Anakin, turning him after throwing his duel with Mace, making it seem the Jedi are evil and playing on Anakins suspicions"
I don't think Sidious threw the fight with Mace. I genuinely think Mace had him on the ropes. Ultimately Sidious is banking on Anakin intervening in order to survive. Sidious knows how powerful Anakin is - he says it to Yoda just before their duel. Sidious believes that the Dark Side is stronger, more powerful, and that it will truimph over the Light Side. He dispatches three Jedi fairly quickly, but Mace is fighting with the strength and power of the Dark Side, something which Sidious is not prepared for. I think we can say that at the point where Anakin steps in to save Sidious, Mace has actually turned from the Light Side.
"and Obi Wan got lucky (Incidentally, I have $20 that says we will see an EU book where Cody comes after him on Tatooine and they fight)."
I heard there was supposed to be a fight
Well I saw it Friday night - in a quaint little theatre in Hornsby and to be honest its the way to see the movie - feels like I'm way back in time a long time ago!
Thankfully the 2nd viewing was a much less intense effort on my part - I was relaxed amongst some good friends who weren't Star Wars fanatics and that turned out to be the perfect tonic to watch the final episode in the right frame of mind.
I realised that I'd let one scene (the lord vader rise one) skew my feelings towards the film and although it still had many flaws in my view based mostly about the ease in which Anakin turned and the fact he didn't go committed evil (but could still act good to padme) like I thought he should have.
But to the film!
I love love love the opening chapter - it is close to the most entertaining Star Wars chapter across all six films perhaps only rivaled by the last act in Jedi when the Land/Space/Throneroom combo rocked the screen. My favourite moment in that scene was actually the look on Dooku's face when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him. The Sith Apprentice had been betrayed and he hadn't seen it coming which was the best part. Having said that Dooku did get beaten pretty easily by Anakin in the end, but any lightsabre fight has gotta end sometime I guess.
I'll no doubt get more indepth in coming posts but midway through this post I got distracted and will be back for more!
Gotta disagree on Mace going 'Dark' to beat Sidious.
Windu and Yoda were the pillars of the Jedi Order, Sidious knew he had to find a way to take both of them down because he couldn't do it himself if he faced both of them. He was more of a chance one on one but Windu proved otherwise in their fight, (thought: if anything the appearance of Anakin took away Windu's ability to arrest Palpatine because he still didn't trust that Anakin was on the Jedi's side. It was then in this moment of advantage when Sidious' lightning attack ceased - and I believe it was the use of the lightning with such anger that deformed him more than the deflection off the lightsabre. So when the attack ended Windu saw that Palpatine was trying to trick Anakin so he decided he had to kill the Emperor then. Had Anakin not turned up we may have seen Mace try and take him away, I think there's no doubt Anakin's confusion influenced Windu's change in tact.).
So by getting the clones to attack Kashyyyk he figured Yoda would go due to the dwindling and stretched numbers of the Jedi, because as Yoda says he has good relations with the wookiees. And he seperates Windu and Yoda - genius.
So in answer to the assertion Mace goes to the Dark Side - I disagree, he is #2 on the jedi master list I think he was just powerful enough to beat the Emperor.
Yeah, I agree. I think Mace was acting for the Force and not for the Council.
Just a little thing that I've been piecing together in my mind...
Palpy decided to be a great Sith Lord and gather as much power as possible. The Plagius creating Anakin can fit in here if you wish (I'm still undecided) and Palpy would then decide to make him his ultimate apprentice (only a turned light side Jedi would not want to fully usurp Palpy's power). Anyway, the path to ultimate galactic rule follows thusly:
Step 1: Become a senator to get close to the Jedi Council and do sith training at TAFE at night.
Step 2: Take an apprentice to practice on and then send to his death to show the Jedi Council there is a Sith Lord in their midst - it's the whole decoy thing, they're gonna sense a dark side plot so why not give them a fall guy.
Step 3: Get a Jedi to create a clone army which Palpy can use later to fuel his intergalactic domination. This can be done using diplomacy (which he masters as we can see with the tricks he uses on Anakin).
Step 4: Kill the Jedi (Sifa Diaz) and erase the computers so that noone knows about the army he has created. Cook clones on high for 10-15 years and when the timer goes off start a war.
Step 5: Get a high level Sith Lord to start covert plans to take over the Jedi (Count Dooku - the ultimate Fall Guy).
Step 6: Once those plans are in full swing the Jedi Council will fully suspect a Dark Side plot and search for Dooku. When they find him, stage an abduction and get Anakin to rescue him (notice Dooku's lack of attack on Anakin but full on attack on Obi Wan). When he's rescued, get Anakin to kill Dooku - easy to explain as Anakin doing the right thing, but start the ball rolling to the dark side (notice Dooku's "but this wasn't part of the plan" gape)
Step 7: Use Anakin's sucessful rescue to raise his profile in the council and give Palpy a stooly. Then convince Anakin that he isn't trusted and destroy his faith in the Jedi Council.
Step 8: Set up Anakin to reveal the true sith lord knowing that he will feel he's doing the right thing, but count on him to still want to come in and take the glory hopefully in time to stop him being killed by Mace who he knows he may not be able to beat.
Step 9: Let Anakin assist in killing Mace and thereby see the injustice in the Council and change his "certain point of view"
Step 10: Take Anakin as an apprentice, let him get the living daylights get beaten out of him and then save him so that Anakin owes him his life.
Step 11: Use Vader as right hand man to do the dirty work and if another candidate comes along for a new apprentice (I don't know, maybe Vader's kids) continue the process. Make intergalactic domination a family business.
Seems pretty solid to me. I've missed out a few of the subtleties like getting Anakin to rid himself of his friends and attachments like Obi Wan and Padme and make him think that they turned on him. More ammo for the dark side choice.
But, I love it. If that's the right take on it, I love the fact that he has been scheming all along and Obi Wan has been warning him about politians for just as long. Love it.
Prodigiousman... "was that a poorly acted - physically - frankenstine effort or what!!!"
Imagine if you took the first step after being re-constructed... I don't think it was a poor effort at all but rather "very much like the old Frankenstein movies" that we have come to know.
That is exactly how one would attempt the first step. It is no accident the efforts you talk about are ment to look like Frankenstein.
Darth Vader is meant to be the baddest, meanest, most horrible, darkest space man ever created... as was Frankenstein! the nastiest monster of its time.
What caught my eye was Anakin's attempt to deal with what he thought was love. Don't forget he did not have a role model in this area... only the lonely old Jedi Masters. Where are the Jedi's girlfriends, their wives, their lovers?
The only one to ever to suggest anything that might help his plight in loving Padme was the Sith Lord, Darth Sidious who was there for Anakin... where was Yoda? What was the advice Yoda gave?
As the saying goes, you must learn to love before you can hate... and when Lord Vader yelled "I hate you (Obi-wan)" it was the tremendous hate and the power of the force from that hate that kept him alive until he was rescued.
The Sith Lord, according to Anakin, was his only choice.
The movie did very well in portraying the story of love and hate, conflict, indecisions, confussion and loss... and above all, suffering... and because of this, I recommend it... as being the best of the 6 movies.
All these folks who fell for the Plagus story ... they're as gullible as Anakin. (But just goes to show how good Palpatine is, that he's not only convinced Anakin, but a part of the audience as well)
Theory: Plagus was Palpatine's master. Plagus or Palpatine conceived Anakin via the dark side.
"[Plagus] could influence the midiclorians to save life ... He could even keep the ones he cared about from dying ... He taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep."
If true, Palpatine not only knows how to conceive life, but also how to save people from dying.
He claims to have this power: "I have the power to save the one you love..."
But immediately contradicts himself: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret."
The secret he already has, and promised to Anakin? Yet now he claims to have no knowledge of it?
But then ...
"Go the Jedi temple ... only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme ..."
Every second utterance out of Palpatine's mouth contradicts the one before it. He claims to have this power, then doesn't, then does, then doesn't ...
Is he telling the truth, or is he lying?
I'll leave that to Yoda ...
Yoda: Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.
If you believe the Plagueis story, I have a nice Jedi temple for sale, going cheap ...
Until George Lucas had a definitive answer on if the Plagus story is true, I could take it either way. I like the idea of it being a lie, that it was tailored to suit Anakin's past. But seeing as how the concept of midichlorians was introduced for a reason, it seems to support the Plagus story by giving it some weight.
please don't tell me you are going to wait for George to provide an answer to that.......I don't think I could wait another 30 years for a Pre-Pre-quel (Episodes -3, -2 and -1)
Well, he could now release Episode Pi...
Oh how nerdy.
I meant in an interview or something like that.
Wow, some really good thoughts here. I do like the account proposed by MSE6. It ties into the ROTJ account of the Force well.
I more or less agree with Matt on the Palpatine/Windu fight, except that Palpatine seems to have deliberately left Windu till last. Thus, Palpatine appears to have intended for Windu to survive longer, but in turn underestimated the Jedi's power. Given Palpatine's reaction to Yoda later, I actually think the Dark Lord believed he could best Windu.
I'm not so comfortable with seeing Windu as having 'gone' to the Dark Side - but he was definitely close. He was perhaps the first to realise the magnitude of the danger posed by Palpatine and could conceivably have been acting with democracy in mind. However, I still like D's insightful comment that if Windu had been a little more humble and taken Anakin with them initially, the situation Palpatine contrived which lead to Anakin's intervention against the Jedi, may not have happened. I am working under Padme's assumption that Anakin has some intrinsic good within him. If Anakin had seen Palpatine attack first, kill three high ranking Jedi and be willing to raise a sabre to Anakin himself if he sided with Windu, then I could see Anakin and Windu killing Palpatine there and then.
Regardless of one's view on Darth Plagueous, there seems to be a definite point in Jedi where Vader, in sacrificing himself for his son, redeems Anakin and brings balance to the Force. This makes no sense unless Anakin is the Chosen One. I don't disagree that a scenario such as that proposed by Matt and Keith above could be theoretically possible. It is certainly in line with the various things we know about Palpatine (which isn't much if you actually think about it). However, there are some problems with this.
Even if we grant that Plagueous existed (doubtful, considering Palpatine's penchant for telling convenient lies and MSE6's observation that Palpatine seemed to be changing tack with that part of the conversation to Anakin) and could manipulate the force as implied (metaphysically questionable, given that the Force runs through midichlorians not against them), there seem to be no good reasons for him creating Anakin in the manner required by fact. For a start, he already seems to have had an apprentice, and the Sith rarely have two. Secondly, there would be no reason to have Anakin born on Tatooine when Plagueous could have raised him from birth (the idea being to create an apprentice who would not rebel). Finally, this supposedly wise Darth Plagueous would be foolish to deliberately create, and intend to train, an apprentice with greater potential than himself.
Just to provide one positive argument for Anakin as the Chosen One, I suggest the following account (heavily borrowing from D again):
-Pre-TPM: The Jedi have grown in influence and arrogance, believing their ways right above all others. They serve, but specifically their decree of the good. Darth Sidious, a lone Sith Lord, trains an apprentice, Maul, in secret.
The Force is not in balance.
-ROTS: Anakin spearheads the slaughter of the Jedi. Some Jedi survive, notably Masters Yoda and Kenobi. Having outlived Maul and Dooku, Sidious is once again apprenticeless - a lone Sith Lord.
The Force is not in balance.
-ROTS to Post-ROTS: Anakin becomes Vader and hunts down the remaining Jedi. Only Yoda and Kenobi remain. Two Jedi, two Sith.
The Force is closer to being in balance.
-Post-ROTS: Yoda and Kenobi remain in exile. Sidious, as the Emperor, grows in power and the Dark Side pervades the galaxy.
The Force is not in balance.
-ANH to ROTJ: Kenobi dies. Yoda dies. Two Sith, no Jedi.
The Force is definitely not in balance.
-ROTJ: Vader sacrifices himself for Luke, Anakin is redeemed and the Emperor dies. No Jedi, no Sith. All that remains is Luke, and to a lesser extend Leia. Luke has been more or less trained to be a weapon of the Force, neither living solely for conflict like a Sith, nor solely for creed like a Jedi.
The Force is in balance.
But seeing as how the concept of midichlorians was introduced for a reason, it seems to support the Plagus story by giving it some weight.
Yes, there was a reason: the force conceived anakin.
Midiclorians are a manifestation of the force, which is the deity in the starwars universe.
To plagiarise myself:
Star Wars is a modern myth modelled on the teachings of Joseph Campbell. Lucas has said so, and Campbell has said so.
And so it follows that Anakin's origins, as a miraculous conception, are perfectly in keeping with mythology and Campbell's ideas.
The conception or the birth or the events immediately following the birth (or all three) of the hero of myth are miraculous or unusual - for all humans birth is the first trauma and the first miracle of life.
(SOME) VIRGIN BIRTHS IN MYTHOLOGY:
* Helen (Greek), who became Nemesis, was fathered by Zeus, who appeared to her mother in the form of a swan.
* Buddha (Indian) was fathered by the deity, who appeared to his mother in the form of a white elephant
* Quetzalcoatl (Toltec & Aztec)
* Zarathustra (Persian)
* Siegfried (German/Norse)
* Maui (Polynesian)
* Attis (Phrygian) - fathered by the deity in the form of a pomegrante (and you thought midiclorians were a crazy idea?)
* Water Jar Boy (Tewa Indian) - who is fathered by the deity in the form of a piece of clay (midiclorians are starting sound like a good idea, huh?)
* Kutoyis (Blackfoot Indian) - was fathered by the deity in the form of a blood clot (which is getting closer to the midis...)
* Huitzilopochtli (Aztec) - fathered by the deity in the form of a ball of feathers
* Lituolone (Bantu African) - fathered by the deity, his mother an old woman.
* Horus (Egyptian)
* Persephone & Dionysos (Greek)
* Adonis (Babylonian/Greek)
* Anakin Skywalker - fathered by the deity (The Force) in the form of midiclorians.
Anakin was conceived by the force, for the force, at the will of the force.
Palpatine suggesting that he had a hand in it is just a delusion of grandeur .... the evil one plays no part in the creation of the saviour. It plays a part in the decisions of the saviour, but not the creation.
I just read that Water Jar Boy as Jar Jar Boy.
Brought on some interesting images..
Water jar boy isnt light years better....
And while Im low on time right now, I just wanted to chip in and say I also disagree on Mace going bad. But then i never bough the whole idea that he was more balanced in the force...sort of a grey Jedi.
I agree with Scream_Man... I have not bought that idea at all... and besides, we are only assuming that he was about to kill the Sith Lord.
If Anakin had not interfered, he might have just kicked his ass and arrested him... his initial intentions were to arrest him, and I believe he would have done just that.
He would not have gone to the trouble of attempting an arrest if he had no intention of carrying it out.
Mace was just acting on impulse, after a fight like that one although somewhat irrational, he would have come to his sences...
Don't know if this has been mentioned before but we don't actually see Mace die, he has an arm chopped off, some lightning and falls out the window but in my opinion there's a possibility he survived and might appear in a book or the new series or whatever again.
"Mace ..... out of the window to his death."
Excerpt from the RotS script.
He's dead, and he looked quite lifeless as he was flung out of the window.
I certainly hope he doesn't come back in any book or comic.
I certainly hope he doesn't come back in any book or comic.
Ala Emperor Palpatine...reborn twice. As if once wasn't enough...
"It was the will of the force that I landed in the back of that air taxi. I'm certain. The driver delivered me to a medical facility, where I was nursed back to health. My clothes were burned, my face disfigured, my identity lost. Mace Windu died that day." He sighed. "After many years of surgery, arduous rehabilitation, and meditation, I was finally able to walk the streets of coruscant again. And on that day, Lando Calrissian was born ..."
Extract from Mathew Stover's upcoming, "Dark Jedi Night."
You guys are quoting me left right and centre!
I'll get back to you soon about my thoughts and take on a few of the key issues in ROTS.
It's really hard to write..
I really hope, Ozhaggis, that you just made that up - or that it's entirely out of context.
Writing out all the conflicting stuff that has been going on in one's head after seeing ROTS is hard, I know. It took me a couple of days to post.
I'd like to hear your thoughts though, D. You made some good comments after pancakes at some insane time on Thursday morning.
A very interesting scenario to consider in the case of Windu, is what would have happened if Anakin had walked in and then had the wisdom to walk back out. I assume that Palpatine would have continued the fight and that Windu would have been forced to kill him. It is perhaps this logical scenario that Windu was basing his decisions on before Anakin drew his sabre.
if anakin walked out, Palps would have killed Mace, he easily threw dat battle... why? heres why
1. Pals ***** Yoda, and even tho Mace is bad, he isnt as bad as Yoda
2. Anakin wouldnt've turned to the dark side, which was his plan all along
3. He ***** 3 Jedi Masters in about 3 seconds, yes, Mace is a freaking badass, but he isnt that Strong
I'm sure you can find a better word to use in that context.
I disagree with the first point, though I can see that there doesn't seem to be much evidence that Windu would have won. Assuming, then, that Palpatine would have killed Windu and Windu knew this, perhaps that's why Windu was pragmatically seizing the opportunity to kill the Sith Lord while the ambiguity of Anakin remained.
if only he let anakin come with him...