ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

And it's not just that they scream a lot (although I agree with him that they come across as emotionally unstable manchildren which doesn't help matters). They just feel incompetent in general. I mean they at least had a little bit of intimidation factor in TFA, but TLJ squandered it.

And it makes the hero's feel even more pathetic because they got so thoroughly decimated by this gaggle of yelling idiots.

And yeah The Empire felt far more intimidating. Vader rarely raised his voiced and when he did it was only somewhat, but he radiated intimidation. Tarkin was menacing because of how calmly, coldly, sociopathic, matter of fact he was. Sheev was just plain creepy with his way of speaking, etc.

And even Maul and Dooku were more intimidating than any of the ST villains thus far, as was Dryden Vos.

 

TBH no matter what happens in the ST, I was Done with Legends 17 years ago.

Some fond memories, but meh. I had issues with it.

 

Thinking about weird stuff in ST i almost can see what exactly happened during the in-company meetings dedicated to the ST story.

JJ: Guys, we need to put the vector of development for that franchise. Where to begin with?

Some matured beardy guy (SMBG): Fans are still being triggered by prequels mention. Kathleen said we need to win their trust back. We need to go with something simple and nostalgic.

JJ: So you offer to throw them into nostalgia. Well, i thought about that too. Look, the stories were alway built around the conflicts. It would be easier to bring the conflict and nostalgia together, if we will create something like Empire vs Rebels. The main hero would be the badass girl that met with famous beloved characters.

Kasdan: Just don't put every hero into one movie, Jeffrey. Of course, id be able to write the Skywalker into the plot, but i think, Kathleen didnt want Luke to play significant role in the future movies. Mark isn't young so we need to think about the future.

JJ: Okay, mr. Kasdan. By the way, i think about the Empire remnants. What if some mysterious Villain united them, and attacked the Republic again?

Some young nerdy dude (SYND): That was in the Old EU. Boss won't be happy if we will start taking everything from there.

JJ: Well. But why we should name the remnants of the Empire the Empire? We can think of another name. You know, when i was kid, i loved all these D&D fantasy, with evil cults, dark priests and magister, that work on the Big Faceless Evil. What if we will name the remnants of the Empire the first order? It will be connected to the figure of the mysterious villain who was the first Force User. He revived own cult.

SMBG: Not bad. No one will get that it is essentially the Empire under the new name. We have one side of the conflict now. How would we name the first order?

Kasdan: Dont. First Order sounds fine. I don't want to overload the audience with fancy names. They don't like it.

JJ: Are you sure, mr. Kasdan? I thought....

Kasdan: I wrote the ESB, kid.

JJ: Okay. So what about the other side of the conflict? The New Republic?

SYND: Don't you think that TNR would be too big for FO to be the threat?

JJ: Exactly! It is the core of the plot. We will make FO the real threat with one elegant move. The Death Star will destroy the heart of the Republic with one strike. The remnants of the Republic would be called the Rebels!

Kasdan: Not that **** again.

SMBG: Really?

SYND: Oh my god.

JJ: Look, you all want me to throw the audience into the nostalgia. The Death Star is the most effective way to build the suspense in all these stories. If you want, we can name her Star Killer Base to confuse the audience.

Kasdan: Okay, lets keep that name. So, the Rebels again? Maybe we should name them somehow else?

JJ: The Resistance! I thought about that name. It sounds almost like Rebels. As you said, the audience doesnt want to be overloaded by some fancy and hard names.

SYND: So what will Resistance resist to? Usually someone resisting to the overwhelming enemy.

SMBG: Well you heard it - the heart of the Republic will be destroyed. It seems now its weaker than FO.

SYND: Are you sure? I mean - the Republic consists of the hundreds system, and some of them are as important as Hosnian System, aren't they?

JJ: Im not sure we should focus on such insignificant details. Execution is the key to everything. Am i right, mr. Kasdan?

Kasdan: Sure. I will work on that, maybe. So, Resistance and First Order. What is the name of FO leader?

JJ: Guys, here i need you help. I can't thing of any name for him.

SYND: Then we should open the Random Names Generator source. Look.

*everyone in the room look at the result*

JJ: Well, Snoke. Sounds dumb. Like Snore. Or Snake.

Kasdan: Star Wars always meant to be the saga for kids. Snoke just fine. And by the way, you like to misguide the audience. Let them think Snoke is the big Snake-like creature.

JJ: Good idea, mr.Kasdan. Well gentlemen. On the next week we will think what to do with Luke.

SMBG: You don't need to think what to do with Luke if he will not appear in the movie.

JJ: Hmmm....

 

The thing I find so elegant about how this scenario played out is that look from Obi Wan obviously indicates there is more to the story, but could go in many, many different directions. It plants a seed by giving us information. Turns out this information is not received - by Luke or the audience - in the way is source understood it to be true. Further, this point of view, as characterized by Obi Wan, was shared by Yoda who indicated years earlier that Anakin had been "consumed" by Darth Vader.

As someone who is always hoping the cybernetics will play a larger role in the Star Wars universe, I am wondering what it is about the Order 66 implant that irked you. Personally, I would have preferred for there to have been a tiny preemptive Easter egg in AOTC which had alluded to this, but wasn't recognizable until later. Other than that I really liked this particular development. Before TCW Tup arc, I had imagined Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. style brain washing techniques which was boring to me in the context of Star Wars.

I think Daisy is great, but considering the manner in which Rey has been written, I agree. It should have been Leia and Luke to rebuild the Order together and the responsibility of maintaining and developing it further should have been inherited by the Rey character leading into episode IX.

 

Also Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru imply that they know more about what happened to Anakin that they're letting on.

 

Villains have changed from the kind we grew up with. In the 1980s and 1990s even villains were these big powerful unstoppable forces. Now, effective antagonists are basically creepy and annoying by design. Look at Game of Thrones for example. Villains like Joffrey, or Cersei, or Ramsay, aren't really all that intimidating either but they're ruthless and ambitious and people love to hate them.

Marvel is still stuck in that 1980s macho mode I suppose so a lot of their villains are still scary but beyond comic book films it seems more and more creators are going more towards villains who feel like the kinds of people in your school who got bullied and then grew up and lashed out.

 

Except Ramsay and Cersei can be intimidating at times, also they aren't "whiny" in the same way that Kylo and Hux are either. And Joffrey was pathetic by design, but he wasn't supposed to be the "big bad" of the entire thing.

 

Agreed. I originally viewed the shots of Han's face reacting to, and pertaining to Rey (when she mentions how green Takodana is and when Maz asks Han "who's the girl") in TFA as an echo of the Owen/Beru look exchange and to Rey's history having a deeper meaning to Han and others. Now, I feel like that was all just a red herring.

Is anything in this ST actually meaningful?

I know, @JoJoPenelli , Episode IX will heal all wounds; they have a plan. Got it. Thanks.

 

There’s “loving to hate” and there’s believing that a villain is actually a hero and that his/her villainous actions aren’t all that bad.

 

But those types of villains also wield power that extends beyond what they can do personally. I just don't get the vibe that Kylo or his underlings are exactly intimidating or threatening. DC tried to create the newer type villain we see today with what they did to Lex Luthor and frankly he felt flat. There is nothing wrong with portraying a villain as being intimidating physically and mentally.

 

Case in point, Thanos from Infinity War

 

Judging from the commentary I’ve seen, currently Kylo occupies a very awkward role between “sympathetic villain on a redemption arc” (who the narrative tends to not make the audience hate too much and who displays good qualities) and just plain “Villain that people love to hate.”

His character development is not adhering to expected tropes, which helps make him very divisive.

 

As the grandson & nephew of the characters Hayden Christiansen & Mark Hamill played with whiny and highly emotional characteristics you can tell he’s trying to tap into that.

I don’t think he will be the big bad in the end though. I think the most ruthless Knight within the Knights of Ren will be setup as that and made scarier.

Then, when Solo is overthrown and working to stop the FO I suspect Driver will slowly start to channel Han, Luke and Anakin’s more charming traits more on his path toward redemption as he helps more and becomes less selfish.

The closest thing in recent memory to a heel-face turn like this from someone many despise will probably be reminiscent in some ways of Draco Malfoy’s redemption except Ben Solo’s redemption arc will go further than Malfoy’s did and closer to actual heroism or anti-heroism in the end. It would be more like if Malfoy started helping Potter more directly and they became closer to allies in the end.

 

Assuming you are referring to Kylo, I don't think the villagers on Jakku or the citizens of Hosnian prime would agree with this point of view. I far more sympathetic to their position than I am Kylo's.

 

People enjoy variety. If you only do one type of something, people just as quickly get sick of it. GOT is popular but that doesn`t mean that if all shows suddenly emulated it, they would be popular too.

While there are charming villains who get redeemed, the point is they are already charming when they are villains. They don`t suddenly show a different personality as if a switch has been flipped.

To me Kylo Ren and Ben Solo are not separate people, just as Anakin and Vader weren`t separate people. We never saw much of Ben Solo really but considering his reaction during that night, he was, at least as an adult, apparently also as a teen, a highly emotionally unstable and volatile person. This appears to be who he is so I expect it to remain. He is not really charming so it would make no sense to me if he suddenly turned on the charm.

I wouldn`t say Anakin was particularly charming. Granted, we only saw him with Padme really and he was terribly inexperienced with women as a 19year old (not really surprising considering his life). Then as both grew more secure and accustomed in their marriage, you can see him have more confidence in that maligned balcony scene. Though the dialogue is pretty...well, romantic dialogue is certainly not George`s forté.

Luke also wasn`t Mr.Charme. He was - even in Legends - more of the earnest farm boy type.

Han had some game (and some bluster). Lando has pretty much been the smoothest operator.

At this point, even if Kylo Ren got redeemed, I wouldn`t expect really shining positive traits coming to the forefront. They haven`t established any that he even had in the past. I`d only see him, even redeemed as the whiny, self-involved guy, who would ponder his own victimhood. Even if he was "good", I wouldn`t expect him to be likeable.

The kind of villains I root for their redemption - for themselves, not like Vader for example where I rooted for it on Luke`s account - have something about them, a likeability and charm I see in them even while they still hold the position of villain. This is just not the case for me with Kylo Ren.

 

I feel like the concept of Kylo and the First Order, individuals who idolize individuals important to fascist regimes, or the regimes themselves, is deeply relevant to modern times. I think that, on paper, they are the perfect villain for a modern Star Wars trilogy. But the problem lies in the execution. I think Force Awakens laid the groundwork for a potentially interesting antagonist group, a bunch of space Neo Nazis whose giant weapon and attack on Hosnian Prime is them demanding to be taken seriously. In fact, even the New Republic ignoring the problem until it's grown out of control, I feel is something very relevant and could work with some fleshing out, though requires the main characters we're familiar with to be on the outs with the NR lest they act like idiots. But I feel Last Jedi doesn't really bring out those elements, or really much of anything in it's place, for the First Order, instead just content with them being more or less the Empire, so much so they suddenly have bonus super weapons for single scene action sequences. Instead of fleshing out what made them distinct, I feel like Johnson went with the exact thing I had heard detractors say about Force Awakens for years because it gave him the opportunity to subvert things. And that disappoints me because, while I can forgive it in TFA as the first film setting the stage for it all, I doubt we'll get much on that in 9. I hope they get fleshed out better in additional books and comics, as I think they're an idea with a lot of potential, but that doesn't really help the films, unfortunately.

 

I honestly don't see how JJ salvages this trilogy in any massive way. For all my hangups about discarding the old EU, and I have massive hangups which color my viewing of these movies, I wasn't ready to throw away my fandom card over TFA even if I thought the movie was a disgusting carbon copy.

The First Order in TLJ still feels like they're a bunch of losers out of their mom's basement holding Tiki torches. They just decimated the NR's government and fleet, and they act like they do in TLJ? And we're supposed to believe that they blitzkrieg'd the New Republic's territory already? Fat chance. I'm almost more convinced that Hux, Phasma, and Kylo are part of some fleet made up entirely of losers. Snoke is only there because if he lets these idiots do what they want with no supervision they screw everything up every time. Makes me feel bad for the Captain of the Mandator IV at the beginning of the movie like he wasn't actual part of the fleet and was made to come assist these losers.

 

Well also they were more intimidating in TFA:

-Ruthlessly and efficiently overpowered LST's armed villagers.
-Mercilessly slaughtering them once they were disarmed and then burning the village to the ground.
-Kylo is pretty intimidating for the first half of the film, like when he tortures Poe.
-Snoke is creepy.
-Hux is fanatically but also competent and doesn't make many mistakes. And feel like an equal to Kylo as well as an interesting foil to him as well.
-The FO laying waste to Maz's Castle.
-Kylo stalking Rey through the woods like he was the killer in a slasher movie, and then capturing her easily.
-Hux's fanatically glee when SKB fires for the first time.
-Etc.

The problem is that then TLJ took that all and ditched it. Kylo feels WEAKER than he did in TFA, Hux was turned into a joke and used for cheap comedy/body gags, Phasma was still a joke, the FO felt FAR less competent than they did in TFA, Snoke was reduced to a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain and then died just like that, etc.

And now, none of them feel like a real threat. And because of this, your heroes also have to come across like incompetents just so that the villains will win.

 

Your post now just made me realize. We don't even really see any display's of Kylo's force abilities like we do in TFA.

 

Oh, understood. But they’re also sending “He’s sympathetic!!!” signals.

 

Time for a Final Fantasy style answer: Rey used Steal to nick Kylo's Freeze x1 use in TLJ.

Yes, they are - in an attempt to have their cake and eat it. I can't see it ending well.

 

Nope. Not Force Mind Probe, no Force Freeze, no nothing.

 

Pretty good video explaining why The First Order are not even nearly as intimidating as the Empire were...



MODified: NSFW (language)

 

Too much emphasis on the force skype and force projection to worry about anything else I guess.

I missed the force abilities and a good old fashioned lightsaber duel where the floor was not a target..

@deathfromabove that was posted one page back

 

Wait a second...wasn't this just posted?

He's absolutely right though.