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Discussion TFA TLJ ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jun 1, 2018.

  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Some said you can’t kill someone like Snoke in movie 2, have Rey or Ben fighting together or give Luke Skywalker a dark period of exile where he’s cut off from the Force entirely and changed...

    And yet... here we are.

    We kind of watched an aspect of this play out not too long ago actually in a third movie. Thor Ragnarok introduces Hella, among other new antagonists, who bring Thor & Loki closer together by the end. At least here the Knights were hinted at in the first film as so significant so as to be part of her Force vision and also mentioned by name. The compressed timeline helps massively here too because TFA through TLJ has only been like 5 days or so. Short enough for Abrams to be able to present them as usually being a larger part of the antagonism within the Order but out on some mission. Heck,if they really wanted to make it easy make it some weapon of power they bring back that the one new bad keeps for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 6:40 PM
  2. christophero30

    christophero30 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think the Knights of Ren will play a BIG part and hopefully it is awesome. [face_praying]
     
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  3. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    A bit of a complainet is a lack of seeing still working Imperial era Star destroyers. Having a new model star destroyer is fine but for a series set only 30yrs after RoTJ I wish we saw the First Order still forced to rely on some older designs because they lack the amount of resources the Empire had.

    According to the Wookieepedia (indirect mention in bloodline) some are still in service within the FO.

    They should show up in IX. What if the good guys are able to acquire one of those old Imperial 1 class star destroyers.
     
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  4. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I'd say all this, but adding in some amount of characterization and some mini-character arcs. One reason I like the idea of one or two Knights maybe being redeemed is because even just flavoring these mini-bosses with some characterization could make the fights better; the audience sees a developed character, and they know that the character is at least somewhat less expendable. Plus, they could give Kylo a few characters to confide and interact with who aren't Hux or Rey.
    Yeah, I fundamentally don't see Kylo leaving the main physical threat position of the ST. He was an very effective Heavy villain in TFA, TLJ was about him ascending to the leadership of the villains, and frankly no one *should* be introduced who can take that role from him now. He's got two films' worth of villainous momentum, evil deeds, and build up as the biggest threat on the villains' side once Snoke was killed.

    It's fundamentally lacking in dramatic tension if someone else got introduced to try and usurp his position when the audience knows that Kylo is the one they've invested their time and energy in, and is not going to get killed by some random interloper.
     
  5. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    I absolutely agree with your take and the spirit of your response. Sheev is, for sure, the main villain of the PT, even though the protagonists don't know this until its too late. I don't want to discount that, by any means. I'd like to re-iterate that I really love the story of the PT. I watch the prequels all the time.

    I see a contrast between the OT and PT, however. Darth Tyrannous and General Grievous could have had a better setup.

    After ANH, the OT does not need to introduce any new big bad villains. That, I believe, is as it should be.

    Agreed.

    In a trilogy, the main big bad villain should be set up - in some way, shape or form - during the first movie. If it ends up being the KoR, fine. You are correct, however, if they are intended to be the big bad villains of IX, their conspicuous absence in TLJ will become a point of contention for me too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 7:27 PM
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  6. Christus Regnet

    Christus Regnet Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2016
    The good guys should have whold fleets of old imperial star destroyers
     
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  7. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    In Marvel Civil War they subverted this conceptually



    by eventually revealing all 5 of the other winter soldiers were dead and trying to get the heroes to fight each other but if you look at that flashback conceptually (I personally think it could be done much better even) and imagine good intros to the Knights and one in particular I think they could pull it off.

    To be clear, I think that this would NOT be the original plan they perhaps explored in earlier scripts when they had Leia to help with Ben Solo’s redemption but if they planned redemption in any way with Leia involved and still want that redemptive arc things become a lot harder for them without Leia there to help that process.

    Between having to fall back on less than ideal antagonism or better ensuring their redemptive arc or anything else they wanted for the character later pays off I’m betting they’d opt for less than ideal antagonism. Especially since we all know the heroes are meant to win anyway. There’s strength in numbers and 6 Dark Side users has the potential to feel very threatening if they establish them as such. Have them working in perfect unison and make it seem like they can’t be beaten. That’s basically what Ragnarok did. Hella came in like she was unbeatable and that allowed the audience to have some fun Thor and Loki moments in the end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 7:33 PM
  8. Admiral Keller

    Admiral Keller Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2017
    I'm going to be real honest. I would want to see the heroes with an Executor-class. Or we could canonize the Super-class finally, but that would probably confuse the living daylights out of viewers.
     
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  9. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Wedge and company using the Super Star Destroyer Lusankya in the Eemy Lines duology in the EU was amazing.
     
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  10. Admiral Keller

    Admiral Keller Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Also the Guardian in NJO

    I miss the days when I was in the middle of reading the X-wing Series too. So many late nights of reading. Helped get me through a lot of crap in my teenage years.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 10:28 PM
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  11. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I didn’t say it can’t be done. I’m saying it can’t be done well. TLJ just supports that point as far as I’m concerned.

    SW movies don’t operate like Marvel movies. The PT and the OT gave genuinely frightening villains that were legit more powerful and in control than the heroes. Both trilogies told three-movie stories. They certainly can turn the third movie of the ST into a stand-alone, but it’s a frankly terrible story-telling idea that doesn’t remotely work in the SW Saga context.

    The KoR aren’t behind the FO’s power. They didn’t plan anything. They didn’t outsmart the heroes or do anything at all yet. They’re irrelevant to the stories of TFA and TLJ. Defeating them in IX would never, ever be comparable to taking on Sheev in RotS or RotJ.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 11:15 PM
  12. Admiral Keller

    Admiral Keller Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2017
    While I agree, I think some at Disney sorely wish they did operate like Marvel movies.
     
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  13. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Besides the new Resistence gaining access to some old Imperial tech, I wish JJ allows for some New Republic military to survive, even if it’s very small. Those new T-85 X wings deserve a chance to put some pay back on the First Order.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 12:09 AM
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  14. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2015
    I would be kinda happy to see the remnants of the Resistance to find the old shipyard with Venator-class star destroyers from the Clone Wars era. Would be at least a nice nod to the beginning of the saga with Resistance using Venator-class to fight FO new star destroyers.
     
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  15. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    I enjoy the idea that this could also give a legitimate augment to the look of the resistance, which has been irritatingly bland thus far.
     
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  16. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    The problem is, Kylo is specifically described as being the MASTER of the KOR, and given that none of them are shown using lightsabers besides him in TFA, they might not even be Force Users.

    So if he's their master, and he feels like no real threat, then why would they suddenly be one?
     
  17. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Well, they set up (theoretically) that some were Luke’s former students. If that’s the case those people are Force users. Perhaps they abandoned sabers for different weapons. I’ve said this before but I can imagine the appeal of leaving the Jedi and joining Snoke being initially presented as more free and fun. Think a little bit like the coachman who runs the amusement park in Pinocchio who offers no rules and all of the vices young boys want until he enslaves them later (they turn into donkeys in Pinocchio). That kind of thing. There are some real world parallels, too. When terror cells recruit they promise slave “wives” and make shooting weapons seem cool and offer drugs to calm nerves, etc.

    So, I have long thought that Snoke’s entrypoint into the FO was through his guard. I think he perhaps offered his services for security to the emerging FO and then took over. This is also why I think the Knights have some weapons reminiscent of the Praetorian guard. I imagine Snoke with a weapons vault and making it seem open to the recruits and trying to make them seem like the old rules of the Order are no more. Total freedom from rules! Which of course would be a lie.

    As for students overtaking their master... I’m not really sure why any Star Wars fan would think that couldn’t be presented in a way where the new threat was scary since that process played out in the Sith by design. Plus, strength in numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 9:39 AM
  18. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Did I imagine it or did I once read somewhere that there were no other Force users than Snoke and Kylo Ren in the First Order according to Hux in the TLJ novelization? Yeah we know it's not binding upon IX, Trevorrow and then Abrams and Terrio weren't sitting around reading the novelization, it's just an odd thing to bring up in the first place.
     
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  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    They also played up that the ONLY other person who Luke had seen who had as much power as Rey, was Kylo.

    So that doesn't exactly point to "oh the KOR can totally take him out."
     
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  20. Admiral Keller

    Admiral Keller Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2017
    With the talk of the NR and Resistance. Did anyone else find it extremely infuriating how throughout TLJ they kept switching from Rebels and Resistance? Honestly I'd prefer it if they just call themselves the New Republic at this point because Leia would be the only legitimate leading authority left in that arena as far as I'm concerned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 11:01 AM
  21. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    They played up Rey and Kylo being equal re the saber, too....

    Hm.
     
  22. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    As long as we so live, so does the New Republic.
    Like Gar Stazi from the Legacy comics.
     
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  23. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Perhaps, but with the mention of Kylo taking some of the students in TLJ their is a implication the KoR are force users.


    Of course a force user doesn’t need a lightsaber. Ben could have been the most powerful student (why he is master of them) and sole student who built a lightsaber. Luke’s academy maybe didn’t have a tradition of bulding sabers when students were quite young.

    With a mixture of melee weapons, blasters, grenades, it would be interesting to see the force used to improve the skill and devastation these weapons can push out. I wouldn’t mind seeing one KoR come across across an old Jedi saber, but I prefer they mostly stick to the weapons they were using in the TFA flashback.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 11:36 AM
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  24. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Yeah I brought that up in the old sanctuary thread a couple of times at least. The script goes back and forth between the two appellations instead of settling on one from the outset like it can't make its mind up.

    But ultimately they really shoehorned that one in just to copy/paste the conflict from the OT all over again. At least with TFA it had the veneer of being different or a tad more sophisticated with the FO being this underdog bad guy non-governmental outside force rising up against the Republic while the Republic does nothing but clandestinely support this other military force. TLJ dispenses with this entirely, it's just Empire vs. Rebels again.
     
  25. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Another flaw was not enough Paige Tico. One of the few moments that there were real feels for a new character. Now that is someone who should be a hidden Jedi student of Luke's. Great character sadly we didn't seen enough of.

    Less Kanji club, more Han/Leia/Luke reuniting and their offspring/the Skywalker legacy. More exposition of galactic status quo and explanation of what happened to everyone (the Empire, the Jedi) after ROTJ. Less throwing random characters who are instant gods into our face, and more logical storytelling with characters that have actual motivations to be involved in the major geopolitical story that the sequels are meant to be.

    The more I hear about Hamil saying Lucas had a story, and the Whills etc, the more I want to see that.

    Less lense flare, and Maz union problems, and more actual storytelling, world building, more characters who are Jedi. This is meant to be the era of new Jedi!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 11:13 AM
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