ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I think that comes down to Star Wars trying to be more “true to life” in that no side is without sin. If that’s a good idea to apply to Star Wars I still haven’t figured out.

 

Personally, I think it's a lousy idea. SW was conceived as a fairy tale/Buck Rogers/story of hope and fun.

MOD EDIT: NOPE.

 

As much as I wish we could go back to those movies I think that film era is over.

 

I think ultimately this sort of writing and characterization in TLJ is a disservice to the story and characters themselves. The same for Holdo/Leia being Poe's bad angel/good angel especially since this method isn't even that effective at developing Finn and Poe (especially for Finn who backslides in terms of character).

 

I think if anything, the success of Marvel's "True heroes" vs. "True villains" indicates the exact opposite.

 

Maybe what Star Wars really needs is more dinosaurs.

 

How about Shield in Avengers? They tried to Nuke a city. A government organization in that universe turned out to be under a bunch of Nazis.

Yes the hero characters are all good, but the organizations that they work for are not.

 

Well in fairness, there is literally nothing that isn't improved with "more dinosaurs". You give me a jedi with a lightsaber riding a T-Rex and, well, you've got a stew goin'.

Right, but there's no equivocation. Shield turns out to be nazis, Captain America takes them down. Goodness, light. Against unending darkness. From all sides. But none of this navel gazing "what is a jedi, but a miserable pile of secrets" style nihilism. Marvel stands for heroes and they have made a fortune off of it.

 

That is true and they will continue to make a boatload of money off of it. However it’s a bit to late to change the narrative of the trilogy. You can’t say that the Jedi are all good after the mistakes they have made. I think that started with the Prequels, but was shown more with TLJ.

 

But TLJ doesn't even do that. The publicity said it was doing that; the movie sort of acts as though it thinks it's doing that; but it doesn't. It's actually very clear cut which is the good side- the reason we, with Finn, are supposed to question that makes no sense, while the reason we actually might (tasering deserters) is played for laughs. And don't get me started on the "Force plot"...!

 

Organizations aren't good. People are good. Luke Skywalker was (and should have been in Last Jedi) fundamentally good. In fact, I would argue that in light of the prequels, Luke's arc by the end of ROTJ already was "throwing off the shackles" of the Jedi that had failed. The "return" of the Jedi was as something new, but Rian clearly didn't (or didn't want to) get that. Instead he had Luke "repeating" mistakes of elders he had already proven wrong (by saving vader with Love), and when his inexplicable renactment of prequel era mistakes took him down, he retreated into what can only be described as clinical depression. Not goodness. Not light. "I can't do anything to fix it. I should die." That's not what anyone who goes to these movies comes to them to see.

And yes, the arc can prove interesting from an intellectual perspective (and Mark acted the heck out of it), but it is not Star Wars, and Lucasfilm is presently reaping that whirlwind pretty good right now.

 

I don’t think tasring deserters is actually that bad. Would you rather them be shot? They were deserting. Many people who do the same thing in our world face much worst. Those escape pods could be used for less cowardly people later. I don’t find a problem with that at all.

 

But, and I mean this honestly, is he a "deserter"? He's never pledged loyalty to them or anything. If anything I think it rubs people the wrong way because it sure seems like he is effectively a "hostage" in that scene. And Rose having this moral superiority about effectively kidnapping is...not a great look.

 

I would have done Crait differently. First, I would have set it in a canyon so that the ruby red cliffs were more visually present to make it feel more red on side angles and like a more unique environment.

Secondly, I would have had Poe give a rousing speech in the hanger.

Third, I would have had Finn question the strategy to better establish his issues taking orders again but show Poe open to ideas more as part of his arc following Holdo. I would have had the Resistance feel briefly like they had a shot by having a single walker destroyed by their combined efforts. People in the trenches. People up high on the ruby red escarpment. People in speeders.

Give us even one Walker dropped by all of their efforts. This would lead to a brief celebration. And then the element of surprise would be gone and the FO would pounce. Finn’s suicide run would have been shot to seem less likely to work. The ship would be crumbling more and would in fact smash. Finn would be lying defenseless. Rose would then come in and ram him out of the way as a shot just misses them both. The walkers would slowly turn toward them and we would see more trenches with them both sliding in and just narrowly escaping. We’d see them then run down the trench toward the door as it exploded.

All of these changes would have been better for the movie than what Rian Johnson gave us.

 

I don't think it's presented as evidence, or if it is, it's not supposed to be compelling evidence, you're not supposed to be convinced by it.

It's DJ's way of thinking, that's all. He's wrong. DJ betrays them because he has no sense of loyalty or honor. It's not supposed to prove that the Resistance are the good guys, it's to show you what kind of person DJ is and what his philosophy leads him to be.

I'll use a comparison. Palpatine says a lot of things about the Jedi, the Sith, and good and evil in ROTS, but he's not actually supposed to be right. He's not right, his arguments are facile, and ridiculous coming from him of all people. But for some reason, a lot of people actually believed what he said.

Lucas had Palpatine say those things...but it's pretty clear that Lucas would not agree with Palpatine.

The difference is Lucas did it with far more intelligence and skill than Rian. Lucas actually got people to buy it.

If you don't mind explaining, how does Holdo/Leia act as Poe's bad angel/good angel?

 

He never did join them that is true. He did however not have the right to take an escape pod.

 

I think that's fair. The pod is theirs. Space presents some interesting legal problems, since they also don't have the right to hold him (but he can't leave in any safe capacity without their hardware).

 

You can't say they were bad either. All you can say is that they were very flawed, but no one can compare the Jedi's "mistakes" to galactic genocide. Palpatine was never a Jedi. The Jedi didn't "allow" him to do anything. He was an ambitious, power hungry, patient politician and a Sith through and through. He explored the Jedi's faults, absolutely, but he was the Empire's architect, it didn't fall on his lap. That's insulting, dude worked his ass off. "Both sides were equally wrong" doesn't work here at all.

 

Well, if you don't, it only helps my argument- then there's no actual "greyness".

It's DJ's way of thinking, sure- but that scene is about Finn's "arc", and the revelation that both sides buy from the same dealer was clearly supposed to shake him. Or maybe it was the revelation that the Resistance buys its arms from arms dealers in the first place; I don't know. Doesn't make much sense.

 

I don't see how TLJ showed the Jedi as not all good. All TLJ showed is a bitter Luke trying to finish off Sheev's Order 66 while whining about the terrible Jedi. There wasn't a Jedi in that movie, other than arguably for those that see it that way Luke and Rey at the very end. The PT showed the Jedi were flawed, but it would be silly to ever pretend they were perfect. They're human. Of course they're flawed. They're still not the bad guys.

 

And that's what is so wrong with Luke's thinking, it is not nuanced or even logical. Now, to be fair to Rian, he needed Luke to be "wrong" so he could come back to the light, but he never seems "wrong" in a plausible way. "You think that, Luke? Are you an idiot?" That shouldn't be the reaction anyone wants, but I don't think Rian was a gifted enough writer to have Luke be subtley wrong but in a way that made sense.

 

RJ should have been less focused on Luke being wrong so he could come back to the light and more focused on this trilogy's actual protagonist having an arc. Luke's role was supposed to be mentor, not hero.

 

I agree (you know I do), but I am trying to work within the parameters Rian laid out. He has said he basically felt trapped by where TFA left Luke (and the fact that Luke didn't help the Resistance), and so he needed Luke to be a failure. But of course, he also needed Luke to be Luke in the end. Now I think the depressed hermit angle displays a tremendous lack of imagination (I've talked about that before), but if we assume it to be needed, Rian simply wasn't up to the task of making Luke be *plausibly* wrong.

 

Johnson should have played up Fundamentalism more for the Luke arc. The deleted scene was a massive mistake. Rey should have asked what a Force user like her could find without the presence of the Jedi. Let them debate more. Let Luke say that the Order has always been overrated. That the lesson she just learned to connect to the Force is the most important of all. Make him truly the anti Yoda in that way there. Make him like an artist who thinks teaching painting is a mistake and that it’s more important for painters to develop their own style. Make him seem more radical & purposefully trying to break free from the Jedi more and have him tell us more.

Have him debate Yoda more. Argue with him. Have him tell Yoda that he told him all those years ago to be willing to sacrifice to win the ultimate war for balance. Have them get into a fascinating philosophical debate.

Luke’s arc works better for me than many of you largely because if I was somehow selected to write it I literally would have wanted to tackle some of what Johnson aims for here. For me, these truly are some of most fascinating aspects of Star Wars! For me, seeing where Luke changed and became a little more like his dad while still remaining different is the single most important thing I would have wanted to see explored in any story that had him back. Not doing that would have disappointed me massively. It would have felt like a huge wasted opportunity to me. That he aimed for that counts for a lot for me and I defend it accordingly for that reason because I prefer a filmmaker with the ambition to go there and look at father & son, & explore religion, and ask questions of the Jedi after all he’s been through, and explore the concept of fundamentalism with ancient texts than not. I love the ambition. I love the potential. I love the concepts. I love the themes.

But... and this is my criticism... the execution is not what it could have been and your collective disinterest is proof positive of that on some level for me. I think these ideas could have been better executed & I do think Johnson was too afraid to seem too on the nose when getting into some of this & that the choice to cut the caretaker scene is one of the worst decisions and cuts I’ve seen in at least the past 5 years of blockbuster filmmaking. That scene helped him better explore his ideas & he cut it. Just a horrible choice for him.