ST ST lightsaber battles. Mirror PT or OT?

I'm pretty sure the EU is just there to make up things to cover the inconsistencies in the movies. Dont get me wrong I read plenty of EU books and obviously Im a star wars fan but I really hope we can get some consistency happening with the new movies lightsaber battles. What was Maul doing when Obi Wan flipped up over him anyway? And how does Sidious kill 2 Jedi masters without them trying to block his light saber? The answer to those questions is in the EU huh! We shouldnt have to read EU books to explain things that don't t make sense in the movies.

 

It took a bit of effort for Qui-Gon to burn as much as he did.

Luke was exhausted and it wasn't a very powerful swing. A strike from a lightsabre doesn't automatically mean maiming - Dooku took down Kenobi, granted he does in with purpose and skill, bit it proves a Luke's weak strike is consistent with other wounds.

I'd never though about it but maybe some metals are more resistant.

 

Have any of the behind the scenes documentaries about the OT ever shown or discussed Mark Hamill's lightsabre training?

 

I've definitely seen BTS footage of him training with Bob Anderson.

 

Im assuming Vader has decent armor to take a hit like that. Its obviously not the same metal the droids have!

 

OT to both questions. Multiple duels in one film dilutes the importance of duels. When a duel occured in the OT, it was a pivotal moment for the characters involved. In the PT, it was just fighting as always. I think JJ and Kasdan will agree.

 

How does it dilute the importance of duels?

How do you Abrams and Kasdan think that?

 

PT had 1000's of Jedi with lightsabers and a few Sith, OT had 3 Jedi and 2 Sith, so it really depends on how many characters with lightsabers there are in ST to determine the amount of fights

 

Considering that they are shooting with film, not digitally as a homage to the OT my impression would be that the lightsabre fights are very OT inspired.

 

The two are not necessarily connected. Besides, part of the reason that this is being shot on film is that Abrams (like a few other directors too) apparently prefers it.

 

Over and over again some people just want to pretend that there is some absolute to the "PT way" or the "OT way".

That is simply incorrect.

I will say it again. There were only 3 "duels" in the OT on one side each time was Vader and the other single opponent was Obi-Wan then Luke twice.

In case you missed it Luke was Vader's son. Obi-Wan was not trying to kill Vader but cause a distraction. Vader was not trying to kill Luke at first then tested him to see how good he was. It was only at the end of the first duel that he got really angry and then he still didn't kill him when he could have. Then in ROTJ he again wasn't trying to kill him. Now if Luke didn't defend himself he would have gotten killed.

In the PT we actually have outright enemies who want to kill each other each time they fight. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Maul, Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Anakin etc.

Was Qui-Gon's death not a pivotal moment? Of course it was. Was Anakin being cut down by Obi-Wan not a pivotal moment? Of course it was. You can't make every single fight of absolute pivotal importance in a universe where you have multiple duels especially when they aren't related. Dooku escaping was pivotal to the war, Mace-Palpatine was pivotal to Anakin's turn, Anakin getting his arm chopped off was pretty important even Obi-Wan's duel/fight with Greivous was important so for the duels we got there were a lot of important events connected to them. Yoda-Sidious was important because if Yoda wins then the story is a lot different.

I really wonder what is going to happen if the ST actually does what you are accusing the PT of doing. Just having lots of useless fights for fights sake with no meaning behind them other than to have a fight as opposed to having a good fight and move the story and characters forward.

Exactly. The only duels were between Jedi and Sith. So for the Sith we have Maul, Dooku, Sidious and Vader.

We already have hints that we might have all sorts of Stormtroopers with Lightsabers. So I think the chances of a massive battle of Forceusers all wielding Lightsaber is a pretty fair bet to happen in the ST.

I don't see the connection. Shooting on film is irrelevant. At worst it's a small backwards technically but I would think that it's pretty close to the advantages of HD capture now. There is no homage to the OT by shooting on film.VII is being shot on film but being made digitally.

24 fps is 24 fps and that is the "film" look which really just means getting 24 pictures a second whether you get it on film or video.

 

I can't see how the ST lightsaber fights could replicate those in the PT, theoretically they should mirror those of the OT, with less twriling and acrobatics. Unless somehow someone was trained using something from the gloden era of the Jedi from the PT.

 

That is not correct.

Abrams is shooting on film as an homage to the OT.

He is shooting on film because he prefers it. Simple as that.

The whoopty-do that followed the "announcement" was just silly - he was never going to shoot Episode VII digitally. He has never filmed movie or TV episode digitally.

Even I knew that.

 

For climatic effect, I'd have only first first saber battle at the end of Ep VIII.

 

That depends on the story.

How do you know that a lightsabre battle at the end fits the story if you don't know the story?o

Also, about the digital vs. film - nothing about film hinders VFX or stunts.

 

That is another point. Though I have missed "all this" twirling and acrobatics you are talking about. There is far less of that than critics who simply don't like the PT for it's own sake. That is Yoda's style of course but the odd jump and roll is thrown in their as well for the others.

This is like the person here who keeps insisting that the duel on Mustafar was all one handed. Not surprisingly they fail to mention when Anakin and Obi-Wan have the one hand it's because they are either balancing themselves on the unsteady ground or having the hand free as they are also dueling with the Force as well as Lightsabers. When their Sabres actually clash they have both hands on it over and over again.

Anyway in terms of training that is an important point. No matter how Force sensitive anyway is without proper training be it Jedi or Sith you won't be able to get the power in the first place never mind be able to use it to it's full degree.

Anakin without training would still be exceptional as a pilot and in fights with anyone else but against top Jedi he couldn't do much. It's the 10 years of training that made him so powerful so as not to be not too far behind Yoda at 19. Power isn't everything though as we see against Obi-Wan. Anakin is far more powerful but doesn't have the wisdom to use it like Yoda or Sidious. Luke has a lot of power even by ROTJ but he's no match for Sidious and if Vader wasn't compromised by his feelings for Luke one wonders if he still wouldn't be a match for him.

The point is that depending on the story the Force users in the ST and how they fight has to be determined by the amount and kind of training they have and how good their teachers are.

Really they probably shouldn't be near as good as the best of the best PT Jedi we've seen. Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Sidious, Dooku, Maul are the elites. So other than Luke and some possible Sith Lord or two no one else probably would be near that.

Story-wise that makes sense. The question is will they follow that or just expedite the whole process? Based on the way most movies like to fast track things I doubt it. On the other hand there is nothing to say that their won't be all sorts of Force users who have years of training from Luke and others won't be a large part of the offscreen story prior to the film.

 

Qui-Riv-Brid Really? I think theres plenty of lightsaber twirling going on in the PT, much more so than in the OT and also many more flips and jumps and rolls, not just by Yoda either. BTW I wasn't criticising the PT in any just in case you thought that.

Luke was taught to use a lightsaber by Obi-Wan very briefly and he wasn't unnecessarily spinning it around, it was very functional, so if Luke is the teacher in the ST then my logic is that his method of using a lightsaber will be taught to his trainees.

The people that fought in the style of the PT, (much more fancy than the OT), don't exist anymore. So unless the Jedi or Sith or whoever wields a lightsaber in the ST creates their own unique style or finds some ancient teachings or gets taught by a force ghost (is that possible)?? Then by my logic, and which you mention in your post too, then everyone should follow in the style of the OT surely.

 

In TESB, Vader fought while holding his light sabre in one hand.

Actually struck at Luke with one hand.

People seem to ignore that.

 

The NJO will probably be in its developing stage still so having lightsaber skills somewhere in between the OT and PT makes sense imo.

 

Now, here we have the first logical, well thought out reasons why the ST duels may not match those in the Prequels.

No criticism of one or the other. Just good common sense.

Well done.

Now, I think you have opened up a whole new possibility. - that the ST duels don't "mirror" anything.

The PT and TCW showed us multiple times the Jedi fighting non-Force opponents who were a match for , if not superior to, the Jedi.

There are other fighting skills in the galaxy besides Jedi & Sith ones.

What if Luke has learn some of those? Adapted and blended them into his own style?

We could be in for something completely new.

 

Oh I thought you meant all kinds of body twirling. You mean the sabre's themselves or something else. You mean more specific style actions?

Now we get into technical things informed by the stunt co-ordinators which goes to the actors and into the movie and storytelling.

So obviously the OT has a more simple style of fighting as Peter Diamond did it in the time he had then Nick Gillard incorporated all kinds of disciplines and created the various forms.

I don't know if actually created the 7 forms or someone else interpreted them from the films or some combination of both.

Now we bridge from the realities of making the movies to the stories themselves.

Obviously there is no way they will go back to the same style which was dicated by their own knowledge or lack of it and there ability to shoot that.

The PT spent months with the actors to train in styles that would story and visual wise show how great these Jedi and Sith were.

The ST probably shouldn't be as good as that but the tempation would be to try and top it as each movie wants to.

 

I would like them to mirror the OT in terms of emotional and dramatic impact which aside from obviously Vader vs Obi-wan the PT really lacked in.

I think they went overboard with the choreography after PM, which IMO probably has the most exciting duel in the franchise thus far, in terms of choreography, style etc which I think was largely due to the impact of Ray Park, they will have a job on topping it.

I would like to see a different style of fighting for the ST, a simpler more brutal style with less extravagance, mirroring the state of the Jedi and their stutuation at that time. Then the PT with its own style with all the spins, twirls and extravagance would then mirror a Jedi order at the height of its power and opulence.

 

The thing is that all those most emotional battles came from Anakin/Vader and in the case of Luke it was more Luke than Vader while in the case of Vader and Obi-Wan it was both of them to a degree never seen.

I would like to point out that Lucas is a very clever fellow and going into the prequels he knew that from a character and story perspective that nothing was going to top Vader and Obi-Wan because of their bond anymore than anything else other than that is going to top Vader and Luke.

So to say the PT "lacked" is really not the case. You can't lack something that was not going to be there. To get this huge emotional fight that we are talking about comes about from strong bonds which are only in specific cases and all tied to Vader.

 

If some people found them lacking, that means it was lacking to them. That is not mutually exclusive to you thinking they succeeded on an emotional level.

 

There won't be any light sabre duels in the ST