Star Trek: Where did the Next Gen movies go wrong?

Picking up on where the discussion left off in this thread, as it was getting off topic, we'll continue here.

The discussion is of the Next Generation movies, the marketing of them, where they went wrong, and what they could have done to make them a better series of movies. Or did you simply like them perfectly as they are?

(Please feel free to quote your posts form the other thread for discussion here.)

 

Like I said in the earlier thread, they had a chance to build a movie franchise with Next Gen by using First Contact as a springboard which built upon the very excellent Best of Both Worlds two - parter from the TV series. However they wrapped up the movie unfortunately a little too neatly, leading really with no where to go for the next two movies.

Perhaps you either assimilate one or more of the other regular characters or have Data go with the Borg queen without changing history and you spend the next film or two with the Enterprise -E going into Borg space to chase after Data and the Borg, perhaps combining it's might with Voyager once the Voyager series had ended (a nice way of both extending the Next Gen's film life and get characters from the other two 24th century series onto the big screen).

 

I just think when it comes to Star Trek the original cast and characters were to overwhelming to acheive what the first six movies did omitting 1 and 5. For example, say the new SW tv series does good enough they want to do some movies? Probably wouldn't have the same success as the SAGA. Same for Star Trek.

 

Honestly folks...is that what made that movie bad? when they released it?

What if it had been awesome...don't you think it would've crippled the LOTR sequel?

"I head the new Star Trek movie is awesome...let's wait a week on Two Towers...it'll be crowded anyway".

I've already indicated the major reason they released when they did...they wanted 1 weekend being number 1 at the box office during the major christmas season...they'd get a weeks worth of "#1 movie in America" billing...and probably ride that through the christmas rush...and it DOES matter.

But they failed...Jennifer Lopez was the #1 movie in America (sheesh) and Star Trek was pronounced DOA.

Quality of the film has nothing to do with release...even if it went up against nothing, had a #1 weekend...the fall off when people come out and say "it sucks" would be massive.

Opening weekend results mean little...if a film sees a 60-70-80% drop off into the next weekend...that's generally the sign that this thing is a bust.

 

So how long do you shelve it, hoping for the best combination of audience turnout/lack of competition?

Summer? The Next Christmas? Run into Things like matrix sequels, X-2, and of course the next LOTR?

Perhaps the problem is that Star Trek movies ran into their progeny...people could get a fix from other films now and not wait for the next dropping from Rick Berman's nether realm. It would be an endless waiting game unless they decided to take the blow and go "off-season"...and that would be a statement of death for the franchise as bad as any tanking.

If your franchise is suffering so badly and you have such little faith that it can draw against competition...the writing was on the wall before it hit the theaters.

I worked at a theater when Nemesis came out...we dumped it before the end of the year.

 

Insurrection was the only "bad" movie of the Next Gen series, IMO. First Contact was brilliant, Nemesis wasn't bad, and I'll always have a soft spot for Generations because it was the first Trek film I ever saw.

 

Where they went wrong:

I think part of the problem is that I never really liked any of the characters in the Next Generation. Another part of the problem is that since they knew the show would be popular just by hanging "StarTrek" in the title, they decided to flood the show with too many characters. TOS has 3 main characters, with a bunch of recurring supporting characters. TNG has arround 8 main characters, with about
as many recurring supporting characters. Problem is, all of the main characters want screen time, lines, and stories that showcase them, and none of them are really interesting.
Well, that's my opinion.

More specific ideas for the movies follow:

Generations: deciding to write a story with both Kirk & Picard to make a "linking movie". The whole script needed to be scrapped and rethought. There are so many gaping plot holes in the movie it just isn't funny. Really, not even the worst TNG episode was as badly scripted as this idea.

First Contact: Not enough of the new ship, re-writing the entire borg concept from a corporate entity to a cult of personality, time travel (Star Trek does not handle time travel well, and needs to stop using it.)

Insurrection: How about, oh, I don't know... an actual insurrection? You know... The Enterprise vs the rest of the fleet? As it was, it was Picard & Enterprise crew vs one officer who barely outranked him and a bunch of ratty ships built by the remains of the face-lift rejects.

Nemesis: Have the guts to actually KILL a character. None of this "Well, we killed one, but we're going to restart him using a clone body," lameness. And how about actually making the Romulans seem threatening? Honestly, they've seemed like nothing more that immature weiner vulcans every time they've been used since the original series, including in Trek VI.

Go back to numbering the movies.

Get rid of the unnecessary cross-overs.
"Warf, I thought you'd been assigned to DS9?"
"I heard there was a new movie deal."
"OK. For some reason, we never assigned anyone to fill in your spot on the bridge anyway, or to take over security."
---
"Activate emergency Hologram Doctor."
"Hi, I needed a little cash. Can I make a cameo in your movie? Maybe deliver a little comic relief?"

 

Yeah, it bothered me how they kept finding excuses for Worf to return to the Enterprise.

 

Worf was one of their best characters, of course they're going drag him back. As for Insurrection it would have been a lot cooler if it had been them against the rest of the fleet and it would have helped if it had been over something more compelling then protecting a bunch of alien hippies.

 

And the fact that the hippies lived on the Paramount Ranch in California. How about some epic scope? It was suppose to be a movie you know? Filming on the Paramount backlot just doesn't cut it.

 

Stop attacking 1st contact! Its the best ST film of all time! And to whoever said nemesis eclipses anything beyond the first film...what?! Really? I love the series, but I really detested nemesis.

 

First Contact was the best NG film. However, Wrath of Khan takes the cake for best ST film of all time.

 

Stop attacking First Contact? Why?

There is a law of the galaxy: any species that listens to a song with the lyrics "oobie doobie" is too aestetically and culturally primitive to be considered acceptable in modern galactic society. This is why the Vulcans stood up in alarm when the juke box started.
And let's look at the Vulcan First Contact protocol:
Hmm, a ship with weapons and warp drive systems several hundred years advanced of our own... Ignore it and maybe it will go away.
Hey, there's a ship that can just barely make warp one. Let's stop by and say 'Hi.'

OK, so STII had amazing grace, but at least it was played on bagpipes. Otherwise the song is utterly overused and intollerable.

 

I like all the Trek movies, some more that others, obviously, but the problem is that a movie for a vewry long running TV show like Star Trek should give us something that we will never see on TV because the film makers either can't or won't do it. Bart's nude scene in The Simpsons Movie is a good examle of this. Its true that The Simpsons has shown plenty of skin over the course of its run, but they have never done uncensored frontal nudity on TV and the reason for that is because the FCC won't let them, but the rules regarding nudity in the movies are more lax so, not only were they able to get away with it, but nobody even batted an eye when they saw it. Now I'm not suggesting that the next Star Trek movie should have a nude scene, but Star Trek is Paramount's oldest, most popular franchise and most lucrative. They should be doing things with the Trek films that are simply not possible on a weekly TV series and they aren't. It's true that TWOK-TVH and and FC are considered classic sci-fi in addition to big viewed as classic Trek, but the Trek film that really tried to do something genuinely different with Star Trek formula was TMP. The Trek films, while very good for the most part are ultimately glorified episodes. If they want to give us something different, they really need to bust out Q as a Trek film bad guy or do a movie about Wesley and the Traveler.

 

Ha. clearly you weren't paying attention. Riker explained this in the film. I don't recall it precisely, but they used the limitations of the vulcan's sensors at the time and hid behind the moon...or something. regardless, it was explained. you just weren't paying attention.

 

Why The Next Generation Movies Were Not As Succesful As The TOS Movies- in 3 easy parts


1) No movie-linking story arc

Star Trek II-IV all directly fall into line with same string of effects- Khan's revenge, Kirk's family, destruction of the Enterprise, aging and changing of the characters, Spocks death and rebirth. V is all about the characters recovering from this arc, and VI can only happen because of III and IV.

The closest the TNG movies ever came to this was an opprotunity to combine the death of Picard's brother and nephew with the existence of Shinzon. How much more poignant would it have been if Shinzon wasn't evil at all, only confused and alone- and then Picard dies to save him, leaving Shinzon as the last Picard and the holder of their legacy. Doing this would've also tied into Riker's character much more neatly, as he would finally be the captain of the Enterprise.


2) No Q

This is a decision I will never understand. The most popular TOS movie has its main villain as someone who was popular in an episode. The most popular TNG film has the Borg. And yet, for some reason, no one ever thought to write up a script with Q- one of the most consistently entertaining and popular characters to come out of the new series'.

Having him in a movie would've added much needed comic relief without having to compromise the tone of the rest of the plot(imagine that Q telling Picard was how the Enterprise discoverd the Baku Consipiracy, and everything else could stay dark and questioning)


3) No changes to the characters

This ties into reason #1, but deservers it's own category. Throughout the TOS arc, each of the main characters change in their own way. The largest example is of course Spock, who dies, comes back- and then finally comes to accept his humanity. Kirk figures out how to define himself outside of the dashing captain. Sulu grows out of the shadow of his crewmates.

Nobody really changes in the TNG movies- Riker and Troi marry, Geordi ditches the Cyclops ripoff, Data learns to laugh. Other than those things, every character in every movie is completely interchangable with who they were in the show. Tell me, would the TOS crew have made the same decisions in III and VI if they had been thirty years younger?




On another note, I would also say that while it was the most succesful series, I don't think it was the right one to bring to big screen. For that, I would use Deep Space Nine. It had the interesting characters in constant flux, frequently relied on large story arcs within the show itself, and had crowd-pleasers like Garak and Martok to flesh things out.

 

QFT. I am really surprised that they didn't do something with the Dominion War instead of Insurrection. Even if they wanted to keep it as a strictly TNG movie, it would have been far better to do something with the Dominion War instead of having them running around the Briar Patch. After all, where do you expect a main-line starship like the Enterprise to be in a time of war? I expect her to be in combat, not carrying out relief missions.

 

Insurrection was a fraud for 2 reasons:

1) the original intent of the film was to break with the increasingly "warlike" tone of Trek in all areas. It was intended more as the "discovery" movie.

But then, as and after finishing development...they realized "oh no, people like the violence...they like that thrill."

I remember eons ago hear/reading that initially, the whole Son'a thing was a much smaller part of the story...and the Data/Picard/Baku plot had many more scenes...but after initial screenings where people fell asleep, and some walked out (OF A TEST SCREENING) they decided to go back and up the ante a bit. I think this lends credence to why some of the "fight scenes" at the end seem unfinished...they were the last things to be thrown in the film.

In essence, they wanted to do a fluff piece that Gene would've loved...but when they sensed impending doom, they added some punches and named it something "tough" like Insurrection to make you think *action, fighting*...and the trailer conned audiences that way too.

The sad thing is that Insurrection might have some of the best performances by the cast in it...but the movie was a fraud from 15 minutes in, and by that point, the audience had already made it's decision.

-I've also heard that this is the lowest circulated film of the saga on dvd/vhs. Like not even a 1/4 of the sales as the second lowest, Nemesis.

 

Where did they go wrong?

Absolutely no Q in the movies.

They took the bookends of the series and did nothing with it. They completely ignored the character. How can you end a show on a quasi-cliffhanger and not bring the character to the big screen?

I liked the movies, but I really expected Q to show up in Nemesis; showing us that he was behind the events of that movie, and that, in some way, he would answer Picard's question from the end of the series.

 

Personally, the only Next Gen films I wouldn't watch is Insurrection simply because it made even Voyager look good. It was absolutely shocking. I still don't quite get why Data went insane at the beginning. As for the others, First Contact was absolutely brilliant, second only to The Wrath of Khan. Nemesis was a good bit of fun and Generations was entertaining. I think it's odd I liked most of them really. TNG is my second least favourite Trek series.

 

I think one of those "Nemesis" was suppose to be "First Contact"...but which?

 

Nemesis almost as good was Wrath of Khan. Perhaps that's because...they're the same movie?

 

You saw nothing...

Eh?