Star Wars and Christianity

As you see, there's a light and a dark side of the force. It's more of an ancient eastern good/life balance thing. It has little to do with Christianity.

But this eastern good/life balance thing IS part of the eastern religion. You can't really say that the force has nothing to do with religion, because the whole force thing itself is made to look spiritual in the SW movies.

Obi-Wan smiled because he is good. His other option was to use force choke, like Vader on the Death Star. It's a similar argument, really.

Well, actually he smiled because Han had openly declared that he didn't believe there was a "force", and Ben knew that there definitely was.

Monotheism? No, they have not.

The first religious manifestatins were, AFAIK, burial rituals and the praise of season or day/night divinities.

Did I say monotheism? No! I meant that people have believed in a God, OR gods, OR different kinds of divinities since prehistoric times.

Thing is, the Star Wars films DO support the Judeo-Christian notion that good is ultimately more powerful than evil.

The Force lends itself to a symbiotic relationship: it guides you AND obeys your commands.

That's true. And the force religion in SW is actually supposed to be a BLEND of world religions. I heard it from Lucas!

They are on the DARK SIDE, but they might think it's the "good" or the "right" one.

But that's from THEIR point of view. Their minds are all twisted from the DarkSide, see? Just because they say it's good doesn't make it right. There's a lot of trash out there today that people claim is good, when actually it's not.

Evil is still evil, no matter how you look at it.

And about Ben disappearing into the Force...do you guys know for a fact that he actually disappeared forever? Have you ever considered that maybe Ben had to stick around awhile to finish counseling Luke, and then go to a different place (whatever that may be?)? Sure it's mysterious, but most spiritual things are.

 

No,it isn't, but we cannot forget the fact that Sith themselves know that they are choosing the path of badness, which doesn't mean it's wrong for them, but also the assassin knows he's doing bad, tought he may thing that what he's doing is wrong.

The Sith certainly know good from evil. Palpatine can pretend to be "good". But take a guy like Darth Maul. He was a weapon. He never choose to be a Sith.

Yeah, they are evil, I can't argue about this in absolut terms. But do they percive themselves as evil? Or, evil as wrong?

Darth Vader did, I think. Palpatine, no.

One more point:that's true that unrighteusness and the people who practise it last for a long time. That happens in our world too.
Their actions seem to bee more powerful, but they only seem to be like that,'cause the real battle is the one which develops inside yourself to remain in good when you really want to act the same hatred way others have acted to you.

Not so sure about this. Really evil people only stop when justice gets them, dead or alive.

Doing good to soemone who has done bad to you is the most powerful punishment.

Depending on the circunstances. Sometimes it could be a way for them to escape and do further evil.

 

But this eastern good/life balance thing IS part of the eastern religion. You can't really say that the force has nothing to do with religion, because the whole force thing itself is made to look spiritual in the SW movies.

The Jedi religion workships the force, and ancient pagans worshipped the sun. The sun had everything to do with religion, but was not what their worshippers believed it to be.

The movie tells us that the force is a force field created by microorganisms. It makes several "magical" things possible, including afterlife, at least for some of them. That's it.

The Sith could use the force as much as the Jedi. The force had, itself, a dark side. The Sith didn't think that the dark side was a "corruption", they thought that it was the "TRUE NATURE" of the force. (Vader, ROTJ). More powerful, even.

Well, actually he smiled because Han had openly declared that he didn't believe there was a "force", and Ben knew that there definitely was.

Yeah, but Han was not all that wrong. The force did not control everyone's destiny - of course, Obi-Wan never said it did, so what it's obvious Han didn't knew much of what he was talking about. He might be half-right, but for the wrong reasons. Perhaps that's why he smiled. Perhaps he remembered a Joke that Mace Windu told him about Yoda's green ear.

That's true. And the force religion in SW is actually supposed to be a BLEND of world religions. I heard it from Lucas!

Well, perhaps from the perception Lucas HAS of the world religions, what is an entire new debate. World religions don't work like the force do. Again, force religion is something different from the "force" itself.

But that's from THEIR point of view. Their minds are all twisted from the DarkSide, see? Just because they say it's good doesn't make it right. There's a lot of trash out there today that people claim is good, when actually it's not.

I agree, but that just shows that different views of the universe might even work.

If one did only see the PT, they would think that the "right" side is the darkside, because it "won".

Evil is still evil, no matter how you look at it.

Perhaps, but some someone could say that's maniqueism, and that things are rarely that simple. There are a very large number of issues that cannot be cleary divided into "good" and "evil".

I won't use real-world paralels here, because it would generate a massive debate like "Is the Empire evil thread".

So let's use Star Wars examples.

Destroying the Death Star was good. Killing hundreds of innocent civilians workers inside wasn't. Do you really think every single person working on the Death Star was an evil imperial agent?

What if the alliance raided an Imperial convoy that was also carrying food and medicine to a distance civilian colony and weapons for an imperial outpost? If they let the weapons go, that's bad. If they don't let the food go, that's bad too.

Darth Vader was very evil. But the Emperor never completely drove good out of him, there was something in ROTJ that Luke could work on, even after 20 years of Sith practice.

Anakin was not all good on AotC, and not all bad on ROTJ.

Going to fight Dooku and leaving Amidala on AotC is bad. Saving hear and letting Dooku go would end up being much better. Obi would not get hurt, Anakin would not be zapped and lose his arm, what could end up preventing him from going to the dark side and the fall of the republic. Dooku was bound to escape anyway. Go figure.

And about Ben disappearing into the Force...do you guys know for a fact that he actually disappeared forever? Have you ever considered that maybe Ben had to stick around awhile to finish counseling Luke, and then go to a different place (whatever that may be?)? Sure it's mysterious, but most spiritual things are.

Obi-Wan was sacrificed for dramatic proposes. Since he was along 2 other dead glowing guys on the end of ROTJ, he probably isn't rematerializing any time soon.

 

The Jedi religion workships the force, and ancient pagans worshipped the sun. The sun had everything to do with religion, but was not what their worshippers believed it to be.

That doesn't mean, however, that everything worshipped in religion is all a crock.

Yeah, they are evil, I can't argue about this in absolut terms. But do they percive themselves as evil? Or, evil as wrong?

Darth Vader did, I think. Palpatine, no.

I was wondering...exactly what sort of point are you trying to make with all this stuff about Sith percieving themselves as good? Are you trying to make it seem like there isn't any good or evil, or what?

The movie tells us that the force is a force field created by microorganisms. It makes several "magical" things possible, including afterlife, at least for some of them. That's it.

That's IT? All of the wonder, the power, the magic of the force, all got in a stupid useless explanation given in Ep.I? Oh, well, that certainly is a lot of fun. I sure like SW a lot better now...

Ep.I might have give us that explanation, but for over 20 years we were without midichlorians and everyone seemed just fine. Then all the sudden these midis come up and everything that made up the essential part of the movies, the magic and mystery, fffffft went out the window.

And what good is that? Once people start relying on these monotonously down-to-earth explanations everyone becomes rather monotonous and down-to-earth themselves. We need magic and mystery, we need fuel for our imaginations.

But then again, if you think about it..."midichlorians" are supposed to be tiny beings or something with the force, right? The more midis there are, the more force powers. However, the movie didn't say that these pathetic midis were actually the force itself.

Destroying the Death Star was good. Killing hundreds of innocent civilians workers inside wasn't. Do you really think every single person working on the Death Star was an evil imperial agent?

It's sad that many civilians had to die. But the fact that civilians die during a war or battle is nothing new. It's something that's happened 100's times throughout the ages. It's the price people pay for war. Because war is a definite evil!

Well, perhaps from the perception Lucas HAS of the world religions, what is an entire new debate. World religions don't work like the force do. Again, force religion is something different from the "force" itself.

That almost sounds as if SW and Lucas were a seperate thing. Lucas created SW, as you know, of course, and he was the one who created the concept of the force. So what he says ought to go.

 

That doesn't mean, however, that everything worshipped in religion is all a crock.

Of course not. But it means that not all religions are 100% correct. Even Jedi. You see, if the Jedi were all-powerful with the force, the Sith would have never defeated them.

I was wondering...exactly what sort of point are you trying to make with all this stuff about Sith percieving themselves as good? Are you trying to make it seem like there isn't any good or evil, or what?

The point is that the Sith do not align themselves with the Jedi religion. Their conception of the force is different. And it also works very well.

That's IT? All of the wonder, the power, the magic of the force, all got in a stupid useless explanation given in Ep.I? Oh, well, that certainly is a lot of fun. I sure like SW a lot better now...

Well, what can I say. Let me quote you:

" Lucas created SW, as you know, of course, and he was the one who created the concept of the force. So what he says ought to go."

Apparently that is only a valid point when you like it?

And what good is that? Once people start relying on these monotonously down-to-earth explanations everyone becomes rather monotonous and down-to-earth themselves. We need magic and mystery, we need fuel for our imaginations.

Yeah, let's hide the truth. Fire? It must be a mistery, let us never study it and harverst its powers.

It's sad that many civilians had to die. But the fact that civilians die during a war or battle is nothing new. It's something that's happened 100's times throughout the ages. It's the price people pay for war. Because war is a definite evil!

War is a definite evil? So it should be avoided at all costs? Should the rebellion not wage war against the Empire? You see, things are not as clear as they might appear.

As for the so called acceptable civilian losses. It's dangerous to go down the "the end justifies the means" road.

That almost sounds as if SW and Lucas were a seperate thing.

THEY ARE.

George Lucas is A PERSON.

Star Wars is a SAGA of MOVIES.

Lucas created SW, as you know, of course, and he was the one who created the concept of the force. So what he says ought to go.

So if he says greedo ALWAYS shot first and everyone was just hallucinating, or that he didn't have enought technical conditions to make he shoot first on ANH, that's the truth. Yeah, right.

 

Ep.I might have give us that explanation, but for over 20 years we were without midichlorians and everyone seemed just fine. Then all the sudden these midis come up and everything that made up the essential part of the movies, the magic and mystery, fffffft went out the window.

Boy, so midis RUINED SW?! rrriiiiggghhhttt. The Force is still plenty mysterous even with the midis. Heck, we don't even know what the midi's relationship to the Force is. Sure, Qui-Gon thought that they were the bridge between life forms and the Force but he also thought a different mind set about the Force in general.

 

As a general rule, I prefer a lame explantion than NO EXPLANATION.

 

Well, I wouldn't call it "lame" persay. I imagine ANY explaination would have gone over the same way. People didn't WANT an explaination, no matter how vague or minor, of the inner workings of the Force.

Personally, I had a bit of a problem with it at first but it grew on me, just like the whole "no father"/Chosen One stuff.

 

I don't understand how some people can say "ObiWan smiled because of this" or "No, he smiled because of that" as if it were some sort of known scientific fact. Heck, as far as we know he could be smiling cuz he passed gas, or he just remembered the time when he used the Force to make JarJar dance like a chicken. If somebody smiles, only they know why. There may be a probable reason, and we may have a good idea, but you don't know.

 

You see, if the Jedi were all-powerful with the force, the Sith would have never defeated them.

The Jedi were not aiming to become "all-powerful" with the force, though. And the Sith may have semmed to have "defeated" them...but not completely, since Luke, a Jedi, seemed to have overcome Palpatine's attacks and turned Mr. Baddie back to the light side, which resulted in the death of Palpy.

The point is that the Sith do not align themselves with the Jedi religion. Their conception of the force is different. And it also works very well.

Okay, so now you're saying that the Sith's devotion to the Dark Side is okay? That's it's all just fine and good? Sure it may have WORKED...to get more power for themselves at the expense of others.

War is a definite evil? So it should be avoided at all costs? Should the rebellion not wage war against the Empire? You see, things are not as clear as they might appear.

So you are all for war? I'm sure that's not what you mean, but still.

George Lucas is A PERSON.

Star Wars is a SAGA of MOVIES.

George Lucas CREATED the MOVIES. It's not like this saga just all the sudden popped up.
That's what I was refering to.

Boy, so midis RUINED SW?! rrriiiiggghhhttt. The Force is still plenty mysterous even with the midis. Heck, we don't even know what the midi's relationship to the Force is. Sure, Qui-Gon thought that they were the bridge between life forms and the Force but he also thought a different mind set about the Force in general.

Take a look at my signature...notice the quote by Sam Goldwyn...

I didn't say midis RUINED SW, I said they made the force seem like a down-to-earth thing with nothing very special about it.

Notice how, after that, I put down this paragraph: "But then again, if you think about it..."midichlorians" are supposed to be tiny beings or something with the force, right? The more midis there are, the more force powers. However, the movie didn't say that these pathetic midis were actually the force itself."

Apparently that is only a valid point when you like it?

Lucas did stick the lame midi explanation into Ep.I, but he also, fortunately, had Qui-Gon give us the benefit of doubt. But the thing is, a lot of people seem to be accepting the midi explanation as being "IT"...without remembering that midis were only supposed to be a part of it.

Okay, Delance, go ahead.

 

Well, I wouldn't call it "lame" persay.

That was the GENERAL RULE.

I imagine ANY explaination would have gone over the same way. People didn't WANT an explaination, no matter how vague or minor, of the inner workings of the Force.

On ANH they say the Force is... Well... a Force Field. That should be enought.

If they used the Midchlorian thing on 1977 maybe the saga would go so well.

Personally, I had a bit of a problem with it at first but it grew on me, just like the whole "no father"/Chosen One stuff.

This Chosen One thing Lucas made up is way past lame. It's uber-lame.

This is what happens when do everything alone and is surrounded by people who praise every little thing that comes out of your mouth, no matter how stupid it is.

 

Delance:

SW have almost nothing to do with Judeo-Christian religions beliefs. First of all, they talk to ghosts all the time. Second, their religion is dedicated to a FORCE FIELD that is generated by SIMBIOTIC MICRO-LIFE FORMS.

And you can find A LOT of elements from Eastern religions like Buddhism, Brahmanism, etc.

Please understand that those things have NOTHING to do with what I actually believe in. I?m just saying I don?t try to reflect those beliefs in Star Wars. When I say that there?s no Christianism references on SW I?m not saying anything ?against? Christianism.

You're saying that Star Wars is incompatible with Christian beliefs because, in Star Wars, the "religion is dedicated to a FORCE FIELD that is generated by SIMBIOTIC MICRO-LIFE FORMS."

But Buddhism and Brahaminism is JUST FINE?

How do midichlorians disqualify Christianity and NOT disqualify Buddhism?

Ultimately, I do think Star Wars teaches the pre-eminence of good over evil. If it was trying to teach a dualistic idea of balance between the two, it wouldn't have ended with good being victorious.

And such an idea, that good is stronger than evil, is more consistent with Christianity than with dualism. CERTAINLY, Star Wars isn't solely or primarily compatible with Christianity; but it is compatible to SOME degree.


The movie tells us that the force is a force field created by microorganisms. It makes several "magical" things possible, including afterlife, at least for some of them. That's it.

You ignore the fact that Qui-Gon believes the Force has a will (which I'll bring up again in a moment).


The Sith could use the force as much as the Jedi. The force had, itself, a dark side. The Sith didn't think that the dark side was a "corruption", they thought that it was the "TRUE NATURE" of the force. (Vader, ROTJ). More powerful, even.

Sure, they believe that, but they were wrong. Luke's single act of throwing away the lightsaber defeated the Dark Side within Anakin, which allowed Anakin to defeat the Emperor.


If one did only see the PT, they would think that the "right" side is the darkside, because it "won".

While the Light Side wilted in the prequel trilogy, it didn't DIE: there was still hope in Anakin's children.


This Chosen One thing Lucas made up is way past lame. It's uber-lame.

This is what happens when do everything alone and is surrounded by people who praise every little thing that comes out of your mouth, no matter how stupid it is.

Well, THAT'S a compelling argument.

If destiny is just fine in the classic trilogy, why isn't prophecy within the prequels? It gives further fuel to the fire of Anakin's pride. Not only is he VERY powerful as a Jedi (to the degree that he'll one day kill many of the other Jedi), but he is PROPHESIED as the most powerful Jedi.

That sort of thing would give anyone a swelled head.

Anyway, it seems that you dislike quite a bit from The Phantom Menace: midichlorians, the Chosen One prophecy, etc. But you ignore the OTHER huge revelation.

If Qui-Gon is right, the Force has a WILL. It not only guides your actions, it guides them toward an specific goal.

In order to have a will, the Force must ALSO have awareness of where things are and what must be done to change things. The Force is no longer JUST a force field, but a force field with a MIND.

 

Hay, lay off Lucas, he's a good man. Sure, I disagree with some of his decisions (like the whole love issue with the ages of Anakin and Padme in epI) but overall he's sounds like a great guy and a filming genius. Heck, watch some of the "making of" films with him in it. He's very soft spoken and he isn't rude or mean to his employees when he overrules their ideas. The only time I've seen him irritated was when the Jar Jar actor was bugging him at the dinner line after a long day of filming.

 

I am not attacking Lucas, I just don't think that some of his ideas on the PT are "pure genious".

Not everyone has to think that Ewoks, Mynoks, Jar Jar, Midchlorians, Chosen One prophecies are the greatest thing that were ever put on film. And they can still like SW.

 

You're saying that Star Wars is incompatible with Christian beliefs because, in Star Wars, the "religion is dedicated to a FORCE FIELD that is generated by SIMBIOTIC MICRO-LIFE FORMS."

That is correct, commander. Amongst other, many other things I pointed out.

But Buddhism and Brahaminism is JUST FINE?

Not "Just Fine". More compatible, yes.

How do midichlorians disqualify Christianity and NOT disqualify Buddhism?

It's not the Midis, but the other many, many things pointed before.

Good/Evil Balance.

That the magical forces of the universe have a GOOD and a EVIL side. Note: the same forces.

Christianity is not about ONE SINGLE force simultaneously either GOOD or EVIL. GOOD is STRONGER than EVIL, but also GOOD totally DIFFERENT from EVIL.

On STAR WARS, it's the FORCE that is at the same time GOOD and EVIL. The same force have two sides.

Ultimately, I do think Star Wars teaches the pre-eminence of good over evil. If it was trying to teach a dualistic idea of balance between the two, it wouldn't have ended with good being victorious.


The issue here is not who is "stronger", good or evil. But that the same "power" can have a light and a dark side. That it can be manipulated as well as manipulate.

Neither side of the force is stronger. Vader was always strong, regardless of the side he was.

Some lesser Jedi would also be a lesser Sith. Dooku was a great Sith because he was a great Jedi.

You ignore the fact that Qui-Gon believes the Force has a will (which I'll bring up again in a moment).

And you ignore that Chewbacca is brown.

Sure, they believe that, but they were wrong. Luke's single act of throwing away the lightsaber defeated the Dark Side within Anakin, which allowed Anakin to defeat the Emperor.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. The fact that Luke was being killed did it. Vader was reluctant, he only destroyed Palpatine when he said "Now, young Skywalker, you'll die".

It was Anakin's love for his son, not the "light side". The light side of the force had 20 years to act on Vader and did nothing at all. Obi-Wan could not help Luke, even if he was "more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine". Anakin made his own destiny, it wasn't the "force" controlling him.

While the Light Side wilted in the prequel trilogy, it didn't DIE: there was still hope in Anakin's children.

On each and every movie, the Dark Side has some sort of victory over the Light Side.

TPM: One Jedi and One Sith are killed.

AotC: Jedi Knights die by the Dozens, One Sith Lord defeats 2 Jedi Knights in a roll and have a draw with the STRONGEST of all Jedi.

EP3: Obi-Wan defeats Anakin, but Anakin turns to the dark side (a dark side victory) and Jedi order is all but extinct on the hands of the Sith.

ANH: Vader kills Obi-Wan

ESB: Vader defeats Luke

ROTJ: Luke defeats Vader using THE DARK SIDE, Palptine zaps Luke, and Vader destroys Palpatine. Sure, then he was Anakin, but he was light side but a few seconds before he destroyed the Emperor.

And Vader did it by physically throwing Palpatine on a big hole, not by using some light side trick he learned from Yoda.

Anyway, it seems that you dislike quite a bit from The Phantom Menace: midichlorians, the Chosen One prophecy, etc.

I don't "quite dislike it". It's like Mynoks, Ewoks, Jar Jar. It's part of the movies. Just not the best part.

But you ignore the OTHER huge revelation.
If Qui-Gon is right, the Force has a WILL.


A major point of this thread was that Obi-Wan's smile on ANH was a big statement about how the force controls everyone's destinies.

Well, Qui-Gon was the Padawan of A SITH LORD and ordered his Padawan to train Anakin. But Obi-Wan didn't do a good job, and eventually destroyed Anakin, that then became ANOTHER SITH LORD. Later, QC's padawan was killed by THIS SITH LORD. QG himself was also killed by A SITH LORD.

I thing Qui-Gon is great, personally, but maybe he was little bit wrong about the "will of the force",

 

The Jedi were not aiming to become "all-powerful" with the force, though. And the Sith may have semmed to have "defeated" them...but not completely, since Luke, a Jedi, seemed to have overcome Palpatine's attacks and turned Mr. Baddie back to the light side, which resulted in the death of Palpy.

The Sith totally, utterly, completely defeated the Jedi as a group. Sure, there was 2 Jedi and 2 potential Jedi hiding. But the Jedi Order was destroyed. Only 3 movies later it would return. In a movie called ?Return of the Jedi?.

Okay, so now you're saying that the Sith's devotion to the Dark Side is okay? That's it's all just fine and good? Sure it may have WORKED...to get more power for themselves at the expense of others.

No, I am not saying that at all.

They had a different conception about the force than the Jedi. A conception that also worked. The JEDI conception of the force was not absolute.

Someone might make music I don't like. But it will still be music, and it will still exist. If I recognize the fact that it exists, I'm not saying I like it.

Because the force have 2 sides, one DARK, one LIGHT. If you are evil, you think the DARK SIDE is correct. If you are good, you think the LIGHT SIDE is correct.

So you are all for war? I'm sure that's not what you mean, but still.

That's has nothing to do with what I've said at all. The point was that things are not cleary divided into GOOD and EVIL.

George Lucas CREATED the MOVIES. It's not like this saga just all the sudden popped up.
That's what I was refering to.

They are still different from one antother. And Lucas is not the sole responsable for the Saga?s storyline.

But that?s besides the ponit. What I said is that Luca?s personal percetion of the reality, the perception of the reality present in the movies, and reality itself are three very different things.

 

Sorry, double post.

 

You're saying that Star Wars is incompatible with Christian beliefs because, in Star Wars, the "religion is dedicated to a FORCE FIELD that is generated by SIMBIOTIC MICRO-LIFE FORMS."

That is correct, commander. Amongst other, many other things I pointed out.

But Buddhism and Brahaminism is JUST FINE?

Not "Just Fine". More compatible, yes.

How do midichlorians disqualify Christianity and NOT disqualify Buddhism?

It's not the Midis, but the other many, many things pointed before.

From the quote above, it certainly LOOKS LIKE midichlorians disqualify Christianity.


Anyway, while I grant that the Force can be used for good and evil, I don't think it is necessarily "at the same time GOOD and EVIL."

After all, the Force may have a will, and that will (if it exists and is the least bit consistent) must work towards either a good end or an evil end.

This point is NOT as irrelevant as the color of Chewbacca's fur.


Certainly, the Light Side of the Force didn't control Anakin at the end of ROTJ, but it doesn't control people in that way anyway. It was Anakin's love for Luke that caused him to rturn to the Light Side, but I contend that love IS the Light Side.

If the Dark Side is defined by fear and hate, the Light Side is defined by courage and love. Luke showed courage by throwing away his lightsaber; Anakin showed love by saving his son.


Yes, Luke nearly defeats Vader using the Dark Side, but he almost BECAME Vader in the process. He realized this, and stopped himself before following through: the Dark Side had NO victory in the throne room.

A major point of this thread was that Obi-Wan's smile on ANH was a big statement about how the force controls everyone's destinies.

Well, Qui-Gon was the Padawan of A SITH LORD and ordered his Padawan to train Anakin. But Obi-Wan didn't do a good job, and eventually destroyed Anakin, that then became ANOTHER SITH LORD. Later, QC's padawan was killed by THIS SITH LORD. QG himself was also killed by A SITH LORD.

I thing Qui-Gon is great, personally, but maybe he was little bit wrong about the "will of the force", unless it's the "will of the dark side of the force".

And if that doesn't convince you, remember that when QC was talking about the "will of the force", he was doing so a leg-shaving device.

What does a Jedi comlink have anything to do with anything?

(It's pretty clear that Dooku wasn't a Sith Lord when he was training Qui-Gon. There can be only two, and Darth Maul had not yet been killed.)

You must look at the BIG PICTURE. When Qui-Gon first found Anakin, the Sith were well on their way to controlling the galaxy. By the time Anakin died - and because of Anakin's DIRECT actions - the Sith menace was finally destroyed.

Certainly, it was a costly road to victory. But, first, part of that may reflect the heroes' free will: the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan's hubris and Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

Second, who says the road to redemption is easy? Christianity teaches that God became a man who willingly submitted to a brutal execution in order to save man. In the midst of seeming utter defeat came total victory.

(And you say the two are utterly incompatible...)

In order to have a will, the Force must ALSO have awareness of where things are and what must be done to change things.

Must? No, it could. But there are several other possibilities. Maybe it's a reflex of the collective will of the Jedi. Like a collective mind. Maybe it's something else. You don't know.

It doesn't matter. That's the Jedi Religion, not the "force" as force field. Those are two different things.

The Sith also had a religion. It was not all wrong, because that religion was also about zapping Jedis, and that part worked just fine.

If the will of the Force was "the collective will of the Jedi," it would cease to be the will of the Force.

Either way, I can understand why you're so quick to disregard the

 

Anyway, while I grant that the Force can be used for good and evil, I don't think it is necessarily "at the same time GOOD and EVIL."

After all, the Force may have a will, and that will (if it exists and is the least bit consistent) must work towards either a good end or an evil end.

This point is NOT as irrelevant as the color of Chewbacca's fur.

Dude, Chebacca?s fur is way more relevant then that.

Anyway, you said yourself. The force MAY have a will. It?s a possibility. That?s what I said.

Certainly, the Light Side of the Force didn't control Anakin at the end of ROTJ, but it doesn't control people in that way anyway. It was Anakin's love for Luke that caused him to rturn to the Light Side, but I contend that love IS the Light Side.

Love leads to the Light side. But it was not the force controlling him. That?s just what I said previously, so of course I agree.

If the Dark Side is defined by fear and hate, the Light Side is defined by courage and love. Luke showed courage by throwing away his lightsaber; Anakin showed love by saving his son.

Curiously, Luke threw away his light saber because he FEARED he would go to the Dark Side.

Obi-Wan and Yoda told him to KILL both Vader and the Emperor.

Dagobah.
Luke: ?But I can?t kill my own father?
Obi-Wan: ?Then the Emperor has already won?

But that?s a different point.

Yes, Luke nearly defeats Vader using the Dark Side, but he almost BECAME Vader in the process. He realized this, and stopped himself before following through: the Dark Side had NO victory in the throne room.

Yes, the dark side has a victory. On the Luke vs. Vader Duel, VADER love his son and can?t attack him, so that?s the light side. LUKE hates Vader and goes uses his hatred to defeat him, so that?s the dark side. And Luke defeats Vader, using the DARK SIDE. That?s why he threw away his lightsaber.

When it comes to saber duels, we have 3 on the OT, and all 3 of them are won by the Dark Side, against the light side.

Sure, the ultimate victory is from Vader destroying the Emperor, but we all know that. But just because Vader killed Palpatine doesn?t make it all compatible with Chrisnianity.

What does a Jedi comlink have anything to do with anything?

(It's pretty clear that Dooku wasn't a Sith Lord when he was training Qui-Gon. There can be only two, and Darth Maul had not yet been killed.)

You must look at the BIG PICTURE. When Qui-Gon first found Anakin, the Sith were well on their way to controlling the galaxy. By the time Anakin died - and because of Anakin's DIRECT actions - the Sith menace was finally destroyed.

Certainly, it was a costly road to victory. But, first, part of that may reflect the heroes' free will: the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan's hubris and Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

Second, who says the road to redemption is easy? Christianity teaches that God became a man who willingly submitted to a brutal execution in order to save man. In the midst of seeming utter defeat came total victory.

(And you say the two are utterly incompatible...)

You can make both of them seem a little bit alike only the most shallow theological point of view possible.

What you have to understand is that ?Good wins over evil?, ?Redemption through suffering? are very COMMON on HUMAN MITHOLOGY.

You will find myths about this stuff on virtually every single human culture that ever existed on Earth. Myths and legends are frequently about those 2 things. That?s what GL was aiming for in the first place.

Star Wars is much more inspired on Greek Mythology then on any other, to begin with.

In order to make it remotely compatible to Christianity, you have to ignore that that the FORCE has TWO SIDES. You can?t deny this fact, because are called SIDES. LIGHT SIDE and DARK SIDE. Both Sides complete a Whole. So the Force has a dual nature, both GOOD and BAD. It makes it COMPLETLY IMCOMPATIBLE with Christianity.

No

 

"Wow, Look at the size of that thing!"

Sorry, couldn?t resist making an star wars quote. Those are big message blocks. Is anyone engaged in this discussion actually still reading this?

 

In order to make it remotely compatible to Christianity, you have to ignore that that the FORCE has TWO SIDES. You can?t deny this fact, because are called SIDES. LIGHT SIDE and DARK SIDE. Both Sides complete a Whole. So the Force has a dual nature, both GOOD and BAD. It makes it COMPLETLY IMCOMPATIBLE with Christianity...

The force still has two sides, one good, one bad. Nothing you can say will change this fact.

In Christianity, you can?t have the same thing. It?s incompatible to the utmost level.

How are all the other ways in which Star Wars and Christianity align irrelevant?

You don't explain that: you simply assert that this point - and this one point alone - separates the two by an unbreachable gulf.

At any rate, I think I understand what you're saying: Star Wars teaches dualism, and Christianity doesn't.

On that point you're wrong.

For dualism to exist, there has to be two equal and opposite sides. That's not the case:

- The Light Side of the Force is stronger, because the Light Side ULTIMATELY won. You're wrong that the Dark Side won all three OT lightsaber duels (Obi-Wan CHOSE to be killed), and you're missing the point by focusing on the duels: at the end of the Star Wars saga, every Sith was dead, but one Jedi was left standing to rebuild and renew the Order.

- The Light Side of the Force is more permanent, because death isn't always the final word. Are there any filmed instances of Sith spirits interacting with the living? No, but we do see three Jedi spirits at the end of ROTJ: Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin.

- The Light Side of the Force is more natural, because there are no silly rules about there being only two Jedi. The Sith had that rule because, otherwise, they'd destroy themselves; they had to create this artificial structure of one master and one apprentice because the Dark Side of the Force can sustain nothing larger.

Above all this, you miss a few key points on Christianity.

First, consider Numbers 20:9-12 (RSV):

And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?"

And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his rod twice; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their cattle.

And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."

Moses rebelled against God, but he was still able to miraculously draw water from a rock.

When Satan tempted Jesus Christ to turn a rock into bread (Matthew 4:1-4 et al.), the implication is that He could perform a miracle outside of the will of God the Father.

And consider Matthew 24:23-24:

(Jesus said,) "Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Christ hear teaches that false prophets will be able to perform miraculous wonders.

To compare this to Star Wars, it's possible (and I believe it to be the case) that the Sith abuse their Force powers: they're able to use their abilities against the will of the Living Force.

THAT is the Dark Side of the Force: an abuse, an act outside of what the Force intended.

And that is why "balance" is NOT equal power between the Sith and the Jedi (such balance cannot be long maintained), but the eradication of the Sith: the total victory of the Light Side - the proper side - of the Force.

 

I just wanted to jump in amake a couple of quick, smei-related points.

The main being Midi-chlorians. They do not create the force, and they are not the force. They are simply a conduit for the force to work through and be used by Jedi/Siths. They are seperate from the force. An example I always think about is the internet and your modem. Your modem isn't the internet, its simply the device by which you access the internet. Midis are the Jedi's modem.

And two, this thread has given me hope for this place. I would have sworn that a religious dicussion this big could not have existed without resorting to personal attacks and flaming. This one hasn't. That is very cool.

 

But how does that make Star Wars more compatible with Christianity than with most other faiths?

What Lucas did, in my opinion, was to grab a bunch of elements commons on human mythology (of course it isn't a mythology to you when you believe in it), and used it to compose a new universe.

The way Star Wars put the father/son relationships disputes is something we see a lot in Greek Mythology. Father and Sons of Greek gods were frequently fighting and killing each other.

Zeus became the supreme god when he defeated his father, Chronus. Chronus himself did rise to power after defeating his own father - Zeus's grandfather - Uranus.

Anakin was heavily damaged by his father-figure, Obi-Wan. Later, he would destroy him. Vader also killed his other Master, Palpatine. He deposed the supreme ruler.

Vader and Luke did fight on every single movie of the OT. Two times with Sabers, and one with Starfighters.

Zeus was also known as Kosmetas, Soter and Polieos. Those means:

Kosmetas (orderer).
Vader wanted to restore ORDER to the Galaxy

Soter (savior).
Vader saved the Jedi and the Galaxy when he destroyed Palpatine.

Polieos (overseer of the polis - city).
Vader wanted to RULE the Galaxy.

This is just a small sample. The parallels of SW and Mythology are gigantic. This happens because mythologies have a lot in common.

Now, for the specific point of Dualism. The force has two sides. The dark side is a natural one. Fear, hatred, suffering, all this leads to the dark side. And those are common human emotions.

The Sith Order is something, the Dark Side is another.

Anyway, I guess this is all a matter of interpretation, in the end.

 

I just wanted to jump in amake a couple of quick, smei-related points.

The main being Midi-chlorians. They do not create the force, and they are not the force. They are simply a conduit for the force to work through and be used by Jedi/Siths. They are seperate from the force. An example I always think about is the internet and your modem. Your modem isn't the internet, its simply the device by which you access the internet. Midis are the Jedi's modem.

And two, this thread has given me hope for this place. I would have sworn that a religious dicussion this big could not have existed without resorting to personal attacks and flaming. This one hasn't. That is very cool.

So if I change the previous statement to "The force is a force field that use microorganisms for conduits" it would be all fine?

Yeah, it's fine to have a discussion without going into a flame war.

But I don't think it's a religious discussion per se, but rather a discussion about Star Wars that involves religion.

 

But how does that make Star Wars more compatible with Christianity than with most other faiths?

I wouldn't say more compatible, but I would at least say that Christianity and Star Wars are somewhat compatible: I simply reject your assessment that the two are "COMPLETLY IMCOMPATIBLE."


Now, for the specific point of Dualism. The force has two sides. The dark side is a natural one. Fear, hatred, suffering, all this leads to the dark side. And those are common human emotions.

Sure, but the Dark Side - hatred in particular - leads to death and destruction. The Force is created and sustained by life itself. Completely embracing the Dark Side ultimately ends life and thus destroys the Force. It bites the hand that feeds it.

On the other hand, I believe the Light Side sustains itself: love perpetuates life.

The Light Side of the Force is analogous to symbiosis; the Dark Side, to parasitism. While both are equally natural, the former is advantagous to the host while the latter ultimately kills the host.

But, yeah, a LOT of this is based on both interpretation and what individual elements are emphasized. For that reason, I'm reluctant to say that any religion is wholly compatible OR incompatible.