Star Wars and Christianity

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Obi-wan-Damion, Oct 20, 2002.

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  1. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Bubba, those are some good points! Your posts are very well thought out.


    It was Anakin's love for his son, not the "light side". The light side of the force had 20 years to act on Vader and did nothing at all. Obi-Wan could not help Luke, even if he was "more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine". Anakin made his own destiny, it wasn't the "force" controlling him.

    THE FORCE DOES NOT CONTROLL PEOPLE, IT GUIDES THEM. There is such a thing as a FREE WILL, are you familiar with it? ;)
    :)

    Anakin saved Luke because he went back to the light side. The Sith, who are on the Dark Side, don't let themselves love anyone. Hack, they probably even cease to love at all. Look at Palpatine.

    So the lightside had 20 years to go to work on Vader huh? Well Vader wasn't exactly going to decide, "well, I'm a Sith, I'm totally on the darkside, and the dark lord is my master, so I'm going to go on the lightside now." Vader wouldn't have gone on the light side. He was devoted to the power of the darkside.

    Obi-Wan could have helped Luke if he had wished to, but he chose not to because Luke had the right to choose his own path. Luke can't have his mentor babying him all the time.

    Luke defeats Vader using THE DARK SIDE, Palptine zaps Luke, and Vader destroys Palpatine. Sure, then he was Anakin, but he was light side but a few seconds before he destroyed the Emperor.

    And Vader did it by physically throwing Palpatine on a big hole, not by using some light side trick he learned from Yoda.


    But he was on the lightside. If he hadn't been, he would not have thrown Palpy down the hatch at all. Those seconds counted. He may have destroyed Palpy physically, but does that matter? He did it while on the lightside.

    A major point of this thread was that Obi-Wan's smile on ANH was a big statement about how the force controls everyone's destinies.

    Aaaugh, I thought we'd cleared that up!!!!
    Obi-Wan did NOT smile because the force controls people's destinies. He smiled because he knew there was a force, though Han insisted there wasn't. You are the only person I've ever seen who's insisted otherwise.

  2. Darth_Banal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 6
    I haven't read every post, but I thought I'd throw this snowball into the fire as well:

    I noticed twice so far Padme uses the expression "pray" in regards to the future of the Republic:

    -"I pray you will bring sanity and compassion back to the Senate"

    -"Let's pray that day never comes" (response to Jamilla about Democracy not working)

    I know that prayer does not necessarily ID someone with a certain religion or belief system, do you think what Padme says is just a figure of speech? Or is there something behind her saying it in reference to the Governmental process? Is there any similarity to Vader's comments to Lando "I am altering our deal, pray I don't alter it further"?

    While I understand that prayer is definitely not uniquely Christian, how do you guys take this to mean in the SW universe, in conjuction with the dialogue about Hell and Angels?
  3. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Whoah, I've never thought of that.

    Even if that is just a "figure of speech", figures of speech have to come from somewhere.
  4. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Bubba, those are some good points! Your posts are very well thought out.

    You reply to me but praise him? :)

    THE FORCE DOES NOT CONTROLL PEOPLE, IT GUIDES THEM. There is such a thing as a FREE WILL, are you familiar with it?

    Yes, this is what I have been saying all along.

    The force guides people. The light side guides them to do good, the dark side guides them to do evil. Yes. Once you step into the dark side, forever IT WILL DOMINATE YOUR DESTINY.

    Anakin saved Luke because he went back to the light side. The Sith, who are on the Dark Side, don't let themselves love anyone. Hack, they probably even cease to love at all. Look at Palpatine.

    Vader was never completely on the dark side, that's why Luke could turn him back.

    That's why, for three movies in a row, Vader didn't kill Luke, Leia, Han and Chewbacca. He had 3 nice chances to do it, but didn't. :)

    So the lightside had 20 years to go to work on Vader huh? Well Vader wasn't exactly going to decide, "well, I'm a Sith, I'm totally on the darkside, and the dark lord is my master, so I'm going to go on the lightside now." Vader wouldn't have gone on the light side. He was devoted to the power of the darkside.

    I agree. Actually, didn't I say that? :) It wasn't the light side that made him kill Palpatine. It was Palpy zapping Luke. Going to the light side was more of a consequence.

    Obi-Wan could have helped Luke if he had wished to, but he chose not to because Luke had the right to choose his own path. Luke can't have his mentor babying him all the time.

    I don't think Obi-Wan did trust Luke that much, or cared about his choices.

    He says "USE THE FORCE!", not "You can use the force now, if you are feeling like it"

    Obi-Wan doesn't say "Luke, excuse me. Obi-Wan's voce here. You have the CHOICE to use your feelings and turn off the targeting computer. Thank you"

    He doesn't appear to him on Hoth and goes: "Wow, what a bad Wampa. Are you feeling all right? Don't worry, your friend Solo will be right here to cover you with hot smelly entrails. Anyway, you have the CHOICE to go to dagobah and train with Yoda. BTW, he's a small green guy, so please treat him well".

    He lied to Luke when he had to. Obi-Wan probably couldn't help Luke because he was, well, A GHOST.

    If Jedi Ghosts could do ANY GOOD AT ALL, then Palpatine would have been vanquished long before ROTJ. :)

    But he was on the lightside.

    Yes, he was. I didn't say he wasn't. :)

    If he hadn't been, he would not have thrown Palpy down the hatch at all.

    Aham... Why not exactly?

    Sith Lords are known to kill each other. In fact, Sith Lords are so prone into killing each other that they had to come up with very low membership limit of 2.

    As a matter of fact there have been a very large thread here about how Vader was planning to kill Palpatine all along. And it wasn't ME saying THAT. :)

    Those seconds counted. He may have destroyed Palpy physically, but does that matter? He did it while on the lightside.

    Yes, he was on the lightside. The fact that his ghost was along Yoda and Obi-Wan is clear about it.

    Aaaugh, I thought we'd cleared that up!!!!

    People that own cats usually say this. :D

    Obi-Wan did NOT smile because the force controls people's destinies. He smiled because he knew there was a force, though Han insisted there wasn't. You are the only person I've ever seen who's insisted otherwise.

    How did you know why Obi-Wan was smiling about? Maybe he was thinking how good it was that there were no Gungans around this time.
  5. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    I know that prayer does not necessarily ID someone with a certain religion or belief system, do you think what Padme says is just a figure of speech? Or is there something behind her saying it in reference to the Governmental process? Is there any similarity to Vader's comments to Lando "I am altering our deal, pray I don't alter it further"?

    While I understand that prayer is definitely not uniquely Christian, how do you guys take this to mean in the SW universe, in conjuction with the dialogue
    about Hell and Angels?


    First of all, Prayer, Hell and Angels are not uniquely Christian concepts either.

    What you have to understand is that they don't speak english in Star Wars. It's some other language. It's only shown in english so people can understand. They take the words in the original SW language and "translate" it to english. Just like you see Germans, Russians and Romans speaking enlgish. Do you really think that the Roman emperor would speak enlgish?

    But that's besides the point. Star Wars was created by people. People that put a lot of human mythology on Star Wars. They took stuff from lots of different cultures.

    You can express those sentences you mentioned, as well as the other ones of this thread on nearly all languages of all cultures of earth.

    "Hell", "Pray" and "Angel" are concepts common in several different cultures and languages. Just like "hate", "fear", "love".

    Or "Politician", "Senate" and "Democracy".

    Now, democracy originates from greek. The word, and the concept. It's not something common to all cultures and in fact, for a lot of time, it was quite specific. This means that the people on SW are greeks?

    And what about the "REPUBLIC"? RES PUBLICA. This means that they also know the romans?

    And what about the Art Deco buildings on Coruscant? This means that the architects of that planet went to learn on Earth on the 1930's?

    It could go on and on. References to Earth-things that could never happen on another galaxy is something SW has a lot.
  6. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Even if that is just a "figure of speech", figures of speech have to come from somewhere.

    As they do. From the people who wrote it. Just like everything else on SW is a reference to something. Amidala dresses and make ups on TPM are inspired on a specific culture.

    Look at Naboo. That's the renascence style. Venice in the 16th century. But that doesn't mean that the nubians are actually italians.
  7. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Aham... Why not exactly?

    Sith Lords are known to kill each other. In fact, Sith Lords are so prone into killing each other that they had to come up with very low membership limit of 2.


    Vader killed Palpy in order to save his son. He did this because he had gone back on the lightside again. If he had still been on the darkside he would have let Palpy kill Luke.

    The force guides people. The light side guides them to do good, the dark side guides them to do evil. Yes. Once you step into the dark side, forever IT WILL DOMINATE YOUR DESTINY.

    That's right! It will DOMINATE your destiny, but it will not BE your destiny.

    It wasn't the light side that made him kill Palpatine. It was Palpy zapping Luke. Going to the light side was more of a consequence.

    The whole point of that scene was that Vader went to the lightside to save his son. He didn't save Luke while still on the darkside, and then the lightside came in afterwards. No; if he had been on the darkside he would've let Luke die.

    I don't think Obi-Wan did trust Luke that much, or cared about his choices.

    That statement contradicts the character of Ben Kenobi, I think. Obi-Wan did trust him, and heck yes, he cared. If he really was so heartless would he have bothered to save Luke from the sandpeople in the first place?

    Ben had to tell Luke where to go, and what to do. If he hadn't told Luke to trust his feelings, would Luke have blown up the Death Star? Would Luke have ever recieved the training to become a Jedi if Ben hadn't told him to go to Dagobah? Ben had to tell him what to do once in awhile, otherwise the whole history of the galaxy would have ended up differently.

    If Jedi Ghosts could do ANY GOOD AT ALL, then Palpatine would have been vanquished long before ROTJ.

    Then we wouldn't have the SW Trilogy in the first place! [face_laugh]

    How did you know why Obi-Wan was smiling about? Maybe he was thinking how good it was that there were no Gungans around this time.

    Because that was the whole point of that scene! That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

    As they do. From the people who wrote it.

    The people who wrote it got that from somewhere, too.

  8. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Vader killed Palpy in order to save his son. He did this because he had gone back on the lightside again. If he had still been on the darkside he would have let Palpy kill Luke.

    Vader wanted to kill Palpatine on TESB. He probably wanted to kill Palpatine all along, but knew he would die in the process. Saving Luke is what prompted him to the sacrifice, yes, but I think he would just take any chance he had.

    But that's besides the point. He went back to the light side, and saved Luke.

    That's right! It will DOMINATE your destiny, but it will not BE your destiny.

    What? :D

    Ben had to tell Luke where to go, and what to do. If he hadn't told Luke to trust his feelings, would Luke have blown up the Death Star? Would Luke have ever recieved the training to become a Jedi if Ben hadn't told him to go to Dagobah? Ben had to tell him what to do once in awhile, otherwise the whole history of the galaxy would have ended up differently.

    I know Obi-Wan cared for Luke, he was not heartless. But he didn't trust Luke completly, not after what happened to Anakin.

    The people who wrote it got that from somewhere, too.

    Yes, and I wrote two big messages about it. Please don't ignore them. :)

    It's the same thing with Venician buildings Buildings, Art Deco style, 70's hairstyles and British accents.
  9. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Certainly, Vader probably wanted to kill Palpatine as early as ESB, but here's the difference: at that point, he wanted to replace him as the leader of the Sith and the ruler of the galaxy. When he actually did kill Palpatine, he did so as a rejection of everything the Sith stood for.

    Anyway, I see what your saying about art deco, etc. and I certainly don't think that the use of words like "pray" and "hell" indicate that the Star Wars galaxy's religion(s) were identical to human religions.

    BUT I think the architecture of Naboo (particularly compared to the anti-septic lines of Kamino and the Death Star) indicates an artistic eye - that the Naboo actually care how they're buildings look.

    Likewise, the use of "hell" and "pray" - even as figures of speech - indicate that some religions within the GFFA believe in a punitive afterlife and communication with the Almighty.
  10. Darth_Prozac Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    Some of you guys and gals need to study language a little bit more.

    The word pray doesn't have anything to do with religion, necessarily. It's just a word. The word tithe is in the Bible too but it wasn't invented by Christians or Jews.

    The concept of Hell was around long before Christianity was and probably longer than Judaism. Like somebody already said, the Norse, Greek, Roman, Hindu, Buddhist, and even many Native American religions all have a concept like Hell.
    Actually the popular concept of hell is from a fictional book! The Hell in the Bible is very different from Dante's Inferno.
  11. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Certainly, Vader probably wanted to kill Palpatine as early as ESB, but here's the difference: at that point, he wanted to replace him as the leader of the Sith and the ruler of the galaxy. When he actually did kill Palpatine, he did so as a rejection of everything the Sith stood for.

    I agree. Vader knew that he Palpatine would probably kill if he tried anything, so that's why he never even tried.

    Even worst, mutilated, weakened, and without his lightsaber, he didn't stand much of a chance. He knew that when he would walk a few meters to throw Palpy in the hole, that he would be mortally wounded.

    Anyway, I see what your saying about art deco, etc. and I certainly don't think that the use of words like "pray" and "hell" indicate that the Star Wars galaxy's religion(s) were identical to human religions.

    Thank you. :)

    BUT I think the architecture of Naboo (particularly compared to the anti-septic lines of Kamino and the Death Star) indicates an artistic eye - that the Naboo actually care how they're buildings look.

    I think that was the idea too. And that the Nubians were a peaceful, non-industrial (maybe pos-industrial) culture.

    Likewise, the use of "hell" and "pray" - even as figures of speech - indicate that some religions within the GFFA believe in a punitive afterlife and communication with the Almighty.

    There's no "Almighty" in Star Wars as we have here. The "FORCE" is the only religion, but the force is part of everything. The "FORCE" is not totally exteral to their physical universe, and, most importantly, they don't see the force as the "Creator".

    But some commons concepts like "good", "bad", "angel", "hell", are probably existent on the SW universe.

    Keep in mind that those words can have a lot of different meanings...
  12. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, I was around back when ANH first came out [1977, I was 18 years old at the time]. I had probably every copy of Starlog and any other magazine that talked about the films at the time. I collected these until the Return of the Jedi had come and gone. I read every interview with GL that was humanly possible for one person to read in an age where the magazine rack was the closest you could come to multi-tasking. And I remember with clarity GL clearly saying, repeatedly, that the religion of Star Wars was a mixture of judeo-christianity and zen buddhism. It's pointless to continue arguing this.
  13. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Actually, I was around back when ANH first came out [1977, I was 18 years old at the time]. I had probably every copy of Starlog and any other magazine that talked about the films at the time. I collected these until the Return of the Jedi had come and gone. I read every interview with GL that was humanly possible for one person to read in an age where the magazine rack was the closest you could come to multi-tasking. And I remember with clarity GL clearly saying, repeatedly, that the religion of Star Wars was a mixture of judeo-christianity and zen buddhism. It's pointless to continue arguing this.

    He didn't mean this literally, you know. He didn't mean to say that people on SW beleived in God, Jesus and Buddah.

    The force religion got elements from those religion's beliefs, and many other elements.

    SW storyline is full of references, as previosly pointed out.
  14. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Naturally. It doesn't do any good though to say it isn't part of it when he said he did research by attending christian churches in his community at the time, reading texts on the subject, as well as on the subject of eastern religions and zen buddhism. So, the "religion" of Star Wars is based in part on christianity. It's in there, so what? Get over it. :D
  15. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    There's no "Almighty" in Star Wars as we have here. The "FORCE" is the only religion, but the force is part of everything. The "FORCE" is not totally exteral to their physical universe, and, most importantly, they don't see the force as the "Creator".

    I think you're overreaching: there's little evidence of a belief in the Almighty, but you can't use that to say that there ISN'T such a belief.

    And it's a stretch to say that, because there's little evidence of another religion, the Force is the ONLY religion.

    There's the obvious counter-example of the Ewoks worshipping Threepio, but there's also the fact that Cliegg Lars believed Shmi was in a "better place" - something that isn't explicitly part of "Force-worship."

    (Besides, it's not at all clear that Jedi "worship" the Force as a religion.)
  16. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3

    I think you're overreaching: there's little evidence of a belief in the Almighty, but you can't use that to say that there ISN'T such a belief.

    And it's a stretch to say that, because there's little evidence of another religion, the Force is the ONLY religion.

    There's the obvious counter-example of the Ewoks worshipping Threepio, but there's also the fact that Cliegg Lars believed Shmi was in a "better place" - something that isn't explicitly part of "Force-worship."

    (Besides, it's not at all clear that Jedi "worship" the Force as a religion.)


    You are correct. The above comment is restricted to what we know of the Jedi Religion. By the way Tarkin speaks of it on ROTJ, it is something restricted to the Jedi Order. Vader was supposed to be all there was left of it. It's only reasonable to beleive that other religions do exist.
  17. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Naturally. It doesn't do any good though to say it isn't part of it when he said he did research by attending christian churches in his community at the time, reading texts on the subject, as well as on the subject of eastern religions and zen buddhism. So, the "religion" of Star Wars is based in part on christianity. It's in there, so what? Get over it.

    Get over it? :) Man, I wasn't saying that the Jedi Religion didn't get elements of Christianity. It has, as much as it has from other religions as well. The references are quite obvious, also.

    George Lucas is all about the Power of the Myth.

    My original point is that we have no evidence that the people on SW Know about Christianity.

    I stand by it.

    Just like they never went to Britan and speak in British Accents, and they never studied Terran Architecture and their buildings are Art Deco, they don't know Italy but Naboo looks like Venice. :D
  18. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Oh I agree. They know nothing about christianity or buddhism. It's called the Force, but it is based on christianity and buddhism

    EDIT: It's also based in part on Judaism. So really "judeo-christianity and zen buddhism" is the more appropriate definition.
  19. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Christianity IS BASED on Judaism. :)
  20. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, I know. I brought up the fact it is also based on Judaism because there are two separate and distinct parts of Anakin and Luke's life that mimic the differences between those two beliefs.
  21. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Didn't know about that.

    But *please* the "Anakin had no father" thing was just a bizarre movie from Lucas. That and Midchlorians. It was SO BAD that he abandoned this thing entirely on AotC. Let's just pretend it never happened.

    GL might even be smart enought to ERASE this stuff from the new releases on 2005. Delete and tone-down gungans, jar jar, etc.
  22. razorsaces Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2002
    star 1
    Oh, please, Jar Jar is just a scape goat for anyone that find Episode I to be disappointing to ANY degree. Can you honestly say that you came out of Episode I bitching about Jar Jar? I think people only picked up on Jar Jar slamming after a individual (or small group) made a big stink about it. Ideas are infectous like a virus. :)
  23. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    But *please* the "Anakin had no father" thing was just a bizarre movie from Lucas. That and Midchlorians. It was SO BAD that he abandoned this thing entirely on AotC. Let's just pretend it never happened.

    Even if it was "just a bizarre move" on his part, we can't simply ignore it. Sure, neither was explicitly mentioned in AOTC, but so what? Both were used to establish that Anakin is the Chosen One; there's no need to bring them up during AOTC.

    Besides, they DID re-emphasize the Chosen One prophecy, and Lucas has NEVER publically backtracked on either issue.
  24. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    That's right! It will DOMINATE your destiny, but it will not BE your destiny.

    What?


    Ha ha! When I was writing that I had the sneaking suspicion that I hadn't phrased it correctly, and now I find that I was right.
    I meant that while the darkside will be a huge part of a dark user's life, there could still be a chance for the lightside to come
    in.

    Yes, and I wrote two big messages about it. Please don't ignore them.

    I wasn't ignoring them; sorry if it seemed like it! :)

    And I remember with clarity GL clearly saying, repeatedly, that the religion of Star Wars was a mixture of judeo-christianity and zen buddhism. It's pointless to continue arguing this.

    [face_laugh] Maybe you're right!

    But *please* the "Anakin had no father" thing was just a bizarre movie from Lucas. That and Midchlorians.

    This may seem incredible, but at last I totally, completely agree with you on a point!! [face_laugh] *fireworks go off*

    My friends and I all like to say that Anakin's father died while Shmi was pregnant, and that the "no father" thing never existed. You may not be able to ignore the Chosen One prophecy, but you can try! [face_mischief]

    I must say, though, that I sometimes think that maybe it was Luke, and not Anakin, who actually was the Chosen One. I don't see how Anakin brought balance to the force. Unless it was by his redemption in ROTJ, somehow.

  25. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Oh, please, Jar Jar is just a scape goat for anyone that find Episode I to be disappointing to ANY degree. Can you honestly say that you came out of Episode I bitching about Jar Jar? I think people only picked up on Jar Jar slamming after a individual (or small group) made a big stink about it. Ideas are infectous like a virus.

    Dude, I was with a girl when I wathed TPM. I actually dragged a non-fan female to watch Star Wars. It was very embarassing whenever Jar Jar was onscreen.

    "Star Wars?!?!"
    "Sure, Episode 1, it's gonna be great"
    "I don't know... this space stuff..."
    "Oh, it's cool"

    Then:

    JAR JAR.
    CHOSEN ONE
    JAR JAR.
    NO FATHER
    *********** MIDICHLORIANS **************
    9 YEAR OLD BOYS WIN POD-RACES
    JAR JAR
    9 YEAR OLD BOY SINGLE-HANDEDLY DESTROY MAJOR SPACE BATTLESHIP
    JAR JAR
    GUNGANS
    JAR JAR
    UNDEFEATABLE DROID ARMY RUN OUT OF BATTERY

    Oh, man!
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