Star Wars and Christianity

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Obi-wan-Damion, Oct 20, 2002.

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  1. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Even if it was "just a bizarre move" on his part, we can't simply ignore it.

    Yes we can. It's like when your best friend gets REALLY DRUNK and says some bizarre sexual thing to you. If both of you pretend it never happened, it's ok.

    Sure, neither was explicitly mentioned in AOTC, but so what?

    So it's easier to pretend that stuff never happened.

    Both were used to establish that Anakin is the Chosen One; there's no need to bring them up during AOTC.

    Not only that, there was in fact a great need NOT to.

    Besides, they DID re-emphasize the Chosen One prophecy, and Lucas has NEVER publically backtracked on either issue.

    After "Greedo shoots first" the whole continuity on Star Wars collapsed. Face it. :D
  2. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    I wasn't ignoring them; sorry if it seemed like it!

    No one got my Art-Deco Artoo-Deetoo reference. Or no one cared.

    This may seem incredible, but at last I totally, completely agree with you on a point!! *fireworks go off*

    Yeah! The way I randomly talk about stuff, this was to happen some day! :)

    My friends and I all like to say that Anakin's father died while Shmi was pregnant, and that the "no father" thing never existed. You may not be able to ignore the Chosen One prophecy, but you can try!

    Maybe she was lying, and Palpatine is Anakin's father. That's a better one.

    I must say, though, that I sometimes think that maybe it was Luke, and not Anakin, who actually was the Chosen One. I don't see how Anakin brought balance to the force. Unless it was by his redemption in ROTJ, somehow.

    Maybe the Jedi were just wrong about this stuff. Really, they did the "will of the force" and got destroyed.

    Train Anakin - WRONG. Became Darth Vaver, a Sith Lord
    Help Palpatine - WRONG. He was a Sith Lord
    Dooku is an idealist - WRONG. He was a Sith Lord
    Tell Luke no to go to Bespin - WRONG. It worked.
    Tell Luke not to try to bring Vader back, and kill him and the Emperor - WRONG. Anakin DID come back and destroyed the emperor, while Luke was not able to kill the Emperor. Actually I think this one was planned by Obi-Wan that lied to Luke again. :)

    What if Palpatine knew the true nature of the force, like Vader said?

    Maybe he grew overconfident, and began to "foresee" things. Then he was destroyed. Arrogant, was him. :)

    EDIT: Crazy theory stuff
  3. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    How about this?

    If you want to whine and moan about midichlorians, Jar Jar, the Podrace, Anakin, the Chosen One prophecy, or ANYTHING ELSE, go to the appropriate thread and complain.

    We should not discount ANY of it in terms of discussing Star Wars and religion - and we certainly shouldn't discount them just because you don't happen to like them.
  4. ewokalley Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2002
    In responce to "Hell was first mentioned in the bible"

    That is totally false. 1,000 years before christianity was even dreamed up as a practical joke by the aliens from planet zero, the chinese had many forms of hell.

    Even the Greeks and Romans had their own versions of hell. (Hades, Shades)

    But since the christians have their exclusive timeline, they can't recognise that time at all even though we have artifacts dating back before the alien's practical joke.
  5. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Ewokalley,

    I find it kinda offensive that you feel it necessary to negate my beliefs based on what you claim is evidence to the contrary. Planet Zero is a fairy tale, a myth, a gleam in God's eye. :)
  6. razorsaces Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2002
    star 1
    Star Wars has a history of revisionist history as Lucas refines his vision the details of the saga change.

    Planet Zero? What?!
  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    I agree that he does revise, but he hasn't revised the religious aspects, only added to them and clarified them. The latest clarifications have been almost entirely centered around the force, itself, as an unique religion, melded together from three (possibly more) religious beliefs.
  8. ewokalley Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2002
  9. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Ewokalley,

    Eh, Star Wars has christian details in it, even if they share their details with other belief systems. Woop-tee-doo. ;) It's okay, calm, relaxed, at peace.
  10. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    How about this?

    Impressive. Now release your anger.

    If you want to whine and moan

    I was being ironic. That's different.

    Darth Vader is ironic.

    Jar Jar whine and moan.

    about midichlorians,

    The midiclhorians? That make SW so "christian"? Me? :)

    Jar Jar,

    Please correct me if I am wrong everyone, but I think that on ANY topic on ANY forum of ANY subject it is on-topic to make fun of Jar Jar.

    the Podrace,

    The PODRACE is great!!!!

    Anakin,

    Anakin is great!!!!

    the Chosen One prophecy,

    Funny you should mention that. It s a prophecy, yes, but was it right? Did it worked as it should?

    or ANYTHING ELSE,

    Well, that's fairly big.

    go to the appropriate thread and complain.

    Ouch. That was harsh.

    We should not discount ANY of it in terms of discussing Star Wars and religion - and we certainly shouldn't discount them just because you don't happen to like them.

    Let's count them all. But this *is* the "Classic Trilogy" forum... So who's off-topic now? :)

    I don't wish to dismiss anything, in fact, I think it was fairly stabilished that SW takes influences from a lot of different cultures, religions, myths, etc.
  11. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    I agree that he does revise, but he hasn't revised the religious aspects, only added to them and clarified them. The latest clarifications have been almost entirely centered around the force, itself, as an unique religion, melded together from three (possibly more) religious beliefs.

    Yes, the notion of a "Jedi Religion" is something from ANH.

    Anyway, I think that the "Chosen One" is a bit of a revision... There was no such notion on 1997. If anything, Luke was the last hope.

    The concept of the force has also changed a bit... Of course it's more subjective than anything else.

    Star Wars 1977: "The hability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force"

    TPM 1999: "Hey, that kid has a high Midchlorian-count!"

    Star Wars 1977: "When I left you I was but a learner, now I am the master"

    TPM 1999: "His father are a collective of 1.000.000.000.000 Midchlorians"
  12. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Let's count them all. But this *is* the "Classic Trilogy" forum... So who's off-topic now?

    Ahem.

    Dude, I was with a girl when I wathed TPM. I actually dragged a non-fan female to watch Star Wars. It was very embarassing whenever Jar Jar was onscreen.

    "Star Wars?!?!"
    "Sure, Episode 1, it's gonna be great"
    "I don't know... this space stuff..."
    "Oh, it's cool"

    Then:

    JAR JAR.
    CHOSEN ONE
    JAR JAR.
    NO FATHER
    *********** MIDICHLORIANS **************
    9 YEAR OLD BOYS WIN POD-RACES
    JAR JAR
    9 YEAR OLD BOY SINGLE-HANDEDLY DESTROY MAJOR SPACE BATTLESHIP
    JAR JAR
    GUNGANS
    JAR JAR
    UNDEFEATABLE DROID ARMY RUN OUT OF BATTERY

    Oh, man!


    And you want to gripe about ME being off-topic?

    While I've got your attention, how does midichlorians in TPM change the meaning of what was said in ANH?
  13. razorsaces Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2002
    star 1
    I don't think the the PT has really effected our understanding of the Force other than the fact that the Force seems to have a will and there seems to be some sort of fate or destiny guiding people's eventual actions (also implied in the OT). Everything else is just details. :)
  14. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    And you want to gripe about ME being off-topic?

    I didn't say I wasn't off-topic too. In fact, it was you who started the "off-topic" subject, which is, by the way, off-topic.

    I'm off topic?

    THIS WHOLE THREAD IS OFF TOPIC!

    (this is a movie reference)


    While I've got your attention, how does midichlorians in TPM change the meaning of what was said in ANH?

    It removes a lot of the mistery of the force. On a subjective point of view, it changes a lot.

    Like "The force is STRONG with this one" being replaced with "The midchlorian-count must be HIGH with this dude".


    Let's take a peak at another midchlorian revised dialogue on OT:

    Vader: "The Emperor will show you the TRUE nature of the force"

    Luke: "The dark side? Hatred? Fear? Agression?"

    Vader: "No, Vitamin B complex, it improves your midchlorian count"

    Luke: "Nooooooooooooooooooooo! It's not true!"

    Vader: "Look at this blood tests... You know it to be true!"


    Why stop here?

    Vader: "Obi-Wan never told you about your grandfather..."

    Luke: "He told me enought. Actually, he told me nothing"

    Vader: (shows an holographic 3d image of midclorians) "This is your grandfather"

    Luke: "Eeeewwwwwwww. I mean, Nooooooooo."
  15. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    [face_laugh]

    Like I said before, the stupid midis take away a lot of the magic and mystery from the SW movies.

    Unless my eyes are going screwy, I believe I read a post made by a guy who thinks that Christianity was started by aliens from a "planet zero".

    I don't think I'll comment on that...I wouldn't trust myself to stay serious.

    Christianity was started by Jesus Christ, almost 2000 years ago. Hence the name, "Christ-ian".

    Aliens from another planet...where on earth did you get that idea?! I'm trying my best to remain respectful, honestly I am, but I've simply never heard anything like that in my life before! Of course, he could have been making a joke.

    Of course, it isn't very respectful when a person makes a joke about a religion that is important to and is practised by a billion or more people all over the world. But maybe he wasn't thinking of that.
  16. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Although Ewokalley is poorly informed and not wise to say Christianity is a joke, I think I know where he's coming from.

    Here's some more accurate information from Neil Freer's website:

    "Zecharia Sitchin has demonstrated that the transcultural gods*, the Annunaki/Nefilim, of the ancient civilizations from the tenth planet, Nibiru, in our solar system colonized Earth, created the human species by genetically crossing their genes with Homo Erectus. Corroboration comes from evidence for Planet X/Nibiru from the Naval Observatory, the mitochondrial DNA "search for Eve", "out of Africa" data placing our genesis in Central Africa 250,000 years ago. We have progressed from being their slave animals to limited partnership and are now phasing out of a 3000 year traumatic transition to racial independence, a rapid metamorphic process, under the imperative of our advanced Nefilim genetic component. We now have the keys to integrate our past in the concept of generic humanity, the critical factor for planetary unity."


    (* I think that in this context the author uses the term to indicate the ability to create life)
  17. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    I would just suggest we focus on what happens within the saga rather than our own opinions on what was good or bad: let's look at what Star Wars says rather than whether we like the particular message.


    On the issue of midi-chlorians:

    It removes a lot of the mistery of the force. On a subjective point of view, it changes a lot.

    Like "The force is STRONG with this one" being replaced with "The midchlorian-count must be HIGH with this dude".


    Actually, I don't think it does remove the mystery. Let's say, for example, we discover how God "talks" to his followers - that God Almighty somehow triggers the proper brain cells to make us think we're hearing His voice. Does that make divine communication less mysterious? Not really.

    I think you're misreading (or reading too much into) the idea of midi-chlorians.

    The presence of midichlorians indicates a strong connection to the Force; they don't necessarily cause that strong connection.

    It could well be like this: wet grass indicates that it just rained, but the wet grass didn't CAUSE it to rain. It's possible that a natural strength in the Force leads to a high concentration of midi-chlorians, and that concentration leads to a more intimate knowledge of the Force.

    If midi-chlorians DID cause strength in the Force, then the Jedi would INDEED be focused on increasing midi-chlorian count. Instead, even in the prequels, they focus on the Force itself: the midi-chlorians appear to be an effect of the Force, not a cause.

    The only sketchy part of this theory is how midi-chlorians could help in the conception of a human child. My guess is that they were merely used by the Force; they were obeying the will of the Force. (Notice Qui-Gon, who proposes the midi-chlorian conception theory speaks of the "will of the Force," not the "will of midi-chlorians.")
  18. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    >>>I would just suggest we focus on what happens within the saga rather than our own opinions on what was good or bad

    Well... that's hard since they are basically the same to me ;)

    Seriously though, the resemblances are srtriking: mitochondria, cloning...
    The Jedi knew just as little about the midichlorians as our earthly scientists know of mitochondria, Qui-Gon was only guessing. The Jedi deemed it possible that the midis could conceive life, but had no evidence for this.

    If it indeed were the midis who conceived life, then it get's technical. My geuss would be that the midis within the ovum, "guided by the force", would initiate the multiplication of the ovum.

    But no matter how many interesting things scientists find out about our true genesis, in real life or in star wars, it does not take away from the magic and mystery of God / the Force, as they are all that is, was and will be...

    The first creator so to speak.
  19. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I also wanna add that I think the Force gives a much better depictation of what "God" is than what most humans have...

    (Or did you really think "he" looked like old Ben Kenobi ;))

    It is not good, it is not bad, it just is.
  20. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    I also wanna add that I think the Force gives a much better depictation of what "God" is than what most humans have...

    Not correct. God is not a force field that binds living things together. See previous messages about this.

    On the Star Wars universe, the force didn't CREATE the universe. The force is not OMNIPOTENT or OMNISCIENT.


    (Or did you really think "he" looked like old Ben Kenobi )

    He is, according to Genesis.


    It is not good, it is not bad, it just is.

    Not true. If you are talking about God, then He is Good.

    If you are talking about the force, it's both good AND bad, at the same time. The force have 2 sides, one good, one dark.
  21. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Again, I disagree with the assessment that the Force is simultaneously good and bad: I think the Dark Side of the Force is a corruption of what it ought to be.
  22. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    I would just suggest we focus on what happens within the saga rather than our own opinions on what was good or bad: let's look at what Star Wars says rather than whether we like the particular message.

    Like when you dismiss everything you don?t about the Midichlorians on TPM? :)

    I think you're misreading (or reading too much into) the idea of midi-chlorians.

    Well, it's subjective, people read things differently.

    The presence of midichlorians indicates a strong connection to the Force; they don't necessarily cause that strong connection.

    That's not how it is explained on TPM.

    It's possible that a natural strength in the Force leads to a high concentration of midi-chlorians, and that concentration leads to a more intimate knowledge of the Force.

    What?

    Force makes people have more Midi's, and Midi's make people have more foce. Then force...

    And as for "it's possible", It?s also possible that the Emperor is actually a Yoda-clone-inside-droid-pod-on-cyborg-palpatine, but how can we know? :)

    If midi-chlorians DID cause strength in the Force, then the Jedi would INDEED be focused on increasing midi-chlorian count. Instead, even in the prequels, they focus on the Force itself: the midi-chlorians appear to be an effect of the Force, not a cause.

    Midchlorians have a will. They are inside the people they want. They created anakin. I?m not saying it?s cool or anything, it?s just what is in the movies wheatear we like it or not.

    Notice Qui-Gon, who proposes the midi-chlorian conception theory speaks of the "will of the Force," not the "will of midi-chlorians."

    More one reason to believe that it?s the very same thing. He doesn't discriminate them at any time. Or else he would think the force conceived Anakin.
  23. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    But isn't it the Force itself that enables this corruption in the first place?
  24. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    If it indeed were the midis who conceived life, then it get's technical. My geuss would be that the midis within the ovum, "guided by the force", would initiate the multiplication of the ovum.

    How could he be a BOY? The woman lacks the genetic material. You need an X and a Y cromossom.

    [insert big "genetics are different on SW" debate here]

    [inser big "then this technical stuff about midichlorian conception is useless" debate here]
  25. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    Like I said before, the stupid midis take away a lot of the magic and mystery from the SW movies.

    Oh yeah.

    Unless my eyes are going screwy, I believe I read a post made by a guy who thinks that Christianity was started by aliens from a "planet zero".

    I think he was making a joke.

    Of course, it isn't very respectful when a person makes a joke about a religion that is important to and is practised by a billion or more people all over the world. But maybe he wasn't thinking of that.

    Well, not everyone was happy with GL reference of a Virgin Birth on TPM.

    Or people comparing the force with God on this thread.

    Or the idea displayed on this thread that SW has a better conception of God than most of humanity, which means billions of people from all religions.

    But what to expect from a thread with such a topic? :)
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