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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Star Wars and Where Lucas went astray

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthTerminus, Jul 19, 2003.

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  1. DarthTerminus

    DarthTerminus Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    After watching Return of the Jedi for the umteen-millionth time I decided to compile a list of things I have seen, over the year, most recently in the New Trilogy, that are mistakes Lucas made.

    Some of these may be plot holes, some of them are just poor decisions, but it it by no means totally comprehensive. That is why I decided to put it on the Forums. I am sure many of you will have additions of your own.

    Here is the list, by movie, (in no particular order)

    STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE - SPECIAL EDITION
    - Greedo should never have shot first
    - The scene with Jabba the Hutt in the hangar should never have been done if the CGI technology was not up to par.
    - Most everything else is okay. However, the New Trilogy screws up a lot of the plot line.

    EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - SPECIAL EDITION
    - This movie was damn near perfect in my opinion. That explains why it is mosty everyone's favorite.

    RETURN OF THE JEDI - SPECIAL EDITION
    - I personally don't like Boba Fett flirting with the girls. Sure it shows he is human, but that is something that we liked about Boba....that he wasn't human. He seemed driven to do one thing...his mission.
    - How cool was the fight between Jango Fett and Obi Wan Kenobi? AWESOME. Why don't we see some of that action in JEDI? Boba is made out to be a klutz. It is as if Lucas didn't know what to do with him and just wanted to get rid of him early in the picture. I personally would have liked Boba Fett to pursue the escaping prisoners after the fight and have Luke smoke him. But it's too late for that.
    - When Luke jumps to the other skiff outside of Jabba's sail barge, he is deflecting a bunch of blaster fire. Was that choreographed or what? At that close range SOMEONE should have hit him at least once.
    - Way to family friendly light saber fighting on the skiffs. No lost limbs, and it seemed like the light saber just zipped through their bodies leaving no marks whatsoever.
    - Luke is about to drop into the Sarlacc Pit. He grabs the plank, flips in the air and lands on the deck of the skiff......and waits for his light saber to fall into his hand. Any bounty hunter, or guard for that matter, would have shot him dead. To show how skilled he is Luke should land on the deck just as the light saber get into his hand. Perfect timing would be so much better here.
    - PLOT HOLE ALERT - Obi Wan tells Luke that he sensed the strength of the force in Anakin (his father) and thought he could train him himself. EPISODE I: Yoda grants Obi Wan permission to train Anakin. Qui Gon is the one that found Anakin and detected his strength in the force. Episode I should have been started much later in Anakin's life with Obi Wan meeting him. Qui Gon should not have been involved with finding Anakin at all to keep true to the story line. (See Episode I).
    - This always bothered me, Obi Wan: "The one spoke of is your twin sister." Luke: "Leia. Leia's my sister." Obi Wan: "Your insight serves you well." THAT and the fact that she is the only other chick in all three movies. (Thank you to MAD Magazine 1983 for pointing this out.)
    - ONE WORD: EWOKS. Marketing should never take the place of story. Originally the Ewoks were supposed to be Wookies. That would have been way more interesting. Wooden spears and rocks would not beat these elite trained Storm (Clone) Troopers.
    Lucas turned JEDI into too much of a kiddie movie. SEE JAR JAR BINKS.
    - SMALL QUESTION: Why doesn't anyone try and stop Luke from taking Darth Vader from the Death Star? There are guys running all over the place. Sure, I am sure they are panicking, but wouldn't one loyal stormtrooper try to save the big boss? I would have liked Vader to do a mind trick on the Stormtrooper when he tried to stop him. One last little push of the force before he dies. JUST AND IDEA.
    - The RANCOR still looks fake in the matting process.
    - Why didn't Lucas include the originally shot scene, the one in the Novel, when Luke is in the Rancor pit. He force leaps to the grating above and Jawas smash on his fingers with the butts of thei
     
  2. Invisble_Bob

    Invisble_Bob Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 22, 2003
    PLOT HOLE ALERT - Obi Wan tells Luke that he sensed the strength of the force in Anakin (his father) and thought he could train him himself. EPISODE I: Yoda grants Obi Wan permission to train Anakin. Qui Gon is the one that found Anakin and detected his strength in the force. Episode I should have been started much later in Anakin's life with Obi Wan meeting him. Qui Gon should not have been involved with finding Anakin at all to keep true to the story line. (See Episode I).

    Slick there dude, but if you remeber obi trained hime after qui gon was toasted.
     
  3. jedi_master_ousley

    jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2002
    STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE - SPECIAL EDITION
    - Greedo should never have shot first

    Agreed.

    - The scene with Jabba the Hutt in the hangar should never have been done if the CGI technology was not up to par.

    Agreed, and it was somewhat repetitive. John Knoll says he wants to redo it for the AE's.

    - Most everything else is okay. However, the New Trilogy screws up a lot of the plot line.

    I'm typing responses as I read, so hopefully you'll elaborate.

    EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - SPECIAL EDITION
    - This movie was damn near perfect in my opinion. That explains why it is mosty everyone's favorite.


    Retrurn of the Jedi is my favorite, but to each his own. I thought ESB was awesome too.

    RETURN OF THE JEDI - SPECIAL EDITION
    - I personally don't like Boba Fett flirting with the girls. Sure it shows he is human, but that is something that we liked about Boba....that he wasn't human. He seemed driven to do one thing...his mission.


    I don't really care either way, and I didn't even notice it until I saw someone complaining about it last year.

    - How cool was the fight between Jango Fett and Obi Wan Kenobi? AWESOME. Why don't we see some of that action in JEDI? Boba is made out to be a klutz. It is as if Lucas didn't know what to do with him and just wanted to get rid of him early in the picture. I personally would have liked Boba Fett to pursue the escaping prisoners after the fight and have Luke smoke him. But it's too late for that.

    Eh, I don't know. I never really liked Boba anyway. Yeah, I'm weird.

    - When Luke jumps to the other skiff outside of Jabba's sail barge, he is deflecting a bunch of blaster fire. Was that choreographed or what? At that close range SOMEONE should have hit him at least once.

    He was pretty skilled by that point. In the ESB novel and comic, Yoda trains Luke with a remote droid like in ANH, and plus there's the whole Black Sun incident between movies.

    - Way to family friendly light saber fighting on the skiffs. No lost limbs, and it seemed like the light saber just zipped through their bodies leaving no marks whatsoever.

    He wasn't fighting to injure necessarily, just to keep everyone safe. He would have done more if it was necessary.

    - Luke is about to drop into the Sarlacc Pit. He grabs the plank, flips in the air and lands on the deck of the skiff......and waits for his light saber to fall into his hand. Any bounty hunter, or guard for that matter, would have shot him dead. To show how skilled he is Luke should land on the deck just as the light saber get into his hand. Perfect timing would be so much better here.

    I think a nice cover up for that is to say that they were in shock. ;)

    - PLOT HOLE ALERT - Obi Wan tells Luke that he sensed the strength of the force in Anakin (his father) and thought he could train him himself. EPISODE I: Yoda grants Obi Wan permission to train Anakin. Qui Gon is the one that found Anakin and detected his strength in the force. Episode I should have been started much later in Anakin's life with Obi Wan meeting him. Qui Gon should not have been involved with finding Anakin at all to keep true to the story line. (See Episode I).

    Obi-Wan said the Force was strong in him, not that he found him. Obi-Wan says he took it upon himself to train Luke, he probably should have let one of the Council Members or an older/more experienced Jedi do it. He took the training upon himself because of a request from Qui-Gon. He didn't have to.

    - This always bothered me, Obi Wan: "The one spoke of is your twin sister." Luke: "Leia. Leia's my sister." Obi Wan: "Your insight serves you well." THAT and the fact that she is the only other chick in all three movies. (Thank you to MAD Magazine 1983 for pointing this out.)

    Originally, when there was going to be 7, 8, and 9, they were going to be about Luke's search for his twin sister.

    - ONE WORD: EWOKS. Marketing should never take the place of story. Originally the Ewoks were supposed to be Wookies. Tha
     
  4. That_Wascally_Droid

    That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2001
    STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE - SPECIAL EDITION
    - Greedo should never have shot first


    Dunno why it was changed as it wasn't needed. However, the only thing that bugs me is the FX of the shot.
    No matter how you look at it though, Han was always shooting in self defense. Greedo greeted him with a gun to the chest. If Han was originally as cold blooded as everyone says the scene would have gone:

    An unarmed Greedo stops Han from leaving.
    'Oona goota So-' BLAM
    'Sorry about the mess. But my trigger finger was itching.


    - The scene with Jabba the Hutt in the hangar should never have been done if the CGI technology was not up to par.

    Well if you're wating for things to be perfected you gotta long wait ahead ;)

    - Most everything else is okay. However, the New Trilogy screws up a lot of the plot line.

    It hasn't screwed up anything yet.


    EMPIRE STRIKES BACK - SPECIAL EDITION
    - This movie was damn near perfect in my opinion. That explains why it is mosty everyone's favorite.


    Way to judge it with a critical eye... Also, popular opinion does not = truth. Else the world really was flat until people learned otherwise.

    RETURN OF THE JEDI - SPECIAL EDITION
    - I personally don't like Boba Fett flirting with the girls. Sure it shows he is human, but that is something that we liked about Boba....that he wasn't human. He seemed driven to do one thing...his mission.


    Seemed seemed seemed. That's the biggest flaw with Boba. Nothing was ever told about him so everybody made up their own stories. For all we know he has tea and crumpets in Slave I in his off time and listens to showtunes.

    - How cool was the fight between Jango Fett and Obi Wan Kenobi? AWESOME. Why don't we see some of that action in JEDI?

    Because back then Fett was just a nobody.

    Boba is made out to be a klutz. It is as if Lucas didn't know what to do with him and just wanted to get rid of him early in the picture.

    Because, you know, he was such an integral character to the saga at that point ;) He was little more than a delivery boy at that point. He didn't even capture Han. Vader did.

    I personally would have liked Boba Fett to pursue the escaping prisoners after the fight and have Luke smoke him. But it's too late for that.

    Also, it would make for a huge anti-climax for the ail barge fight. Yay! We won! Oops, no we didn't. Tack on insta-fight and waste ten minutes. OK, NOW we're done.

    - When Luke jumps to the other skiff outside of Jabba's sail barge, he is deflecting a bunch of blaster fire. Was that choreographed or what? At that close range SOMEONE should have hit him at least once.

    Jedi can apparently block laser blasts.

    - Way to family friendly light saber fighting on the skiffs. No lost limbs, and it seemed like the light saber just zipped through their bodies leaving no marks whatsoever.

    Limitatons of the FX. Do you realize how hard/costly it would have been to have each severed body part drop off on cue?

    - Luke is about to drop into the Sarlacc Pit. He grabs the plank, flips in the air and lands on the deck of the skiff......and waits for his light saber to fall into his hand. Any bounty hunter, or guard for that matter, would have shot him dead. To show how skilled he is Luke should land on the deck just as the light saber get into his hand. Perfect timing would be so much better here.

    Shock? Everyone thought he was dead meat. 'Sides. Boba was on his toes in a second.

    - PLOT HOLE ALERT - Obi Wan tells Luke that he sensed the strength of the force in Anakin (his father) and thought he could train him himself. EPISODE I: Yoda grants Obi Wan permission to train Anakin. Qui Gon is the one that found Anakin and detected his strength in the force.

    Obi-Wan says he was suprise at how strongly the Force was with him. And he was. On the ship he was shocked that the boy had more potential that Master Yoda. And he did decide to train him. With or without the council's permission if it came to that. Death Bed Promise or n
     
  5. OldieVonMoldie

    OldieVonMoldie Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Blah Blah Blah Blah.........................

    Don't be offended DarthTerminus, but the complaints you make are the ones people have been making for years.

    And most of the Jar Jar/ Ewok bashers are teens who saw the OT for the first time after TPM came out & suddenly became SW experts.


    Jar Jar/ Ewoks/ Lack of limbs flying about in ROTJ - Lucas made these movies for CHILDREN. The sooner you come to grips with this the less expectations you will have.

    Continuity problems - This happens when you film the 4th movie of a 6 part saga first, with no real script in place for the part before it, & come back to film the first 3 parts 15 years later.

    "It would of been better if Obi Wan found Anakin when he was 17......." Blah Blah Blah Blah.......... another complaint making the rounds for years.


    Look, DarthTerminus, like I said don't be offended. Part of the problem is that if you can remember seeing the OT in theaters when it first came out (not the SE), you were BOUND to be dissappointed. We ALL were. First off, we no longer were viewing SW from a childs eyes. Second, there was no way TPM could of lived up to all the hype WE built up thinking how it should have been done.

    But guess what, how we think it should have been done makes no difference. George is making these movies, so if this is the way he wants the Saga to go, all we can do is either watch it or not.
     
  6. MikeSolo

    MikeSolo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2002
    Where do you find the time to come up with this bleep :p must have a lot of free time on your hands or hand :p
     
  7. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Great, another pointless rant from somebody who thinks they know Star Wars better than George Lucas. I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain.

    Oh, and Wascally Droid, thanks for my new signature! [face_laugh]
     
  8. TheWord

    TheWord Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2003
    OK, the automatic implication is that you could do better, which I highly doubt.

    - Making Anakin 17 would have started the New Trilogy further in so we could see the turn of Anakin in the middle of EPISODE II. Obi Wan could fight Anakin at the begining of EPISODEIII and cause him to fall into the lava. Then, after the Jedi Massacre begins and the Empire is on the rise, Mechanical Darth Vader would just show up after everyone though that Anakin was killed by the lava. We would be then be able to see the jedi massacre and the Empire taking full control in EPISODE III. Would have been MUCH better.

    Give me a freakin' break. Your ideas are MUCH worse. Lucas made Anakin 9 because he was old enough to be capable and show Force talents, but young enough to still need and want his mother. The fact that he was taken from his mother at 10, and not before he knew her like all the rest of the Jedi, is a major reason for his turn to the Dark Side. As someone else already said, if he were any older, the problems with leaving his mother would have been drastically diminished. Jake Lloyd could've been a better actor, but that's all the ground I'll give you on that issue. Luke beginning his full training at age 22 made him a much higher risk, though he didn't have the looming issue of his parents (both assumedly dead) or his uncle and aunt (definately dead) hanging over his head.

    - THREE WORDS: JAR JAR BINKS. (POINTLESS) - See EWOKS.

    OK, you don't like anything that's not badass in your Star Wars movies. No cream in your coffee either, I suppose.

    - Also, I would have loved to see Luke just force levitate that rock to the door control to kill the Rancor al la Darth Maul.

    How nit-picky is that? Come on. Besides, Luke isn't exactly a genius with the force like a trained Sith apprentice. Luke in RotJ is still comparitively weak. It's WHO he is, not HOW POWERFUL he is that ultimately saves Anakin.

    I would, however, like to state that I agree with you on the rest of the rancor scene. The matting is absolutely ATROCIOUS and needs to be fixed in the UE or AE or whatever.

    In short, I disagree with most of what you said. Just because he didn't do what you wanted doesn't mean he isn't clever or doesn't know how to do films.
     
  9. BlackPool

    BlackPool Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2000
    3 words: Fett--Sarlacc, Ewoks.

    He went astray long before the Special Editions.

    BP
     
  10. JansonYellowAces

    JansonYellowAces Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Way to family friendly light saber fighting on the skiffs. No lost limbs, and it seemed like the light saber just zipped through their bodies leaving no marks whatsoever.

    He wasn't fighting to injure necessarily, just to keep everyone safe. He would have done more if it was necessary.


    He pointed the gun at the deck killing everyone onboard.
     
  11. ForceHeretic

    ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2002
    Even though there are some things in the movies I'd have liked doen differently

    I say it's GL's story, he can do whatever he wants. He didn't go "astray" because it's his story, not yours
     
  12. Darth_MacDaddy

    Darth_MacDaddy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2003
  13. Myaha

    Myaha Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2002
  14. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    i agree also! GL has every right to mess the films up as much as he wants to!
     
  15. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2001
    Mess them up? I think you mean improve them.
     
  16. dv001m

    dv001m Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2003
    When all of you come up with an amazing idea for a multi-billion dollar movie series, you can do what you want with it, but until then, realize that this is GL's story and that no one knows it better than GL. He had a purpose in doing everything that was done...
     
  17. Darth-Dispicable

    Darth-Dispicable Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2003
    I have only 3 probs w/ the films.

    Casting choice for TPM Anakin, the use of Jar Jar in TPM (could have been less), and Ewoks.

    I can live with it, they are still 5(soon to be 6) of the best movies I have ever seen.
     
  18. mac-nut

    mac-nut Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2001
    It's GL's story; he can tinker with them forever, and call them super duper new editions; they are his babies. :D
     
  19. BibbleStrikesBack

    BibbleStrikesBack Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    It's Lucas' story, and I really can't say that I have a major beef with any of them. I will say that, long before the PT came to be, I always imagined OB1 and Anakin meeting with Ben being a few years older than Anakin. I thought that we'd see more of Anakin's piloting skills, which perhaps we may see in Episode III. It all goes back to Star Wars being the story of Anakin Skywalker, from humble beginnings to death.
     
  20. T16Skyhopper

    T16Skyhopper Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2002
    I agree with all the others who say LET LUCAS RUIN IT! It's his creation, plus he's the one who's putting out the dough to make them, and as long as he has that, he can make any movie he wants to make.
     
  21. BibbleStrikesBack

    BibbleStrikesBack Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Exactly. It's his, and he can write it however he wants.
     
  22. Padawan92

    Padawan92 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2001
    I agree. Its not that Lucas went astray its more what you don't like about it.
     
  23. Ktulu_Terumo

    Ktulu_Terumo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Way to family friendly light saber fighting on the skiffs. No lost limbs, and it seemed like the light saber just zipped through their bodies leaving no marks whatsoever.

    I agree.

    He wasn't fighting to injure necessarily, just to keep everyone safe. He would have done more if it was necessary.

    Yeah Rigth! - " He wasn't fighting to injure necessarily, just to keep everyone safe " - and then he signals Leia to point the gun at the deck, shoots, and blows everyone onboard!!!!
     
  24. Krash

    Krash RSA Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2000
    I am sure many of you will have additions of your own.
    If there is one thing not lacking on the internet...it's people with complaints about movies.

    Boba Fett flirting with the girls...that is something that we liked about Boba....that he wasn't human
    This sounds like personal frustration, so the man is trying to score with the ladies...why don't you drop him in a Sarlacc ;)

    Jabba the Hutt in the hangar should never have been done if the CGI technology was not up to par
    You do realize, at the time...CGI hadn't progressed to the level it is today? Nobody chastised ILM for stop-motion AT-ATs or puppet Yoda. If they want to re-do the CGI (by today's standard) for the AE...that doesn't mean the addition of that scene was a mistake.
     
  25. DarthTerrious

    DarthTerrious Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    Well you do realise Lucas could have done a whole lot worse.

    Gone completely commercial and made films with lots of Jedis fighting Siths, and basically pointless action with no real story.

    Its the measure of the man that he took the artistic path, kept with his story and is completing it.

    Its just another case of you wanting something else rather that what Lucas gave you. Why does the term "Spoilt Brat" come to mind? Or is it "Sour Grapes"? Or maybe it's both?
     
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