STAR WARS: DARTH PLAGUEIS Novel

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Zorkel567, Jul 27, 2010.

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  1. DarthRotten Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 4
    Plagueis wasn't San Hill but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't Chairman of the IGBC back in his day. It seems like Sith Lords try to manuever their alter egos into positions of power that they can use to their advantage. For a Muun, Chairman of the Banking Clan would be where's it at.

    Heck, maybe he was a relative... Dan Hill LOL
  2. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

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    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2001
    star 5
    I believe he was Stan Hill, actually...

    TC
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't know if we should use Palpatine as a model for all Sith in this regard.
  4. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I'm with Fenn on this one: if anything, Palpatine was the innovator in having a political alter-ego, but it might be also fair to say that the Sith were basing their plans on eventually having one of their own eventually do exactly what Sidious did: insert himself into the political process once the Republic was sufficiently destabilized for him to be able to do the most damage possible. The question is, when were they going to send someone in to do it?

    Remember that the Sith plan (as outlined by Luceno himself in Labyrinth of Evil, no less) was to slowly and gradually introduce chaos and corruption, allow evil to spread through the system that was the Republic, almost like introducing a cancer into someone and watching and waiting while it eventually began to damage the vital systems and metastasize. We can only assume that then, when the time was right, one of their own would execute the final and fatal acts to put the system out of its misery. Probably only someone in high office could do those acts, so it had to be done by a Sith inserted into the political sphere. In fact, that may play into the whole idea, said several times in the EU (again, usually by Luceno), that Darth Sidious was something the Sith were waiting for - the birth of a Sith powerful to hide from the Jedi in plain sight, because only someone the Jedi couldn't sense as a Sith would be able to enter politics and perform those last fatal acts.

    Remember that it's important from a story perspective to preserve Palpatine's importance as a character and not have that watered down by making him one among a host of people who are all exactly like him in every way. This ability of his to not be seen in the Force makes Sidious something special and maintains that uniqueness; yes, he's the latest in a whole line of Sith Lords, and yes, his goals are those of his predecessors, and yes, he's probably not alone in killing his master to become a master himself. But this power to remain unseen in the Force makes him special and unique, as it could only be him who could do what he did, not Plagueis or whoever came before him. Sidious didn't have to remain in hiding in some secret lair all the time (even though Sidious had a lair or two), but Plagueis and his predecessors probably did. One could say that the Sith were waiting for Sidious in the same way the Jedi were waiting for their own Chosen One, one's Antichrist stand-in to the other's Christ stand-in.
  5. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2010
    star 3
    I'd have to agree. I think that Palpatine was one of the smartest, if not the most powerful, Sith in Star Wars lore. The only other one that might come close would be Darth Revan, but his abilities lay in military strategy and battle tactics, whereas Palpatine's lay in political strategy and intrigue. Many other Sith attempted to take the Republic down by brute force. Palpatine made it turn on itself. The Force Unleashed books reveal that many people in Imperial Space were satisfied with the Empire (perhaps unhappy with a few administrators, but loyal to the Emperor). It was a brilliant move, and he had the patience to see it through. The fact that he could get so close to the Jedi Council and remain undetected is also remarkable.

    That said, it would be interesting to find out the back story of the legend Palpatine told in part to Anakin.
  6. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    There's a lot to gain from this book. I think Luceno, of all people, knows what to do with this one. I was crushed when I heard it was cancelled, and pleased as peach when I heard it was bring resurrected.

    We all know what the big elephant in the room is: whether or not it's supposed to be about Darth Plagueis, everybody and their brother knows that what really stands to be revealed here is the real scoop on Palpatine - what made him the character he is. As Plagueis' apprentice - so far as we know, the only one - Sidious is a major defining element for Plagueis as a character, and it'd be a rather ill-conceived dancing act to write a book about a character without showing some of the most crucial character-development moments about that character, especially in, say, how he died maybe? Or how Plagueis grew or did not grow as a character by discovering and then training his apprentice? He got the privilege (if one might call it that) of discovering the one born to bring the Sith out of hiding and exact their revenge on all their enemies! It'd have to be a story on par with Qui-Gon's finding Anakin and discovering that this little kid could be the one to bring balance to the Force, which the Jedi have been waiting for since, like, forever! What effect does such a story dynamic have on Plagueis? How do you tell his story and not discuss that in some detail? It has to be done, no two ways about it, or else it's worthless as a project.

    So do we gain or lose by this book? First and foremost, I wouldn't worry too much about whether this or that bit of knowledge revealed might ruin Palpatine as a character; the process of revealing what the completely mysterious, ghoulish Emperor that we saw in Return of the Jedi really was like as a person (and he is still meant to be a person, a character, not just a cipher) began with the prequels, and if any actual definition of him as a character risks "ruining" him by setting limitations on what we as an audience might imagine about him, then the blame lies there, not with whatever Luceno might or might not do. If indeed any such definition is bad, then it's too late, and if you want to blame someone, you've got the wrong guy who's last name begins with L; for my part, I want to see what Luceno's take on it is. He's been the one defining what Palpatine's behind-the-scenes machinations have been from the start, with Cloak of Deception, Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Lord, and in all such cases, these have helped make Palpatine more interesting, not less. At least to me. Those books did what the films couldn't without giving away the surprises too early; clarify the Machiavellian plots and make the motivations of the villains as clear as could be done within the elaborate political framework the prequels established. And now, for better or worse, the surprises of the prequels out in the open, it's time to tell this man's story. And it has the right man for the job.

    But then there's one other element that makes this a must-see: I remember hearing (correct me if I'm wrong) that a plot run in parallel to the Plagueis story is one involving Qui-Gon Jinn and his discovery of the shamans of the Whills, who tell him the secret of how to come back after you die to offer exposition and support to the living characters. That story, sorry to say, was barely told in the script of ROTS and completely gutted in the final film. If Lucas doesn't want to tell that story in the cartoon, like he did with the Chosen One prophecy, you've probably got only two people qualified to write it properly: Luceno and Matt Stover. And Stover is probably otherwise engaged. THAT story, I'd read also. And Luceno's the man to write it.

    My $0.02. ;)
  7. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    I agree completely (especially about Stover being the only other person I'd trust doing anything related to Palpy- get that man on a DE/DEII/EE novelization, STAT! =P~ ). Palpatine/Sidious is the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith of all time, basically evil/the dark side made flesh. To me, Plagueis's supposed ability to manipulate the midi-chlorians was never his most intriguing facet- it's his relationship to Palpatine.

    Who was it who would train the man who is, as far as the films are concerned, at least, Star Wars's version of The Devil? What kind of person could shape a mere mortal into evil incarnate? What kind of man could devise teachings that could make someone the avatar of the dark side?

    The teacher of the ultimate Sith- the Master to THE Master, as it were... who could fill those shoes? And, how could he have trained Palpatine so well, and known he was this vessel of the dark side, and still have made the mistake of letting his guard down?

    Because the Dark Lord quote that has Palpatine not needing sleep makes me convinced that Plagueis knowing how Palpatine's mind worked- viewing every moment as a valid one to make a move or countermove against his opponent as he saw fit- and STILL feeling he could let his guard down and take a nap, is an inexplicable lapse of judgement (and thus justification for Palpatine's ascension to Sith Master. If he can make a mistake like that, was Plagueis still truly WORTHY of being the Master, even if he hadn't taught Palpatine the secret to immortality?).

    How could he be that brilliant, and still so naive? You can tell that's the kind of thought Palpatine was reflecting on with his "It's ironic- he could save others from death, but not himself" line.

    This book should be utterly fascinating. :D
  8. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Maybe Plagueis believed so strongly in the Rule of Two he thought it was his time to die and Palpatine's time to rule and take over the galaxy. Maybe he saw it coming and didn't want to get in the way. Maybe he's basically the first Sith who made a self-sacrifice for the Sith Order as a whole.

    I agree with Pfluegermeister on Luceno and the win/loss of a Plagueis book, and although I'm not interested in the Qui-Gon story I'm sure many are.
  9. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Funny thing is, I don't consider Palpatine to be Satan; the Antichrist, certainly, as he's the dark side's agent in the temporal universe in the same way that the Antichrist is meant to be Satan's. If anything, I'd guess the character of the Son from the Clone Wars cartoon's Mortis trilogy is the closest we're gonna get to Satan in this saga's universe, though even that has limits as a comparison in this particular philosophical construct as Lucas has envisioned it.

    I have the sleep quote in front of me, funnily enough. I'm not so sure it should be taken literally, as some seem to be doing. The book refers to Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep and then says, "Unlike Plagueis, Sidious knew better than to sleep." I interpreted this as to mean he would not allow himself be caught in a position of vulnerability by any of his apprentices. The closest comparison I could make is a line spoken by Ed Asner in the miniseries Roots: Asner played the captain of a slave ship that has picked up a load of fresh slaves, and the slaves still think they have a shot of getting off the boat, and they look at Ed with murder in their eyes and the determination to escape, and his aide asks him what those looks are about, and Ed replies, "They're telling us to sleep lightly." That's just a way of saying don't relax your guard, even among your slaves (As it turns out, that's exactly how Sidious did die; by not paying attention to what his slave was doing when he was standing right behind him). That, and the fact that the book Star Wars: Complete Locations says more than once that Palpatine has sleeping quarters both in his office on Coruscant and on the second Death Star - and even shows us the beds. I would guess he sleeps. Trust me, I was the first to add the bit about not sleeping to Palpy's article on the Wookieepedia, and I phrased it according to that reading of it. But I think when someone or more than one someone edited it for the sake of conserving letters (they always complain about the size of that thing), the phrasing of it may have been lost and the meaning changed by accident.

    And the scene in the opera house. That was McDiarmid's masterpiece of subtleness, wh
  10. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    All valid points indeed. I guess I just very much tend towards a literal reading of things- that, and the only Inside The Worlds book I've ever gotten my hands on was the one for Episode One (I swear, I've got to manage to afford the ones for the Original Trilogy someday! *shakes fist angrily at book budget*). Never gotten a hold of Complete Locations, either. *sigh*

    Still, that makes me wonder something interesting- Vader really DID become the rightful Sith Master then, in the same manner Palpatine did, as Palpatine made the same mistake Plagueis did... didn't he? From a certain point of view, of course. If he'd been Vader any longer, at any rate- Anakin was the one who gave Palpatine the shaft. Which means that the instant Vader was no more was the moment he got what he had been seeking the means of achieving- freedom from being Palpatine's slave. Which incidentally- and poetically- turned out to be intrinsically tied to bringing balance to the Force, bringing it all back home. He couldn't escape that, even as Vader. [face_mischief]

    See, the kind of book that can spark this kind of philosophical discussion is something that is going to be very, very memorable. Which is why it's such a great thing that it's no longer cancelled. Bring on Muuns, Sith playing God, and the genesis of evil incarnate.

    This book is SO going to rock. :cool:
  11. DarthRotten Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 4
    Sidious wasn't the only Sith to have a wealthy and powerful alter ego. Darths Bane, Zannah and Vectivus also had separate identities they used to move amongst soceity. Granted it seems hard to imagine Darth Maul running an import/export business or serving in public office but maybe Sidious always knew he wasn't his final apprentice...
  12. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    There's one theory I've seen pop up from time to time, that I've really latched onto, in the whole "influencing the midichlorians to create life" debate. The widely considered belief is that either Plagieus created Anakin. Which has it's own kind of poetic justice to it. The Sith creating their own destruction by making the one to fulfill the prophecy.

    However, I like better the idea that Plagieus created Palpatine, and that the Force itself created Anakin. I mean, think about it. Until Anakin, there is nobody to ever have the Force potential Palpatine possessed. He appears to be the first and only practitioner to actually bend the dark side of the Force to his/her own will. Then Anakin shows up and actually has the potential to surpass even Palpatine? How could these two things happen? Simple.

    Plagieus created Palpatine through manipulating the dark side in a way to influence the midichlorians. How do you make someone that is stronger in the dark side than any that came before, or any that would follow after? Easy, have that person be made of the dark side. So to speak. However, this had to have been an imperfect method. Otherwise Anakin never would've been able to surpasse him. Especially by the margin he was capable of.

    Which then brings us to Anakin. Palpatine was the strongest we've ever seen. Actually capable of bending the dark side to his own will. Instead of being consumed by it (until Luke and Leia, but that's a different matter altogether). So how does one find a way of doubling up that potential power? Again, easy. "The Force did it." Who would know how to perfectly use the Force to influence midicholorians in order to create a being of the Force? Well...the Force, of course. :p

    Plagieus changed the face of the galaxy, nay, the Universe, so drastically when he created Palpatine that the Force found itself with no other alternative than to step in and perfectly do what it was that Plagieus was attemtping. Now the question is whether or not the Force intended for Anakin to be born/raised in the middle of nowhere. But that's another matter for another time.

    I'm not quite sure this really fits with the current topic at hand, but I felt like adding my own 2 cents without having to creating a whole new topic about something that has likely been discussed to death as it is.
  13. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I've seen that idea of Palpatine being also created by the Force somehow float around from time to time myself, but I confess to never being really caught by it. It almost says more about Palpatine that he was so powerful naturally that the Force had to resort to un-natural means to create something that could take him out. The irony is, though, that in Jedi it really doesn't come down to a contest of Force powers; Vader just comes up from behind the guy, picks him up and then, SWISH, nothing but net! If anything, it's miraculous that he was able to do that with just one functioning hand, but nothing about the solution of this Chosen One business points to either of them NEEDING to have been made by the Force. The Clone Wars cartoon eps dealing with that issue did kind of make me accept that, yes, Anakin probably needed to be created by the Force, if only because it held me down and pummelled me with glorious, beautiful symbolism, but if anyone considers the idea of Anakin being so important that he needed to be created ex nihilo for the story to work to be going a little too far, then the idea that Sidious also was created ex nihilo seems to me to be taking it WAY too far. I've said that he needs to be kept unique as a character, and that only makes him more like another character who may or may not have needed that distinction himself.
  14. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Which is partly why I want this issue to remain completely, for lack of a better word right now, vague. That way, it remains a complete mystery. Which gives it a mysticism. That way any discussion on it a complete hypothetical, so to speak, and one where absolutely nobody is wrong. Because nobody is actually right.
  15. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Well, that's kind of what I'm talking about when I said before that any actual definition of his character risk "ruining" that character for the audience. It's in many ways what the prequels suffered from in the first place: whatever the actual events of these films, so many people have spent so long imagining what those events were in their heads, and to the point of loving and treasuring those imagined scenarios, that just to have the films differ from the imagined ones makes them a disappointment by default. But if we were going to have those films, the events in them couldn't be left vague. We could argue until Rapture about whether the execution of the ideas behind the events in the prequels was the best, or whether different takes on those ideas might have worked better or not, but they did have to be actually told, and someone was going to have to be proven wrong.

    Pretty much the same thing either has happened or will happen regarding Palpatine. From the moment I discovered which planet he was senator for, for instance, or what his method of giving speeches was, or how he arranged for his election, or who he replaced (or, for that matter, when his title was suddenly switched from President to Supreme Chancellor), my broad imagined ideas became hemmed in by established facts. What speech did he give when he declared himself Emperor? I wondered that all my life. I wasn't disappointed by the end result (particularly when it was printed in full in Star Wars Insider), but it wasn't what I imagined either. By definition, I was wrong and the films were right. My own ideas were being overwritten by what the films were telling me. I was wrong. And I'm cool with it. I'll probably be even MORE wrong once I've read this book. Who knows what it'll tell us?

    Hell, the book ITSELF stands to ultimately overwrite my ideas and make me wrong; people like us, who are interested in this character with real passion, have probably imagined what's going to be in this book from the second it was announced. It's why I was so excited, and why I was so crushed when it was cancelled, and then why I was so relieved when it was put back on schedule. And let's face it, it'll never give us everything we want; either something will be missing that we want in the book, or something will be in the book that we would prefer to remain missing. We will be wrong by definition. The question becomes, what's more important, being right or being entertained by the story? For myself, I choose being wrong and entertained.
  16. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Now there, I agree completely. [face_peace]
  17. DarthAdamentum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2008
    star 3
    not true on Vectivus. He was already a businessman before he got the Sith call and still remained balanced in his business dealings and never gave in to the darkside when tempted to. He was a peaceful Sith, not one to go against the galaxy or Jedi. I like him.
  18. sithreaper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2004
    star 3
    I think GL should have stuck to his initial plan of having Sidious completely pawn Windu & Yoda, by making both fights competitive (for dramatic impact), GL has left Sidious looking less powerful then he is.

    Sidious could indeed have been created by Plagueis, The evidence I would point to is a line that the son said in the mortis trilogy, ?together we can see kill this emperor you see in your visions?; I would suggest that Palpatine is a force wielder just like Anakin and the son and hence a threat to both of them, hence the reason they have to face him together.
    Anyway can?t wait for this book, its will be simply unmissable.
  19. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I wouldn't take that from the way the dialogue was written or spoken; I could take from it that Anakin is having visions about the man he will be serving as Vader, but that he may not recognize him because Palpatine was still handsome-looking at this point; he hadn't gotten the puffy monster-face that defined his appearance as Emperor. Or, one could just assume that since he had just been shown his future (and quite possibly all of it), he saw that Palpatine was going to become Emperor in that vision of the future (and indeed, we do see the monster-face Emperor in that future-vision). To take his being created by Plagueis from that, however, is a bit of a reach. One can certainly have that as a personal opinion; I just don't think there's evidence to either prove or disprove it. In any case, it's unlikely to me that we'll see any material from the Mortis trilogy in this book; we have no idea how much of it was written before it was put on hold, but I'm willing to bet it was largely in place already by the time the cartoon episodes could have become a factor.

    As for his fight scenes, it hardly makes him seem less powerful that he took on Yoda and walked away not only alive, but effectively the winner, even by a thin margin. And the problem with his fight against Windu is that the sheer complexity of his machinations (what he was willing to do to ensnare Anakin) make any objective take on whether he could either win or lose against Windu in a full-on smackdown a difficult thing to establish. The scene in the film can be interpreted in a number of different ways. And unless there will be some segments of the book that are in Palpatine's head and set post-ROTS, issues like that will probably never become a factor in the book. It'll be the things we haven't seen about this character that will make this book unmissable, as you correctly put it, not rehashings of the things we have seen already.
  20. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Didn't GL say that Palpatine and Yoda were pretty much the same?

    I hope they make it officially official that Plaguies created Anakin. I also think a nice twist would be to have Shmi have a connection to Palpatine. Maybe a sister or "friend." ;)
  21. Corusca_One Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2005
    star 3
    Going by what we see in the prequels it makes sense to show the newly minted Darth Vader as a bit of an incompetant and missing one of the Seppies. I'm going with Hill being alive; it's just more in character for Anakin, as established by George Lucas himself. [face_beatup]
  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    For the gazillionth time, San Hill is not Plagueis.
    Nor did he cheat death.
    :p
  23. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    San Hill was a clone.

    Just, you know, some food for thought.
  24. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    I demand "Should San Hill have died?"-thread. It worked with Maul.:p
    In my canon, he's alive, just for the lulz. Officially (as in what reads in source books, Holocron and stuff), he's not. But if Empire At War and other "proofs" from the movie are accounted, he's in some sort of limbo. And that would not hold him for long, because he is San "Too-Awesome-To-Be-Just-Darth-Plaqueis" Hill.
  25. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2010
    star 3
    One interesting thing will be finding out how Plagueis also survived detection from the Jedi, and if it was he who helped Palpatine move towards a position in the Senate. This will be interesting considering that Palpatine was first the senator from Naboo. He undoubtedly killed his master prior to taking the position, but I wonder how close Plagueis was able to get to the Republic/Jedi without being detected.
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