Discussion in 'Literature' started by max-attac, Oct 13, 2011.
I'm calling it now: There'll be a bloke named "Sky" and a gal named "Walker"...
I certainly agree some of it is ambiguous and undefined by established "Star Wars" texts, however once it is evaluated in the context of many religions the philosophy is clearly attainable. Recently I have had to research the Force for a school assignment in relation to many religions and philosophies and I believe I have found a cohesive understanding of 'the Force' and the philosophy of the Jedi (as well as purpose and destiny). Ultimately however what is abundantly clear is that no established tradition aligns completely with the Force - for instance the philosophies of both Taoism-Buddhism and Monotheistic are inherently ?unalignable? given specific differences (Good and Evil and their nature specifically). In essence however core concepts from each are apparent and, if you study it for a while, it is possible to understand what is ultimately meant.
In my opinion the Saga is designed to be inherently unclear so as to not align to a specific religion or philosophy - instead the true concept of the Force is conveyed indirectly, and it takes evaluation to truly understand its meaning. Furthermore there is a lot of symbolism in both the films and the 'Mortis trilogy' which are clearly meant to convey meaning.
Unfortunately it will be very easy for John to simply assign a religion to the Force or not amalgamate established religions (i.e. the Force is Taoist, or the Force is Taoist with Good and Evil, etc). I have faith however that he will be able to alter the represented traditions in order to create a cohesive philosophy (something which is possible - you can't take any philosophy or religion as absolute fact however). So far I have found the Force is Monotheistic through the lens of Taoist-Buddhist philosophy and purpose (as such the philosophy is complicated since you have to alter each religions philosophy).
I'll summarise my findings once I have completed the evaluation.
Wow, I'm impressed. Looking at Star Wars media as one continuous story, I don't think the first arc of Tales of the Jedi serves as a worthy opener to this long, long tale (I know there is stuff before it, but TOTJ as far as I'm aware is the first major work). Nice to "open it up" with a Ostrander comic.
I don't want this to sound disrespectful, but based on Mr. Ostrander's comic book resume (and the nature of Ms Durseema's artwork) I'd be surprised if this comic suddenly presented heavy philosophical lifting. There will be some basic philosophy stuff in the background, obviously. Other than that, it's probably going to be short-tempered, good-looking people with guns and bare bellies solving and creating problems. The basic questions of Legacy were very simple in nature, and the only new philosophical ideas were the very simple One Sith approach (that didn't work out in the end) and Cade's "screw this" attitude, which was essentially based on the vast philosophical tradition of grunge/emo teenagers.
Think about it - as much as this forum adores the idea of explaining blank spots in the history books of SW, what does sell? Short-tempered, good-looking people with guns and bare bellies solving and creating problems. Hats off if they manage to do one issue between arcs that has nothing but a few masters sitting around, contemplating stuff and voicing theories. Hats off to the general audience (not this forum) if it doesn't flood the internet with "this is more boring than the senate scenes" backlash but just eats it up like a generic Tarantino dialogue.
Just look as far as Purge 2, which had an interesting concept regarding the way the story could be built and used it for a plot that sums up as "generic Jedi plots for several pages to kill the obviously unkillable Palpatine and finally just hacks away at the unkillable Vader".
Again, no disrespect intended - I'm just saying that a commercial comic series isn't the place to look for the philosophical stuff everyone's looking for. If Lucas wasn't good enough and Stover couldn't make sense of it for you, just accept that there really isn't that much mileage in a Sci-Fantasy franchise and read a history of Earth's philosophers instead.
Oh my God...
It happened. For the first time in three years, it happened.
Something connected with Star Wars that I feel I must read!
Words cannot express how excited and absolutely tickled I am about this.
I look forward to this series and its exploration of the origins of the Jedi plus the Rakata as villains who are in their glory days by this time. Hopefully, plus some views of the other ancient races like Gree, Kwa and others who should be running around at that time. Also like to see either the Celestials being involved with the Tho Yor or perhaps a link between the Tho Yor to the Mortis monolith with the family seen in TCW. I really love the concept of super ancient elder races and stuff so this fascinates me. Any Rakatan involvement also with the ancient Jedi will also amuse me since it would mean the Infinite Empire had a hand to play with both the Sith and the Jedi.
The exploration of Tython interests me a lot as well and these Settled Worlds. Almost makes it seem that the system might be an engineered one like what the Celestials did with Corellia. But thats speculation at this stage but I am really looking forward to it. Plus, do these Settled Worlds have a government that has a military and starships? A proto-Republic if you will for the non-Force sensitives?
As I mentioned in the other thread, the Red Sith seems a bit out of place but Sinre made an interesting point in another post. So, whilst he seems out of place, I look forward to a good explanation on his presence. Then there is the Dathomiri... I presume though this is a Human who was transplanted to Dathomir who got transplanted to Tython as well. But, anyway, can't wait for this and seeing this brand new setting.
Speaking of the species and SWTOR [hl=black]I wonder if the recent revelation that Twi'lek's were made by the Rataka's Mother Machine will play into the story at all? Or interfere.[/hl]
The Sith do raise problems:
- At which point the Tython Sith died out?
- Were they still in the Order after it had re-located to Ossus? If so, did they establishes any (small) colonies of Sith in the early Republic?
- Were they utterly forgotten during the next 16 000 years or did the exiles of the Hundred Years Darkness have some knowledge of them and could know amongst which species they had ended when they reached Ziost and Korriban in 6900 BBY?
- If the Jedi Order knew about the Tython Sith still in 5000-4990 BBY, how could they ever have agreed to go along with the Sith genocide, when the species would have been among the founders of the Jedi and this would have shown them to be anything but totally Dark Side affiliated and beyond redemption as individuals and as a species?
- Did the later, post- Great Hyperspace War, Sith know about this early history? If they knew about the role of the Sith species in the founding of the Jedi, then there would be one more reason for them to hate the Jedi, as the events of 5000-4990 BBY look even worse in that light.
I've been away the whole weekend so I didn't learn about this until now but I have to say I'm greatly dissapointed and sad.
We already know the basics of this story, how the Jedi come to be etc. So there is NO excitement. We KNOW what's going to happen. We didn't know what was going to happen in Legacy because it was NEW.
Sure some will argue that we'll be following characters and we don't know what happens to them but the fact is we know the general outcome.
I have to disagree. I think we all knew exactly what was going to happen when Legacy started. That the empire in Exile would team up with the galactic Alliance to defeat the Sith, that Cade would embrace his heritage to defeat Krayt, and that the Sith had have a superweapon or two for a dramatic final showdown on Coursicant. The basics of the story were obvious, if the details took some twists and turns.
On the other, we do not "know the basics" of what happened. We know that the jedi were founded on Tython and that there was a war, but that is it. We don't know who did, why they did, what events would shape the jedi into what they are...
We have no idea who is behind the colonization of Tython, we don't know why the jedi leave, we don't know if the je'daii will defeat the Rataka or be driven out of the system by them. We don't even know who the main villian will be: the Rataka, the followers of Bogden, or some other group we don't know about.
If the Jedi Order knew about the Tython Sith still in 5000-4990 BBY, how could they ever have agreed to go along with the Sith genocide, when the species would have been among the founders of the Jedi and this would have shown them to be anything but totally Dark Side affiliated and beyond redemption as individuals and as a species?
I would like to point out that Tund had a significant Sith population and was known to the Jedi for a long time, without the jedi ever moving against them.
Did the later, post- Great Hyperspace War, Sith know about this early history? If they knew about the role of the Sith species in the founding of the Jedi, then there would be one more reason for them to hate the Jedi, as the events of 5000-4990 BBY look even worse in that light.
I doubt it. For one, they were taken to Tython by another species, they didn't arrive there themselves. Not to mention that there was no communication in or out of Tython at this time. And that the Dark jedi clearly took the Sith by surprise when they came.
So unless the Sith had a hive mind there was no way they could have known.
Considering that these pre-Republic Sith, apparently purebloods, were probably taken from Korriban and hauled across half the galaxy (when that really was an unbelievable distance) to Tython by one of those giant Tho Yor ships, it may even be possible that Korriban would never have learned about what happened to them. For all Korriban knows, they went the way of Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa. It depends on a bunch of small variables we know nothing about right now: For instance, how populated was Korriban in the 36400s? Were there enough less densely populated areas on the planet that these guys could have been taken unnoticed? Or were they grabbed in a public place? Were they important enough persons that they would have been missed (all we can guess is that those taken were Force-sensitive, but maybe enough pureblood Sith were Force-sensitive anyway to make this a non-issue)? Was the technological level on Korriban sufficient that news of their disappearance could be spread to other parts of the planet (for instance, did they have newspapers, radio, television, or their Star Wars equivalents to report this news)? Depending on the answers to these questions (and factoring in that we're talking at least 31,400 years between their respective periods) it's quite possible that later Sith, such as, say, Marka Ragnos, probably never knew Sek'nos Rath from Adam (I mean, how many people have we heard of who lived 31,000 years ago? Anyone? Any names? Beuller?).
Yes, I'm treating this like it's a MUFON thing when it may not be. But the fact that these Tho Yor apparently seem to have just went hither and yon across the pre-Republic galaxy, selected beings who were likely Force-sensitive (and in certain cases likely members of mystic traditions already, like the Dai Bendu), and took them to a very Force-strong planet means that I can't help seeing this as a rather mytho-historical take on the alien abduction phenomenon. But what if they weren't abductions? What if I'm not figuring this right and the event was more like the Tho Yor showing up in the Korriban equivalent of Times Square and inviting a bunch of Sith aboard, in which case no one could have possibly missed it?
One more factor to consider is that even the people gathered on Tython don't know why they were taken there by the Tho Yor, or who built the things or why (other than just to take them to Tython). If the people who built those things were so closed-lipped that they didn't bother to tell the gathered (or possibly even to appear and identify themselves, for all we know), why would they tell the people on the planets they left behind what they were doing? One more reason why later Sith may never have known what role their countrymen had in influencing the creation of the Jedi Order.
But here's an area where your idea may have some interesting implications: if the Tho Your builders wanted some Sith on Tython, one possible conclusion is that they did indeed want the Sith to experience this Force as it was manifested on Tython, and to have a role in building the order to come (which makes sense if they were gathering beings from other mystic and martial traditions as well). If, for whatever reason (which I'll bet the comic will eventually reveal), something happens to get in the way of that, then the entire conflict that makes up the foundation of what goes on in the Star Wars saga - the blood fued between the Jedi and the Sith - may have had its earliest beginnings in a great and tragic pre-historic mistake. Depending on the way that's played (IF that's true at all), there's a lot of possibilities for tension and drama in this on that basis alone.
About the Dathomiri issue...
If not a Kwa is meant here without spoiling it, I hope it is this option:
Rakata who drove the Kwa to go Kwi and devolve came with human slaves from Notron to Dathomir. After the Rakata left, the human slaves were left behind. These, small in number, created a colony that would never spread around the globe but simply tried to survive against the dangerous wildlife of Dathomir. Strong in the Force thx to the Kwa, these humans gave birth to forcesensitive female children (kinda tying the explanation as to why female kids only are forcesensitive there to the planets special characteristics ). Discovering the Force like many other sects on other planets, this protoculture develops a small Forcecult and survives due to their Forcesensitive Ladies (no witches though and NO Zabrak). Then some mystery species discovers they have the Force, puts them on the Tho Yor and off they go. Thus the roots for later Dathomir are there but not quite finished yet, no matriarchy yet, no witches but female human forcesensitives.
Though how to tie that to the Despot War of said characters parents deaths, hmm.. how did Dathomiri end up in Xim's Area far far away anyway. Did Xim reach Dathomir with his explorations as he did with Korriban? So either it is a different Despot War (which would ruin a good reference) or if the same, I wonder if Xim used Dathomiri Forcecult for his purposes, thus the parents of said character.
Another important Question: Is the Tho Yor a Generationship or are the people it pulled from their worlds reach Tython within their lifetime? Second I guess.
And I wonder, if the story starts with the Tho Yor backstory/flashback... how much time will it spent there before it jumps millennia into the future to the prelude to the Force Wars (which won't be shown until DAWN OF THE JEDI: WAR... I suppose ) Because, the characters elaborated on in the interview sound like they are those the Tho Yor carried, not the heroes of the Force Wars arc later on thousands of years later. Or am I mistaken there?
I may have to call mistaken: Ostrander specifically says, "It starts with the gathering of the Force sensitive sentients on Tython in 36,453 BBY. We move quickly as the rest of the Tython system is colonized and the series really gets going with events just prior to the Force Wars, which began in 25,793 BBY." Based on that, the Force Wars will have to begin soon after the series has gotten going. Probably the first story in the series is going to have too much set-up it has to do to just go full-bore into the Force Wars, especially since I'm getting the impression that this Xesh character is going to be the matchstick that lights the fuse on that war.
I have similar questions, though, and to be frank, the ball's been dropped for me before. I had high expectations of Caprica, and it just wandered off into chases across virtual-ville and told stories that I believed were irrelevant to telling the backstory of Battlestar Galactica. It didn't get things on track and start telling the actual story it was supposed to be telling - the origins of the Cylon War - until the last ten minutes of the last episode, and by then it was far too late to catch my interest. And I'm not alone in this: I'm sure a number of you comics fans out there were thinking that the KOTOR series would naturally lead into the period of the KOTOR games if it lasted long enough, right? Didn't happen. And while I do generally like the way Legacy ended, I felt it was rushed - but it wouldn't have felt like that, if they had moved the overall arc forward faster in the first place - there might have been less plot-point wrap-ups they would have been forced to shove into a mere six issue follow-up series, and, conversely, less risk that some plot points would have been missed in the rush to tie things up.
It all comes down to the complaint that the writers may have to factor in the way things have been going for Star Wars comics and make sure not to waste precious
devolve is not a word.... no such thing.
As in the misconceived notion that evolution makes a species better at anything except avoiding extinction, if a species losses its sapience, it is not de-evolution it?s just evolution.
true, but the word was not created to support the notion of evolution = all gets better but to note a step backwards with backwards not necessarily meaning worse, which was your interpretation here, not mine
I doubt it'll be a massive issue. To be fair I always thought it odd that Allya taught her children to use the Force as spells, when she had been a Jedi. That Allya hooked up with a pre-existing witches coven wouldn't be too far-fetched to me. The Dathomiri language itself is Paecian in nature, which we know was injected by 3,000 BBY, but we have no knowledge at all about the Paecian Empire, nor when the witches came into being. We were told Allya did it, but one would expect the witches to be more like the Jedi, especially considering it had only been a few generations after Allya that they met Yoda again.
To the Red Sith, we're looking at an arc set in 25,700 BBY, or thereabouts. That's millennia. The Force Wars or the First Schism could eradicate knowledge of the Sith, or another war such as the Pius Dea Crusades (as our earlier New Sith Wars-class reset switch (see the Chiss and Nagai), or, simply put, be the source of the Sith boogeyman legend that existed in 5,000 BBY. Remember, the Sith were not unknown in 5,000 BBY. We all attributed this to the Sith library on Arkania that was inside Republic space, but it could be because of some earlier event.
Divorcing the Korriban Red Sith from the Tython Red Sith is not too difficult, and can be quite simple, actually, because of the two chances for technological/knowledge/geographical regression we have - the Pius Dea Crusades and the New Sith Wars, both as millennia long catastrophes where the Republic lost territory and was internally damaged.
It could be mildly funny, actually, to see the Dark Jedi Exiles view themselves as connecting up with the true, original members of the Jedi Order - in their eyes, which would put a novel spin on the whole Jensaarai concept.
As I said, I could live with a Dathomiri Force sect earlier than Allya. And as you point out it makes sense. Especially in light of a Sith Academy in New Sith Wars placed on Dathomir (as per Darth Bane Novel, bringing Alchemy to the Dathomiri Forceusers) long before the Zabrak crashed there (as per Leeland Chee Insider article).
What I do not want though is that they look like TCW or EU Dathomiri in dresscode and Forceuse-style etc. yet. And especially NOT that they are a matriarchy, which the Paecian Empire was supposedly not, and at least the matriarchic notion is made by Allya and should stay like that. A lot can happen in 25 millennia, but we'll see.
What I wonder currently is, how large the Paecian Empire was and
I recall that that was explained by a group of the exiles returning to Republic space post- 6900 BBY in a failed effort to strike back at the Republic. They were defeated, but the Republic gained knowledge of the continued existence of more exiles, their new empire, and the Sith.
John Ostrander is a pro. I am sure that he will do his research prior to writing the stories. His track record on incorporating continuity is damn near perfect. Just look at how Legacy and it's entire premise had roots in the New Jedi Order series and the legacy of the Yuuzhan Vong War. Furthermore, it is silly to rush to a bunch of conclusions after only ONE INTERVIEW and within a week of the announcement.
Let me put it to you a different way. On the face of it, Dawn of the Jedi lacks the elements that I really love from Star Wars- the Republic/galactic government stuff, massive fleet battles, etc. Based on that criteria, one would think that I would not like this series. HOWEVER, I learned a long time ago that J&J have ways of telling stories that draw me in in unexpected ways.
Want to clarify ONE point (and only one at this juncture of space and time; the rest should occur naturally in the story) -- "The Despot War" I mentioned has nothing to do with Xim the Despot. Different despot, different war.