Lit Star Wars: Dawn of the Jedi (New series by Ostrander and Duursema)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by max-attac, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Okay, but I'm responding to:

    "Obviously the time frame & details have changed, and this doesn't dovetail perfectly with the DH comics from the 90's."

    :confused:

    The TotJ comics aren't relevant, and the time frame and details match up pretty much exactly with what we've got, because Ruin's story and the history of the New Sith were written as an adaptation of those passages from TPM. What is there to be used or adapted by DotJ, exactly? You're acting like this is some untapped gold mine, when it's anything but.

    It certainly needs more coverage -- I'd like to experience Ruin's story outside of a source book -- but in the NSW era... not DotJ.
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  2. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    Whoah, dude, I didn't say it was an "untapped goldmine" and I also wasn't directing the question at you, chill out!

    The passage is obviously an origin myth, one that doesn't fit the Sith origins outlined in the TOTJ era comics, which are part of the EU continuity, indeed, published by the same company as DOTJ, so it's very relevant. And the reason all that stuff was added was because the quoted passage contradicted what the EU continuity was at that time. If DOTJ shows the original Dark Jedi who starts what becomes the Sith Order, I was just wondering if we were going to see something like this, the actual individual who starts the ball rolling. There are mentions of this unnamed character in TOTJ, it would be cool if DOTJ gave him a name and a back story.

    I appreciate your knowledge but you have to learn how to share that knowledge without jumping all over people, especially when their posts aren't directed at you. If my facts are wrong (which is possible) the thing to do is to offer what you think is the factual information in a friendly manner.
  3. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    I'd be disappointed if DotJ did show the establishment of the Order of the Dark Lords, since canon has pretty well settled on 6900 BBY as the founding of the Sith Order.
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  4. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    As rules are made to be broken, canon is made to be altered. Ostrander/Duursema found a use for Ashlan/Bogan, something from early drafts of ANH that has been toyed with and name-dropped before, but is now worked into the story in a literal way, as the two moons of Tython. I'm sure there were quick & ready canon-reasons not to use the concept but they found a way that works.

    Secondarily: Bogan is place of exile for Dark Side users. I can't imagine they're just going to leave that undeveloped. They also have Xesh, a "Force Hound", on the possible path to self discover. Hmmm, might he become a Je'Daii and then fall to the Dark Side again??

    I like the outline in TPM. I don't mind the various retcons and tweaks either, they're a part of what makes SW so rich & fascinating, but GL's little mythic pre-history might still be used. I'm just curious if Ostrander thinks so!
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Given that there's a Light side-using member of the Sith species in DoTJ- and given that when the Dark Jedi exiles arrive on Korriban, the Sith there are already powerful dark side users- but the Dark Jedi give them a little extra- it raises the question of how the Sith started going dark in the first place.

    Maybe, during "The Force Wars" that Sith went dark- survived, returned to Korriban- and led his people to overthrow their Rakata overlords?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 28, 2012
  6. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    Given Ostrander was one of the first people to put a story to one of the original Exiles with Karness Muur, I find it unlikely he's going to go and retcon out the timeline of the origins of the Sith Empire (especially as it would also contradict various recent and/or on-going series, such as TOR, the recent Book of Sith, etc).

    Now, will we see the first member of the Sith species be corrupted by the teachings of the Rakata and turn to the dark side? Perhaps, but then that's a different story.

    Having said that, right now the Sith member of the DotJ cast seems like a good guy, and Ostrander's oeuvre often features unusual characters that defy stereotypes, like anti-hero protagonists with Vos and Cade, or friendly Hutts like Queen Jool, so there's nothing to say the Sith characters won't turn out to be the good guys.
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    It is true that it would fit his style not to stick to the stereotype. Hope it continues.
  8. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

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    Well that's the point he's trying to make. The Sith species isn't inherently evil or dark, they just had the misfortune of being found and conquered by the Exiles, and forever since their species name was transplanted to the Sith Order as we know it.
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    I got the impression that their culture, since the overthrow of the Rakata, had gotten a bit dark though- with the Exiles not making all that big a difference to the way they ran things.

    Wasn't Adas a very powerful darksider, pre-Exile?
  10. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

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    I think Adas was more the exception than the rule, though. Could the Rakatan influence have tainted the Sith species? Perhaps, but either way, the Sith started out just like most other species.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Makes sense. Interesting to see "Je'daii alchemy" in this period.
  12. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    You've read anger into my response where there was none.

    It isn't, though, because we know to what events the passages in question refer: and they're nothing to do with TotJ.

    Yes, indeed. So? (To be clear: I am not trying to be mean, insult or talk down to you when I say "so?" I'm trying to communicate that I don't understand what the above point has to do with anything)

    It's unlikely, because we know that the "old" Sith Order originates with the Dark Jedi Exiles of 7,000 BBY, who conquer Korriban and the surrounding Sith planets. John/Jan have always shown themselves to be very respectful of the previously existing continuity.

    You mean Xendor? He's later down the line than the current setting of DotJ... but it's quite possible that even the so called "first Dark Jedi" had an antecedent in the Je'daii order, yeah. I'd be surprised if that weren't the case.

    I didn't "jump all over you". Really, I didn't. My responses weren't littered with smileys or emoticons, sure, but I'm not sure why you'd interpret them as being particularly "unfriendly". [face_dunno]
  13. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    >>but it's quite possible that even the so called "first Dark Jedi" had an antecedent in the Je'daii order, yeah. I'd be surprised if that weren't the case.<<

    That's all I'm saying. And even if you don't see it, the passage from TPM represents an anomaly, one that was retconned into continuity, but which can still be used as a template for a story, like Ashla/Bogan was, long after it was replaced by Light Side / Dark Side. Even your example of Xendor recycles the Legions of Lettow, long abandoned even by the time ANH was being filmed.

    I get it, you've got all this stuff memorized, it's impressive. That doesn't mean you have to keep correcting me like I'm pestering you, personally. Mr. Ostrander is perfectly capable of answering the question addressed to him if he feels like it. I didn't ask you for anything and you're not under any obligation to "school" me, let alone feel annoyed that you think you have to. If you're going to offer information, try to be nice, okay? I come here to relax not to get into "who knows more obscure EU" pissing matches with strangers. You might even have stooped to introducing yourself, welcoming me to the Forum, and asking me to clarify my question because you thought you might be able to help me. Ya know, friendly...

    (Oh, and No, I didn't mean Xendor.)
  14. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT'S GOING ON!?
  15. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    Hey! Thanks for the input, good point abt Ostrander's "anti-heroes". Just to clarify, I didn't say "Sith Empire". I mean, literally, the original rebel Jedi who formulates an opposing, organized philosophy. As has been done so many times before with SW, such a character could be worked into the existing story. It would be interesting to see such a character, and I think GL's take on Sith history could provide a nice seed of how to approach it. And yes, I know that elements of that have been mentioned elsewhere but it doesn't preclude having a proto-typical character in DOTJ. It would seem odd to explore the origins of the Jedi Order and not explore the flipside. And don't forget, Ostrander gave us the completely radical Legacy Era, he's capable of going "off road", as capable as GL ;)
    Last edited by Eternal_Hero, Sep 28, 2012
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  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
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    Not quite sure what you're getting at EH.

    TOTJ has the original schism, with a mysterious figure sure, but I don't think there's much in the way of details given is there? I'd be wary of assuming anything where Lucas is concerned, he's done more U-turns than a politician!

    In any case, TPM passage refers back to 2000 years, TOTJ is 4000 years before, another millennium for the Sith invasion, another 2 millennia further back. The kicker being that DOTJ is set 30 millennia ago. In this timeframe the Sith as adversaries is, I think, far, far down the road. Doesn't mean the story can't be told but I think it's a long way away.
  17. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 3, 2012
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    Dark Jedi then.
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  18. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

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    Yeah, that's my whole point! I'm not assuming anything on GL's part but I think it's possible that even 'tho he approved the original "KOTOR" Dark Horse comic series from the 1990's, and is said to have contributed to it in different ways, that he didn't feel hidebound to stick to that chronology. Remember, at that time GL's attitude was that the EU was an "alternate world" that didn't influence the films or anything related to the films. It appears to me (especially since it syncs so well with early drafts of "ANH") that the passage in the TPM novel (which according to Terry Brooks came from GL) represents GL's actual, complete summary of the origins of thew original Sith Order, as of that time (1997-1998). The Dark Horse version of Sith History only wrapped up around that time! They clearly don't sync (without the help of years of retconning). And the little origin myth in the TPM novel appears to be complete in and of itself. For me, that doesn't invalidate the comics, which I loved, although I was glad to see that Lucasbooks worked around it, ha ha! So I could have both ;)

    Now, as we all know, as recently as Seasons 3 & 4 of TCW and the publication of Darth Plagueis, even the influx of Sith related material related to the online TOR game, the SWU can change radically, or significantly, without warning. I mean, that's the introduction & origin of Darth Bane, but I believe that in the DK trilogy, Bane has a female apprentice, right? I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that there's some lost, early Dark Side apostate we've never heard of, such as the unnamed character created by GL (regardlsess of whether he was given an identity, or several possible identities, after the fact, the character Lucas created is unnamed).

    I just happened to remember that passage while rereading DOTJ #1-#5, and I thought I'd ask John about it, because he's always been friendly to me and willing to answer questions in the past on various Forums :)

    I forgot how careful you have to be when you bring up canon & continuity.
    Last edited by Eternal_Hero, Sep 28, 2012
  19. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
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    Oh, I've long given up on Lucas - the man has no sense of consistency even in his interviews, look at a load over the years and some recurrent themes may crop up but I doubt they'll be consistent!

    For myself, I'd like DoTJ to stick to exploring the Jedi and the nature of the Force and its dark side without much of the Sith as a Looming Evil (tm), it'd set it apart from other tales quite effectively.

    I'd say you can post just about any query for John and he might have time to reply, he's very good at fan engagement as it were and a very nice fellow to boot. Jan's similar, but she's chained to a drawing board! ;)
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  20. Brera Sterne Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 30, 2012
    No need for Sith. We have the awesome Rakata as our awesome force-using villains.
  21. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    Agreed. It's rather refreshing to have a light-side Red Sith, but of course I should never have expected anything less from John and Jan.
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  22. Adrian the Cool Jedi Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Dawn of the Jedi will alter canon maybe and show the Sith to have been established in ~25,700 BBY on Tython or Korriban. The entire Star Wars story would become more epic if Jedi and Sith are enemies from their very beginnings and the Republic had to battle Sith Empires since the date of it's founding and not only since 5,000 BBY.
    Last edited by Adrian the Cool, Sep 30, 2012
  23. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    Dec 2, 2009
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    It would be odd, because Legacy specifically included two of the original Dark Lords, and clearly delineated them as Exiles from the Second Schism, falling in line with the 6900 date. It's possible, but it would be odd to see Ostrander and Duursema overwriting some of their old work just to rehash the Sith-Jedi conflict.

    And personally, I'd rather not have the Sith Order date back so far, nor have the Sith Empire constantly be an enemy no matter which era it is.
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  24. Manisphere Force Ghost

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    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    I like the Second Great Jedi Schism right where it is. What keeps the Je'daii interesting is their distinction between Sith and the modern Jedi. If the Sith culture is established 25,000 years prior to 7000 BBY it makes them that much more boring. Suddenly we have one long boring era that starts with the Je'daii and ends...never.
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  25. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
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    I personally find it much more boring if every story can be boiled down to Jedi vs Sith.