PT Star Wars ethics

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Stalepie, May 10, 2013.

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  1. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    No, they didn't want secession - they had built an army, and prepared transportation of that army as a hostile force against the Republic. And NO-ONE is endorsing slavery - in fact lets cut to the chase on this one. You are trying to find the Jedi guilty of flawed ethics based upon their use of a slave army. The reason that NOBODY EVER mentions this in the movies is because Lucas never gave it a second thought. It is a false paradigm by which to judge what the movies are telling us about the Jedi because it is a non-issue within the movies; because Lucas never addressed it; because Lucas never gave it a second thought.

    They have a huge army which manages to inflict immense damage on the galaxy. Their intention (which is obvious enough by what is discovered in itself - ie a huge droid army built in secret with an unusual concentration of Trade Federation ships....what do you think is going on?) is not secession but invasion of Republic planets. Their intention is to force the Republic to do things their way. And, just in case the physical evidence were not enough to discern that, Obi-Wan (and we the viewers) overhear Dooku and the Separatist leadership spell exactly that plan out.
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The clone army was small, smaller than the US military, and they are a match for the CIS. The CIS simply does not have the power you guys seem to think it has.

    The clone army had an initial fighting force of 200K. That's a small army considering we are talking about war on a galactic scale. The facts just don't support this idea that the CIS could strangle thousands of worlds into submission. As was pointed out, we are talking about trillions. I'd put my money on the collective power of trillions over droids that can't overcome a 200 thousand man army. Even with the additional one million units that are soon to be delivered that only puts the number that 1.2 million. That may be a big army for Earth, for a galaxy, peanuts. And that army is a match for these droids that you guys think could oppress trillions of people.

    I was accused of not acknowledging the complexity of this, nonsense. I just came to a very different conclusion. Maybe the Jedi are just a little to quick to decide slavery is OK.



    The Jedi rush in without thinking. They compromise their ethics, and they make the choices that the Emperor wants them to make. Every decision they make is wrong. They are fools, and fools without the strength of their own convictions
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 19, 2013
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    The entire crisis was engineered by Dooku rallying support for secession. The leadership of those worlds most certainly wanted secession.

    Now if we are going to talk about the real hidden goals of the CIS movement, there was only one. And that was to create crisis to funnel more power to Palpatine. That's the only thing any of this was really about. And that's exactly what happened, and the Jedi made it easy for him.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 19, 2013
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  4. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    You're going to reference the opening crawl rather than what we clearly learn from the movie? That's one way of arguing your position I suppose; pretend nothing happened, that there wasn't an invasion army and we didn't hear the true plans of that leadership. That opening crawl also doesn't mention that Dooku is a Sith Lord. Should we believe he isn't?
  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The crawl is the movie.................................

    And again ,

    Now if we are going to talk about the real hidden goals of the CIS movement, there was only one. And that was to create crisis to funnel more power to Palpatine. That's the only thing any of this was really about. And that's exactly what happened, and the Jedi made it easy for him. They played the fool for him, just as he wanted them to. They rushed without thinking, they left their morality and their intelligence at home and rushed off to fight a war with an army of slaves. And you guys think that was the right thing to do...........
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 19, 2013
  6. Kev Snowmane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    The total initial order was for 3 million, and more were ordered as the war progressed.


    It was the largest army the Kaiminoans had ever created, so by galactic standards in that universe it must've been quite large.



    Weapons make a wonderful force-multiplier. Training an even better one. Nevermind the devastating firepower of just a handful of star destroyer-scale capital ships.



    Nope. Accurate. You are blindly focused on ONE moral aspect (perfect ethics regarding the clones) and the rest of the galaxy can just go burn in your calculations. Better trillions die/suffer than a relative few suffer admittedly unjust (in the absolute sense) treatment.

    Real world moral calculus means sometimes someone gets the short end of the proverbial stick.

    Or maybe they're just not willing to sacrifice 1000s of times more people just to persue your "perfect" solution.



    No, they make the best they can with the situation they have.



    In the real world (as opposed to your fantasyland) that is sometimes needed. Your position would have them abandon their ethical responsibility to the free citizens of the Republic.



    Only from the perspective of someone who has more information than they do.


    No, they were deceived by the most skillful liar the galaxy had ever seen.

    Oh yes, they were so without conviction that 1000s of them died during the war defending the Republic... :rolleyes:
  7. Kev Snowmane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    No, the crawl is the lead-in to the movie. It is the summary of what came before, in this case between the end of TPM and the beginning of AOTC.

    Well at least you finally admit that much.

    Because his deceptions were that good, not because the Jedi were that "evil" or "stupid".

    No, they did their duty to the Republic to defend it's citizens against unjust aggression.

    Wrong again.

    It's been explained to you a dozen times now. In real life, often the "right" thing to do is the "least wrong" thing.

    Your "do nothing" B[*] would have seen Sidious in power all that much sooner as the CIS armies rampaged through the Republic unapposed.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, May 20, 2013
  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Half your argument is based on the idea that this army is capable of suppressing trillions of people across thousands of worlds, yet they are forced into retreat by a clone army of no greater than 200K. So, that just does not add up no matter how you slice it up. Clearly that droid army is not nearly powerful enough to suppress such a great range of people. If they were, they would have overwhelmed the clone army in weeks if not days. There is a great deal of disconnect between the power it would take for an army to do what you keep saying it would do, and the power of the army that we actually see.

    It would take manpower on a scale of many magnitudes more to do what you seem to think they could. You keep suggesting that the Jedi made the only decision possible. That it was rush into war, or nothing. That ignores many, many other options.

    The Jedi made the situation worse, not better.

    Their decisions were wrong on every level, moral, strategic and tactical. To be blunt, they are a clown college who got played for the fools that they are. I would not trust them to make decisions for a fast food restaurant, let alone the fate of the galaxy. They did everything wrong.

    I wish the prequels cast them in a better light, but alas it is what it is
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 19, 2013
  9. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Really? Just because the author has not fully thought through the logistics, it is clear what we are to infer from the movies. Arguing numbers in terms of a story we are to understand on a visceral basis seems a little odd. Clutching at straws you are.

    In what way did their decisions make things worse? Did more droids die because the Jedi fought alongside them do you think? Just issuing a sweeping statement with no justification, followed by hubris, hyerbole and invective is not an argument. You are simply revealing your prejudice - ie how you have deemed to view the movies - regardless of whether that position is supportable within the movies.
  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    No one is painting the Jedi and the Republic as villains. But they were far from perfect, ambiguous and made mistakes.


    I don't. I'm glad that Lucas had portrayed them in such an ambiguous manner. This portrayal made them more interesting. In fact, I believe Lucas had started down that road in his ambiguous portrayal of the Jedi the moment Luke discovered that Obi-Wan had lied to him about Vader's true identity.
    Last edited by DRush76, May 20, 2013
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  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not clutching at straws. The movie made it clear that secession by the CIS member worlds was by choice, you keep talking about oppression by this all powerful army. That is an invention not found in the film. The support for the CIS was voluntary. And now we can be done with that line of argument.

    And because of that, it changes the dynamic, the Jedi had other better options, they chose literally the worst one. They attacked, inflamed the situation, created the very crisis the Emperor wanted, compromised their morality, and rushed headlong into action when the proper thing to do was to bide for time.

    The CIS was not capable of the things you keep talking about, their member worlds would have largely been appeased by allowing secession. Secession was the goal for almost the entire seperatist movement. The fact that there was a hidden agenda means little, because those members would have been appeased. That buys the republic time. The Jedi should have seen that, they should have opposed the use of force, opposed the use of the clone army, and opposed the Chancellor. They did the very worst thing they could have done, because they are blind.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 20, 2013
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    The opening crawl is not the movie. It sets the scene for the movie; gives the viewer a brief overview of events leading to the moment we pick it up. Secession is not the aim. Not only is that made clear by the secret building of a huge droid army and the transportation to carry them wherever within the galaxy (the discovery of which would be reason enough to suspect, very strongly, an invasion) but we overhear the leadership of the CIS discuss exactly that.


    The CIS had a huge army of droids at their command. The true nature of the CIS is revealed to us by means of the discussion between Dooku and the other leaders. Who are those leaders, and what are their aims. Well watch and you'll understand. In the same way that the Death Star allowed the Empire to dissolve the last vestiges of the Senate, the droid army allows the leadership of the CIS to put aside the facade of democracy. There is nothing democratic about the decision making process here...have you not noticed that? A small cabal of about a dozen members are concocting the CIS's policies. Doesn't that say anything to you? And you say the Jedi are blind?
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  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    The cabal that you are refer to are essentially the CIS analog to the Chancellor. Both sides are made up of countless worlds that think that they are doing the right thing, and both are being led by evil men with selfish designs. That is equally true to both sides, you pointing out changes nothing. To get the evil plan to work, they needed the very crisis the Jedi are more than happy to help supply.

    The rank and file membership of the CIS is not evil, they believe that they are separating themselves from an evil and corrupt Galactic Senate. And they are correct. The same argument can be made in reverse, the Jedi are working for agents of evil just as the CIS membership is.

    Palpatine needed to fool the Jedi into fighting the separatists, into pitting these two factions against each other to create the crisis to exploit, and those fools are more than happy to play the role he designed for them.

    And this "huge" droid army, we already debunked this idea that it is powerful enough to force thousands of star systems into doing anything. The CIS worlds are going along willingly because they have been tricked into thinking it's the right thing. If secession is granted, support for further conflict melts away, giving the Jedi and the Senate time to maneuver. And this "huge droid army" not only does not have the size required to subjugate worlds on that scale, an attempt to do so would show the member worlds of the CIS the leadership's true nature, leading to even more rebellion among their midst. The Jedi are simply fools. They leap into action without thought, without question. They are mindless puppets happy to dance on Palpatine's strings.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 20, 2013
  14. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    There's a difference here that you seem unwilling or incapable of accepting. The Republic decides to act against the CIS based upon the information they have (the huge droid army, the tansport and the plans revealed by the leadership of the CIS). We, the viewers know about this as well.

    That Palpatine is actually manipulating the Republic is known by us, the viewers but it is not known by the characters in the movies. Let me repeat that, The characters in the movies do not know the true nature of Palpatine. That is central to understanding the story. Nor is there any reason they should know unless they had the privileged positionwe, the viewers have - which they don't. There is no reasonable basis to judge the actions of the characters in the movies on the basis of information they do not, and cannot, have.


    At least here you accept that Palpatine has to fool them...but then it seems they are only fooled because they are "happy" to be. Where have you picked this idea of happiness up from? I don't rememebr any Jedi cheering at the fact that they had a war. In what way were they"happy" to be fooled?

    Do you understand what fraud is? You must be aware that legal systems find fraudsters accountable for fraud, yes? Why do you think that is? According to your logic here, anybody defrauded can only have done so because they were "happy" to be.

    Actually it hasn't been debunked. You have merely come up with some bizarre argument of numbers, where the nature of the army is stated within the films. Whatever you might think of the author's logistical calculations are irrelevant to the meaning in-universe of the size of the army and the undemocratic, despotic nature of the true leadership of the CIS.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, May 21, 2013
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  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Um, actually the true nature of the crisis being hidden from the Jedi works against your point, because the only one who overhears them is Kenobi who is taken prisoner. The rest of them, the ones who decide to start a war don't know any of it.

    The Jedi rushed into action without taking the time to understand or learn, that is the point I've been making over and over. You're just helping me make it.

    This is just a cop out. It is what it is, the army does not have the strength you assign to it. You can dance around that fact all you want, you made a claim, and you can't back it up. And in fact, giving one side such a powerful army is not in Palpatine's interest, he wants a sustainable conflict, not one that can be won by either side. He also doesn't want Dooku to have too much power, or before you know it Dooku will turn that power on Palpatine, that's what Sith do.

    The movie tells us that the Separatist member worlds are in this for ideological reasons, this idea that they are being oppressed is not supportable. I didn't make up that character motivation, the movie tells us that. We even get the sales pitch from Dooku when he tries to sway Kenobi. Those worlds are in this by their choice, not force.

    And this claim that the CIS droid army could suppress thousands of systems, you made that calculation. Now, you want to talk about bizarre calculations, that one is as out there as you can get.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 21, 2013
  16. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    It's not immoral or illegal for them to do so. Nor is it immoral or illegal for the Supreme Chancellor to take the position of not allowing them to secede.

    The Jedi don't have visions of the future? Maybe said Jedi had a vision of the Republic needing an army in 10 years and decided to tell no one so that it couldn't be cancelled before its completion.
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  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    That is pretty much how The Essential Guide to Warfare (and the Darth Plagueis novel) did it- though "he was murdered before he could tell anyone" may also apply.
  18. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    You might want to watch the movie again. Obi-Wan is captured after transmitting his report to Anakin, who then forwards that to the Jedi. There is a scene where Obi-Wan's report is being viewed by members of the Jedi Council, Palpatine and a number of Senators.

    It is not a cop out, it is how storytelling works. We are told, through the dialogue of Dooku and the Separatist Leadeship, of their plans - which are clearly as they have been described to you. They clearly don't share your concerns that they may not be able to take along the thousands of allied systems. Why do you think that is? Does it look like a democratic situation to you? Does it seem the leadership is concerned they may not keep the good will of the systems on their side?

    An argument based upon some vague guestimate of how many droids would be required and an equally vague guestimate of how many there actually were has nothing to do with the story that is being told; in other words, given that the CIS leadership is not concerned by any potential backlash despite their plans being exactly what you claim the other Separatists would baulk at there is obviously something amiss with your reasoning in terms of the story. The story does not rely on logicistical exactitude; it is to be taken from the movies that the CIS feel they have the droids they need to carry out their plans.
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  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    His transmission is cut off, they don't get much information out of him before. They certainly don't know the nature of the crisis.

    And no, the movie does not tell us that the droid army has the capability that you assign it, unless you care to show me that now. Go ahead, show me where in the movie the ability to suppress thousands of worlds is discussed. They discuss joining their droid armies, they don't discuss the ability to suppress literally thousands of worlds.

    What the movie does tell us, is that the CIS leadership has tricked the member worlds of the CIS into their support. That is actually found in the movie. We can dance around this until the sun burns out, you're just wrong. They are giving their support willingly, you just can't get around it. Your whole argument is based on an idea not supported by the film.

    And again, Palpatine doesn't even want one side to overpower the other, he wants sustained conflict in which he can funnel more and more power to himself. The clone army has in initial strength of 200K, with a million more on the way. That is an army of 1.2 million. And they are an even match for the droid army, otherwise there would not be sustained conflict That isn't a "bizarre calculation", that's the story. The movie tells us in no uncertain terms why the CIS membership follows Dooku. I'm not talking about his cabal, I'm talking about the rank and file membership that they need. They are not being threatened, they think they are following a political idealist who is fighting corruption. It's lies mixed with the truth, the Senate is corrupt and is being led by an evil man. We see Dooku use that sales pitch on Kenobi That isn't me saying this, that is the movie. I'm not the one who needs to watch it again
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 22, 2013
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    They are directly involved in slavery, that is immoral. They rushed into action, leaving morality at the door.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 22, 2013
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The Republic also has EMP-style weapons. Granted, we don't really see this in the films, but they do appear in the EU.
  22. SithStarSlayer Ntwadumela: he who greets w/ fire Prequel & SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Obviously, the Senate didn't see Clones in that light, otherwise the existing law would have prohibited their inclusion to the Grand Army of the Republic. Unless I've missed a retcon somewhere.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, May 22, 2013
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  23. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    The clones aren't slaves! They're... uh... interns! Yeah that's right!
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  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Well, as convenient as that may be for them, they are still dealing with slaves. Slaves created in a lab and genetically manipulated to be pliable. That is evil. People often try and rationalize their own evil behavior.

    You can call a dog a cat, but it's still a dog. And the clones are a slave army, no matter how the Senate or the Jedi may have rationalized it.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 22, 2013
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @Captain Tom Coughlin: Question(s).

    Are you strictly focusing on the Jedi "compliance" with using the Clones, regardless of any other situational issue(s)? If so, the discussion is really, really narrow.

    How would you feel if the Jedi asked the Clones if they wished to participate in the war? I'm not talking about the presumption that all would say "hell, yeah" because of the way they were bred and raised, but the fact that the Jedi would give them the option.

    Is it your contention that any/all decision/act of the Jedi regarding ethics and morality must be strictly judged on its isolated merit, regardless of other decisions and situations simultaneously going on? (For example, a Jedi does not "participate" in unethical/moral activity regarding "A" while by doing so, equally unethical/immoral "B" happens because of Jedi non-involvement.)
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