PT Star Wars ethics

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Stalepie, May 10, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    Can a clone who has been genetically altered to be compliant really even be expected to make those kinds of decisions? They were created to be soldiers, it's their only purpose. The Jedi should have opposed the creation of any more beings the minute they learned of this army.

    You call it narrow focus, I call it complicity in slavery, I find it interesting how many of you take up for the Jedi on this.

    And again, despite talk to the contrary, rushing headfirst into war was a mistake even with the ethics questions put aside. They acted foolishly.

    If you want to know what I would do if I was a Jedi in that situation, I would leave the order if the Jedi were to do such things. I would openly oppose the war, the army, and I would support allowing the CIS member worlds to secede.

    There is always more than one way to solve a problem. Secession for those worlds buys the republic time. Support for war melts away if you placate those worlds. And if the CIS were to turn on those worlds, you can support insurrection, although as I have stated several times their army isn't powerful enough to keep thousands of worlds in check. It takes a lot to suppress a population. The CIS would not be able to threaten the republic and police their own membership. That all works to the Republic's favor The Jedi are fools, not only did they make an unethical decision, from a strategic and tactical sense they made the worst decision possible. It's their fault that the Republic is transformed into the empire. They acted foolishly.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 22, 2013
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Did I say I was "taking up" for the Jedi? I asked an honest question to clarify (for me) your stance. It is (your stance), as I understand it: the ONLY moral/ethical action for the Jedi was to decline involvement with the Clones and - perhaps - seek a peaceful solution through negotiation with the CIS and once that failed, if so, to not be complicit in the Republic's actions against the CIS once war was initiated.

    Corollary to that: nothing that happens to anyone else is the Jedi's ethical dilemna because the Jedi are only responsible for themselves?

    Seriously, I'm not trying to "pin you down" or anything - I want to know if I understand YOUR position correctly that any action the Jedi take stands on its own merits and is utterly divorced from the actions of others.

    If that is correct, the "disconnect" here is between those who see a complicated web with no easy/correct answers and those like you who see it as one issue at a time irregardless of other issues. And that is not to say either viewpoint is inherently better than another. I think everyone concedes the Clones had no choice and no one applauds that.
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  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I did not mean you, just in general

    As to the rest,


    Close, but with the caveat that there are other ways to fight that war. What they needed was time.

    What I've been trying to convey is that by rushing into war, not only did they make the wrong choice from an ethical standpoint but also from a strategic one. They knew something wasn't right with all of this, they leaped forward without thinking anyway. They were reckless and stupid.

    They should have removed themselves from the situation and looked for answers. They are not soldiers anyway.

    So yes, I do believe that the Jedi are responsible for their own decisions and their own role in these events.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 22, 2013
  4. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    We don't get to see the transmission, but to claim that they "clearly don't know the nature of the crisis" ignores the events that unfold from then. Clearly they know enough that the Senate votes emergency powers to Palpatine. That is hardly consistent with your claim here

    I get so peed off with arguments of this nature. Circular and - I would have said self-referencing but it is actually the very opposite. It appears that you cannot remember the argument. I shall remind you.

    You argued that the Separatists were simply wishing to secede. It was argued that that was not the case, that it was actually invasion of the Republic that the Separatists were aiming for.

    You claimed that was ridiculous because the Separatist systems would not go along with that; the Separatists would lose their backing. The response was that, counter to that, that clearly is the aim of the Separatist leadership - and that is exactly what we hear the Separatist leadership discussing.

    You claimed they don't have enough droids to enforce their will over the Separatist systems. The response was that the leadership clearly were planning what you considered they could not (for lack of support from the Separatist systems) and that, therefore they clearly do not consider that support as necessary. Either the Separatists would go along with an invasion or the Separatist leadership simply do not care; it would follow that, if they did not care then it was hardly a matter of democracy and that the Separatists felt that they had the power they required to follow through their plans.

    The nature of your argument here is overtaken by what we see in the films. Your claim is, essentially, that the CIS leadership cannot, do not have the power to, invade the Republic - but they clearly are planning exactly that. It is a non-argument. Putting a notional numerical slant on it makes it no more of an argument. Simply saying 'they can't' does not work - because that is exactly what they are planning. What is so difficult about this concept?

    When did I say otherwise. At the beginning of the film many systems have gone over to Dooku's side because they believe he is an idealist. At the beginning of the film. The crawl is not the film. That they have been tricked into their support is obvious by the end of the movie - as you accept here. Their support is clearly not important to the leadership of the CIS as is made clear by the plans that they have and their lack of discussion about the support of the systems involved. Join the dots.

    But you have accepted that they are tricked by Dooku, and in fact the interests and ideals of the many systems are of no import in terms of the true nature of the CIS, which is identified to us in the movies by the undemocratic cabal of corporate, banking and industrial oligarchs who are the true power of that organisation. according to you they don't have the power to invade the Republic. According to the film they believe they do, and it seems every character in the movies believes they can.
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  5. ILNP Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    I'll say again. It is not immoral or illegal for the Jedi to go along with or support Palpatine's position that he will not allow the Separatists to secede. This argument has nothing to do with the clone/slavery issue.
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  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    Of course it does, it was their rush into war that forced them to set aside morality and involve themselves in this use of slaves.

    As to the rest of that, the decision to side with the Emperor on the secession issue was not inherently immoral, it was just stupid. Their stupidity and their rush into action is a factor into how they ended up abandoning their ethics.
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    They are planning an invasion WHILE THEY HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THEIR MEMBERSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    In fact, in the conversation Dooku has with his cabal, they even mention that their support is growing. Dooku even uses that support as a sales point to the cabal, that he is confident he has 10,000 more worlds ready to join them! THAT SUPPORT IS A KEY FOR THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or do you just wish to keep ignoring that fact? What they are capable of with that support, and without that support, are two very different things. If they did as you suggest, turn their guns on the CIS member worlds that would no longer supports war, that changes everything. They would have their hands full with that. They wouldn't even be able to do it.

    I don't care if you are peed off, you also happen to be wrong. That meeting was about consolidating support for their actions. That invasion is only possible while the idea of secession is on the table for those member worlds. That is their goal, even if it isn't Dooku's.


    Now, the Jedi on the other hand know that the bounty hunter that was the template for their clone army went to that planet, that should tell them that there is a possible connection between Dooku and the creation of the very army that they are going to lead. And what do these buffoons do, they start the very war that the Emperor wants them to fight. Unthinking fools.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 23, 2013
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  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    OK, kids, chill out. Let's keep this discussion about stuff that happened in a galaxy far, far away a bit less heated, shall we?


    (Do young people say 'chill out' anymore? It means 'calm down', FYI. And to 'shake your booty' means to wiggle one's butt. Permit me to demonstrate...)
  9. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    [IMG]
  10. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    At least now we have undone the idea that the Separatists cannot afford to invade the Republic, and that allowing their secession is - therefore - a redundant proposition. Exactly as it was argued to you, and that you stated was not possible. So, we can move on without the need to answer the empty suggestion that the Republic could simply have allowed the Separatists secession and all would be well.

    You miss the point. The discussion all came about because you declared that the Separatists couldn't afford to invade the Republic because they would lose their support. My arguments were intended to show that that ism exactly what they had planned. You seem to forget why the discussion was raised. ( to the point that you now categorically state that they were going to invade the Republic with the support of those systems - which is exactly the opposite of your original argument)


    And so, we lead into another situation where the Jedi a) should know more than they do and b) are responsible for the decisions of others.

    That a bounty hunter has been used as a template for the clone army and that he also appears to have a connection with Dooku says nothing about the Clone Army. He is a bounty hunter. He is paid for his work. He does not take sides - that is the nature of a bounty hunter (in the context of the Star Wars universe). It raises questions, absolutyely, but the Jedi do not make the decision to use the Clone Army. They don't start the war. As you have very clearly accepted above, the Separatists are planning to invade the Republic with a huge droid army. Not only that but it is the Senate, through their leader Palpatine, who aauthorise the actions against the Separatists.
  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The rank and file membership of the CIS is supporting war for the goal of secession. That's it, it is cut and dry. Allowed to seceed, they have no motivation to fight. Dooku loses his powerbase.

    The CIS members think that they are fighting for the right to secession, they won't support war for the sake of war
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 25, 2013
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Let me try this a different way, if the republic were to grant secession to the CIS, what specific motivation do you believe the bulk of their membership would have to pursue war? What specific reason? I don't mean Dooku, I mean the average CIS member world. Why would they continue to support war once that goal was achieved? I mean specifically.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 25, 2013
  13. darth fluffy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    star 2
    What? You're not making very much sense. What point are you trying to make?
  14. ILNP Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Maybe they wouldn't. That is very much a possibility. It's equally possible that an incident will be created to whip up support for war. I think the point of contention between you and many others on this thread is your absolute statement that if the Republic allows the CIS to secede that war is averted. While that is entirely possible there are also any number of ways for the CIS (and like minded people in the Republic) to start a war.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    And we'll never know, because these idiotic Jedi forced the issue, and in doing so rushed into the use of the slave army. That is the entire point. They inflamed the situation. They made it worse. They made literally the very worse decision they could have.

    Maybe Palpatine would have come up with another way to try and bring about war as you suggest, well then you deal with that situation. That's neither here nor there considering the choice the Jedi had at the time.

    It was by choice that the Jedi went along with this. They chose to become slave drivers.

    It also doesn't happen to be an all or nothing proposition. The Republic does not become defenseless if the Jedi choose to walk away from that army and oppose it's creation and use. But these characters never considered those options, they just started a galactic war to save three people
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 31, 2013
  16. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    What? Even though you've just declared that the CIS was about to invade the Republic with the support of their many systems you're still arguing as if secession is an option?

    Well I really don't think there's a maybe about it but...its an odd play to this particular game. You are right to say we should look at the choice the Jedi had at the time... There was no choice 'allow secession'.

    The alternative being? You have yet to offer any alternative action that results in a better outcome...other than the fatuous 'allow secession' which you've accepted is a non-starter because at the time (which above you claim is very important) it is about 'invasion of the Republic'.

    And so how would their walking away be better? What better result would be had?
  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I'll just ask it again, from before

    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
  18. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    The totality of the CIS army, of which the Geonosis operation was but one part (and one that had gone undetected for as much as a decade at that).


    Which is what they pretty much do.

    The forces on Geonosis at that time were forced into retreat, along with the Sep leadership.

    Yes it does, because that is what happens in the movies. The droid armies terrorize the galaxy.

    As I said above, "clearly" it is powerful enough, because it does.

    Which is discussed in the series, which shows the Republic is badly LOSING, needing more clones, and nearly bankrupting itself in the process.

    Nope. We see them doing exactly what I and others have described.


    Apparently not, because otherwise the war would have been over in months, instead of 3 years and even then only barely won by the Republic.



    No realistic ones. They know that the Seps have a production facility that has been operational for who knows how long, that the Seps have tried to assassinate Republic leadership, and that the Seps have an army poised to strike.

    And, again, no one "rushed" into anything. 10 years were spent on negotiations, courts, hearings, and blather, which resulted in ZERO effect.


    Only from the omniscient perspective of the viewer, who know more than the Jedi (and the Republic) do.

    No, no, and no. They were absolutely correct for the information they had measured by practical definitions of those terms.

    Again, no.

    They kept the peace for over 1000 generations. I'd credit that as a darn good job.

    Only from the viewer perspective, and those who don't understand real life vs abstract ethics.
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  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You make my point for me, three years later they are still fighting a war, and this all powerful galactic wide army could not defeat an army of clones no stronger than 1.2 million at the outset. That war should have been over in a week if the droids were even close to as strong as you guys keep claiming.



    Tell me how an army of galactic scale cannot defeat an army on the scale of a nation on Earth? Show me how that happens?

    Show me where in the movie the CIS is suppressing these trillions of people in the CIS? They aren't suppressing them, they are manipulating them. Show me the scene that talks of this suppression, I'll go put my DVD in right now and watch that scene.

    The Jedi were stupid enough to play their role for Palpatine.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
  20. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Oh yes you are.


    No, it didn't. At worst it is silent on the issue. We know from TPM that the powers behind the Seps were more than willing to "convince" worlds to support their cause.


    1) *cough*Naboo*cough*

    2) The film is one film in an entire saga of 3 films plus a TV series. All canon.

    No and no.



    Still wrong.


    Again, only from the PoV of the omniscient viewer.


    Again no. The crisis was there. The army and the threat it represented was there. Diplomacy had been ongoing for a decade and had failed to resolve the matter.


    Dealt with many times previous. You are wrong. Factually in error. Incorrect. Not stating the matter factually.

    How much more time? When would it be the time to act? When the droids were literally rounding up the Senators from the Chamber and carting them off to camps?

    Chamberlin would be proud of your line of reasoning.


    Except for the fact that, you know, they were, because we see them do it over 3 movies and a tv series.


    There is evidence that the Sep Senate would perhaps, but only if you take the series into consideration. Which opens the door to all the evidence that the real power behind the Seps would not be satisfied. And they, not the Sep Senate, controlled the droid army.

    The cause celebre, perhaps.


    So they would have been appeased...so what? If they had told Dooku, the TF, et al to stand down do you belive for one minute that they would have? There is an expression that applies here: Pay Danegeld and you will forever have trouble being rid of the Dane.

    10 years wasted already, an army at the doorstep. Time was up.

    Blinded, by the Dark Side, and by the most skilful liar the galaxy had ever seen.
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  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Naboo is one world, not tens of thousands

    I'll ask it again, how does this all powerful army of galactic scale that you keep describing not put down a clone army on the scale of one Earth nation?

    They could overwhelm Corucsant in literally one battle. They could send trillions of droids out to destroy every clone production facility, they could put an end to this war in days if they had the power you assign to them. Explain this. If you guys want to keep making the case that this army has that kind of power, the floor is yours. Make the case now. Go on.

    And I am discussing the plot of the films, I don't care one bit what the EU says on any of it
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
  22. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    IOW, the one with the real power.

    Granted.

    Correct, it does not change the fact that there was going to be a war, one way or the other. Either the Republic attacks, and there is war, or the Republic sits on its rear and yaks and yaks and yaks until the droid armies attack and then there is war. Peace was never going to be permitted by Sidious.

    The crisis was forced upon them. The Jedi didn't build the droid army. The Jedi didn't threaten innocent planets with tyranny and pillage. That was 100% Sep.

    Granted.

    In many ways, yes. But it is the legitimate government of the Republic nontheless.

    He preferred that option. But if the Jedi had declared themselves out of the fight, then the droid army is still there and ready to rock and ruin the Republic.

    Sidious is orchestrating a Xanatos Gambit on a galactic scale.


    No, they're doing their duty to protect the legitimate interests of the Republic, to the best of their ability given the information they have.


    There is this thing called the Prequel Trilogy...perhaps you've watched it? There is this series called "The Clone Wars", perhaps you've heard of it?

    And then Dooku, et al go to Plan B and invade outright anyways. They just do it nakedly instead of under the false flag of Separation.

    See above.

    Again see above. And the "rank and file" Seps would have been just as unready as the Republic was. Even less so, because even barring the clone army, the Republic still had the Jedi and the Republic Navy and it's associated forces.

    No, you simply hate the Jedi and want to pin the "blame" on them, rather than on Sidious where it belongs.
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  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I didn't go into these movies wanting to hate the Jedi. Why would I hate the Jedi when I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a little kid? I just call them like I see them.
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  24. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    No, you just don't like it.

    Except for the fact that it does, because it did do exactly what we said it did.


    No, you just don't want to admit that we did in fact do so.


    Only because they never broke with Dooku.

    No it doesn't. The Sep Senate is never once mentioned in the movies, only in the TV series.


    And he's lying through his frakking teeth, and both he and Obi-wan know it.

    Nope. Fully supported by canon evidence.
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to any of this. It's just a bombardment of one line thoughts from old posts. This isn't even a discussion. I guess I'll just wait for you to finish
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
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