PT Star Wars ethics

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Stalepie, May 10, 2013.

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  1. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    1) Again, you are wrong. Neither the Jedi nor the Republic "rushed" into anything. There was a decade of negotiations that went nowhwere. Then they discover the factory on Geonosis and the transports waiting to take the droids into battle. At that point, they made the most moral choice they could, given the clear and present danger the Sep droid army represented and in the light of the intelligence they had received.
  2. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    It appears in the Clone Wars tv series, which is in fact canon per Lucas himself:

    Game over, series haters. It's canon.
  3. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    And you can say that the droid army couldn't suppress even a significant part of a galaxy, but it did for 3 years.

    And using that army was better than losing the Republic (which would have happened either way, but the Jedi don't know that).
  4. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Well then you were watching different movies than the rest of us did.
  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    So, if that was true why is it clear that when Anakin and Kenobi meet Grievious on his ship in EPIII it is clearly the first time they have ever been face to face? Did they just forget all the times they saw him during the series?
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  6. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Perhaps in the abstract yes. Given the situation they were in, no they shouldn't've.

    Because the Jedi were right to support the legitimate government vs the usurpations of the true Sep leadership.

    Since they didn't "rush" into anything, this statement is basically useless. They acted correctly given the information they had as opposed to the information you wish they had.

    And when the armies marched anyways?

    Not in this case.


    10 years gone by with nothing to show for it except a droid army poised to attack...and you want more words. Even Chamberlin would not have been that obstinate.


    And the Trade Federation et al attack anyways. Same effect.

    You've stated it many times. You're as wrong now as you were all those other times. They did do just that for 3 years. And Palpatine's fledgling Empire suppressed both sides with an even smaller army.

    See above.

    Nope. They were Xanatos-ed by the greatest Xanatos Master their galaxy had ever seen.
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Just let us know when you're finished bombing the thread and we can go back to having a normal conversation.
  8. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    No, he loses his cause celebre. His powerbase (the TF/BC/CG/et al cabal and the droid army) remain.
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    'Plot-demands-it' gonna plot-demand....
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Big problem with that, in Attack of the Clones we see his meeting with that cabal, and his sales pitch to them to sign his treaty is in large part that he has the backing of these thousands of worlds. You guys just don't get it, because you don't want to. They aren't under the gun, they joined Dooku willingly because they think they are doing the right thing.

    All this talk of the membership being held at gunpoint is simply not true

    I've issued the challenge before and I'll do it again, show me the scenes that back that theory up. Show me the scenes
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
  11. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    No, they responded to a clear and present danger to the legitimate government they were sworn to protect. And their refusal to recuse themselves changes nothing.

    Let's examine the Xanatos of the situation:

    First chain: Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones -> Palpatine orders the clones into the field regardless and the CW progresses from there, leading to the Rise of the Empire-> Palpatine wins

    Second chain: Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones ->Palpatine makes a show of agreeing with them and orders the clones kept out of the fight->Dooku and the Seps (under Palpatine's orders) invade with the droid army and quickly overpower the otherwise all-but unprepared Republic->Palpatine reveals the fact that he in fact was behind it all, uses the droids AND the clones to establish the Empire->Palpatine wins.

    Third chain: Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones and denounce the Chancellor->Jedi lose support from the public as Palpatine paints them as either cowardly or treacherous and orders clone army into the field anyways-> CW plays out and Empire rises-> Palpatine wins.

    Fourth chain:Jedi recuse themselves, citing the questionable ethics of using clones ->Palpatine orders army into field->Jedi act against Palpatine, citing his actions and decisions->Palpatine declares them traitorous and turns army on them in whole or in part while droid army continues to attack the Republic-> Republic falls either way and Empire Rises-> Palpatine wins.

    There are other more complicated twists and turns one could throw into the mix, but they all have the same outcome: Palpatine wins.
  12. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    It does not matter, because the real power (the cabal and the droid army) remains. And so do the clones.
  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    The "Palpatine wins no matter what" argument is a non-starter as an in-universe justification. Might as well say "Palpatine wins no matter what, because the OT already said so".

    "Blinded by the dark side" is not a plausible in-universe reason. It's an excuse . Lucas' original back-story mechanism of 'treachery' on the part of Palpatine was more believable and would have worked just fine, in my opinion.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 1, 2013
  14. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    1) The droid army was holding back in many ways. Dooku (under Palpatine's order) was playing to a rough draw. The point was to weaken the Republic in terms of finances and infrastructure, raise Palpatine's standing with the people (a la George Bush 43), and to reduce/distract/weaken the Jedi preparatory to Operation Knightfall.


    It's called the Prequel Trilogy and The Clone Wars tv series. I suggest you watch both.



    They didn't need to because they still had the support of the CIS public behind them. If/when that support stopped, the CIS would have suffered the same fate Naboo narrowly escaped in 30 BBY and that 100s of Republic words suffered during the Clone Wars.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    If it was just a matter of using overwhelming military force there would have been no need for pretense, they would have just done it.
  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Wow, what a copout. You spent the past hour bombing this thread and you won;t even answer questions.

    Show me the scenes in the film that backup these ideas, specific scenes. Go on. And I don't care what the TV show says on the subject, it's it's own story with it's own plots and it's own writers. You might as well be talking about BattleStar Galactica
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
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  17. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    It shows the CIS' modus operandi at work.


    Asked and answered already.


    We already have. You just don't want to listen.

    1) There is plenty of film-only evidence, as I and others have shown you.

    2) Whether you "care" or not, the series IS canon, per George.

    I quote again:

    If you disagree, I suggest you take it up with George.
  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    The plot of the movie and the plot of the show are two seperate issues

    If you want proof, the show and it's ideas did not even exist at the time these movies were put together. So, obviously these Johnny come lately type of ideas do not influence the story as told to us in the films. As I mentioned earlier, it's obvious Anakin and Kenobi are meeting Grevious for the for the first time in EpIII, did they just forget that they have met him in the Clone Wars? If it's canon, surely they know each other? How can that be? That is one of a thousand examples. They are seperate works of art, and must be judged separately accordingly.

    I like the Clone Wars show, I give it no thought when discussing the movies.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
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  19. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Those represenatives are not the Sep Senate or the public. They are the factions being invited into the real seat of power, Dooku's cabal.

    At that point maybe, maybe not. The films are silent on the topic. We DO know, both from TPM and the series how the Cabal operates when it gets its way, and it has very little to do with votes and Senates and a great deal to do with droid armies with lots of weapons.
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    The films are not silent on the matter, we are seeing exactly how Dooku consolidates his power. And it's aboluteley not what you have been describing. That is the whole point.

    The movie is very clear on exactly how and why these things come to pass. Silent on the matter? Hardly, it's just not saying what you would have it say
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 1, 2013
  21. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    I would say that blinding their ability to perceive him for what he truly is, embroiling them in a galactic war that kills them by the 1000s, weakens the remainder both physically and in terms of their individual internal balance with the Force (to the point that some fully fall to the Dark Side, such as Krell and Barris Offee), then having a programmed clone army shoot all but a relative handful of the rest "in the back" qualifies as treachery.
  22. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Perhaps, but Palpatine did it this way for a reason. Better to lure the Republic into weakening it's own position for him first. Makes it easier to control the badly damaged, nearly bankrupt, and war-weary survivors.

    Essentially, he "frog potted" the galaxy into submission.

    ("Frog potting" refers to the classic experiment in desensitization where it was shown that while frogs put into a pot of already painfully hot water would immediately hop out, and frogs introduced into a pot of cold water that was rapidly heated would hop out as soon as the water became uncomfortable, frogs put into a pot of cold water and heated gradually [allowing the frogs to acclimate to the new temperature in stages] would remain in the pot until they literally cooked to death.)

    It could also be said that Palpatine used the war as a massive distraction to keep the Republic's attention focused on the Seps while he did the real damage internally. (Which would parallel what many say about the Bush43 administration, which Lucas has admitted was a large source of inspiration for him.)
  23. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    I've answered them. Others have answered them. You are trying to impose a very specifically narrowed filter on the canon to limit responses to those which favor your position.

    Take it up with George. He canonized it. It counts.
  24. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    No, they are not, per George.

    The PT and it's ideas didn't when the OT was filmed, except in very vague terms, many of which George himself revised and replaced over time.

    Yes they do, per George.

    As I mentioned earlier, it's obvious Anakin and Kenobi are meeting Grevious for the for the first time in EpIII, did they just forget that they have met him in the Clone Wars?[/quote]

    Anakin hadn't, and NEVER in the series does he actually meet Grevious. Nothing says that Obi-wan never met him prior to that.

    See above.


    1) It's not an example at all, let alone one of 1000s.

    2) Take it up with George. The series a) was produced under his own personal supervision and b) is canon per his direct statement.

    Too bad. It's canon. It counts.
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The tone of this thread needs to change, now. Stop the baiting. Debate the ethics found in the films, or this will go on ice.
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