PT Star Wars ethics

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Stalepie, May 10, 2013.

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  1. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Its implied. In most cultures, especially primitive ones, the men are the warriors and hunters, while women stay back as caregivers.
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  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Don't know about "never" - but retaliating, as opposed to defending, is often problematic.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 12, 2013
  3. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    I suppose if your going to nit-pick I should choose my words more carefully. Replace "Never" with "Generally not". I was actually talking in context to the scene, not life in general. But don't worry as I say next time I'll choose my words more carefully :)
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's mentioned in The Life And Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, that a renegade Jedi, a Tusken adoptee, was leading them- Obi-Wan defeated him, forcing him to leave the planet.

    The Kenobi novel may focus on what happened with the Tusken after that, I'm not sure.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Star Wars doesn't really follow Earth conventions though. We see plenty of female fighters and pilots for example, along with female Jedi and female bounty hunters. Additionally, there's no indication in the films whether the men or the women kidnapped and tortured Shmi. It could very well be one or the other (or both), regardless of who the fighters are.

    My point is simply this: killing a male is equally as bad as killing a female. I don't judge the deaths of the female Tuskens to be worse than the males. The men dying is equally as horrible.

    The only groups they should be separated on, in my opinion, are perpetrators, bystanders, and children.

    Unfortunately, Anakin has no way of knowing which were the perpetrators and which were the bystanders and I don't think he was really in the state of mind to give it much thought.
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  6. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Because the Star Wars mythos spans an entire galaxy we get to see a lot of different cultures, and it very much follows Earth conventions. We don't see any female pilots btw. Regardless we do see independent Western-style women like Leia and Padme who can and do fight for their causes. But we also see primitive species like the Tuskens and Geonosians. The indication is made out of their primitive culture, it can be assumed men are the warriors and women are the gatherers. This is further solidified by Anakin stating that he killed women and children as well. Why would he mention them if they were the same as the men?
  7. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    Killing that many people for one is excessive. And a Jedi should not be doing that many things.
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Errr...we do see female pilots, in the battle of Naboo. We see female Jedi warriors of many different species -- the Twi'lek, for instance along with humans and other species such as Barriss'. And there's no indications that female Geonosians don't fight -- wherever did you get that idea? Regardless, even if the men are fighters and the women gatherers, which is never indicated in the films (what the heck would you "gather" on Tatooine?), that doesn't mean the women don't hold equal responsibility. They have functioning adult brains, just like the men do. And there's no indication that Shmi was tortured by the males rather than the females. The Tuskens might have a culture where male prisoners are controlled by the male Tuskens while female prisoners are put under the charge of female Tuskens, we don't know.

    Regardless, the simple principle is this.

    A man's life = a female's life

    NOT:

    male life > female life

    or

    female life > male life

    Killing the women is equally as reprehensible as killing the men. But women are equally as intelligent as men and have equal capacity to make decisions -- they are held accountable to the same standard in my book. So I consider the loss of the female Tusken's lives to be on par with the men's. I don't put women down. But I don't put them on a pedestal either.

    Only the children, in my view, should be given differential consideration in regards to their lack of maturity and experience. But women aren't equal to children. Women are equal to men.
  9. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Food and water.

    In a hunter-gatherer society the fact that they were males alone indicates they are the one's who go out to hunt..and thus capture Shmi. As well as perpetrate violence against her.

    I made no mention of female Geonosians..
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, May 12, 2013
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Tuskens aren't human, though. They may not necessarily have the gender divisions that pre-modern human societies do. The younger members, for example, might go out to hunt while the elderly watch the children. Additionally, once Shmi is tied up, there's no indication that the women would not have taken part in her torture. If it were a ritual ceremony, for example, perhaps the women might have been the ones to specifically perform the acts. We don't know.

    Plus, this line of thought assumes that all the men in the camp either captured or beat Shmi and that none of the women did. In all likelihood, it was only some of the individuals in the camp.

    So I stand by what I said -- the women are equally as guilty or equally as innocent as the men.

    Women should be grouped with men, not children.
  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Still arguing this one?

    What was wrong was Anakin killing everyone in blind rage and retaliation. Sure, some of the women may have been complicit, but he presumed (if you can say a man consumed by rage and grief can actually presume) everyone was guilty and deserved HIS retribution. Guess a lot of the posters here also believe the women are just as guilty, although not one of us - you or me - really know. So what - kill them all anyway and that way you'll be sure to have killed all the guilty and perhaps some innocents as well.

    Those who mentioned killing the kids to prevent them growing up to be like the adults - well, talk about killing for fear of potential future problems rather than actual problems. By that standard, Palps was right to have the Jedi infants killed. They would have gown up to be adult Jedi, even if there was no one left to teach them how to be Jedi.

    Might as well kill the children anywhere, anytime that might grow up to be like the parents we think are bad people - it's the only way to stop them from also being bad people in turn.

    (And yes, Anakin was not in his right mind when he slaughtered them all, but he sure wasn't in a Jedi state of mind, either.)
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @Valairy Scot

    I just wanted to clarify that I don't think that what Anakin did was right by any stretch of the imagination. Even if everyone in the camp tortured his mother, I still think it would be wrong to have killed any of them. I recognize that he wasn't in a very sane state of mind at the moment though.

    What I object to, though, is grouping the women with the children. The deaths of the men and women are equally horrific. It's just as wrong to kill a man as it is a woman. No more and no less. That was the only point I was trying to make.
  13. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I think the reason most people group women and children is because that is what Anakin seems to do: he says to Padmé “And not just the men, but the women and the children, too” which could indicate that Anakin thinks his actions are made worse by the fact that he also killed women and children.
  14. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    It is fair to accuse the Jedi in the PT of having questionable morals, but that's kind of the point. The Jedi as we see them in that period are a fundamentally, deeply dysfunctional organization. They're hypocritical, shortsighted, arrogant, isolated, out-of-touch, sclerotic, navel-gazing, impervious to legitimate criticism, and incapable of reforming themselves. That's exactly why it was the will of the Force that the Order be destroyed and reborn under Luke. Luke's New Jedi Order is a much different, far humbler, and far less "ivory tower" organization, and is a much better one for it.
  15. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Women are grouped with children usually, especially concerning war/violence. So I would say the opposite. This is confirmed by Anakin explicitly stating "the men are the only warriors among the tuskens."
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  16. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I'd prefer to group them as: guilty and innocent. I understand that may have been impossible to determine at the time, and certainly there were no courts available to do so. Cutting down those he needed to escape, or even perhaps those who drew weapons on him...but beyond that, we are not allowed to see just what takes place.

    I do find it fascinating that that GL, through Anakin, wants us to think Anakin exceeded *any* (zero to plenty) reasonable retribution, but that so many think Anakin did entirely the right thing in "wiping out a menace to civilization" (and no, I'm not directy quoting any poster; that's just the impression I get).

    Back to the subject, though, I am equally flabbergasted at those who paint the entire Order with a brush as if the individuals were in a conspiracy to deny reality and march lock step. As with any organization over time, it fell into habits and routines but that by no means makes the Order worthy of extermination or culling. As to:

    Some were, some at times. Same as the Senate, I'd say, minus the navel-gazing. The complaints leveled at the Order are of human magnitude and for heavens sake, this knocking them down because they are so far from perfect is absurd. They were never going to be perfect.
    .
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  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    In what way are their morals questionable? What is it about their morals that you find questioable?
    Hypocritical? When do they behave to a standard they denounce?
    Shortsighted? In what way? Are they not, rather, unsighted? They are deceived by Palpatine (everyone is), by Dooku, by Anakin.....If I place a slab of frosted glass between you and an eye test does that make you short-sighted? Or does it mean you've been blinded by the frosted glass?
    Arrogant? Some, perhaps, in some instances. The most obvious example being...Anakin. What examples can you offer of this arrogance?
    Isolated and out of touch? When the battle of Geonosis is about to erupt Mace has to get together as many Jedi as are left in the Temple because most of them are on missions - ie out working in the galaxy at large. They seem to have a good idea of what is what (Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon know that Tatooine is a Hutt world, and Qui-Gon has a good idea of the workings of the planet - hardly befitiing the idea of 'out of touch'). They also seem to understand what is going on within the Senate. Of course they become more isolated as the movies move on, but that's all part of Palpatine's plan isn't it?
    Sclerotic? They seem to have to constantly respond. They seem capable of reviewing their thinking - eg from not training Anakin to agreeing to train Anakin.
    Navel gazing? Is this not excatly what they don't have time to do? Is this not part of the process of blinding them to the truth. Thay6 are plunged into a war, manipulated so that they may not have time to consider what is really going on. What examples of this 'naval gazing' do you have in mind?
    Impervious to legitimate criticism? Example?
    Was it truly the will of the Force that the Jedi Order be destroyed? Was the Empire, the rise of Sidious, the fall of Anakin, then, the will of the Force?
    Last edited by only one kenobi, May 13, 2013
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  18. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    But does GL really do justice to that idea? Padmé marries him after this event, but is aghast at finding he killed Jedi children (even referred to within the film by the taboo-totem "younglings"). We can put this down to Padmé's feelings on the matter, rather than refelcting any deeper significance - which in itself raises questions about Padmé (I think). But....whereas his igniting his lightsabre in front of the "younglings" is clearly a defining moment of his turn, his killing of the Tusken children has no such impact.

    Now, as to the argument he is acting in rage, not coldly..... Isn't anger and hatred exactly what Palpatine wants Anakin to feed off? Isn't it what he later hopes for with Luke? Isn't it Luke's refusal to kill in the rage of hatred and anger that averts his fall?
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  19. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    That could be a great thread to debate your initial question IF it could stay on target - and I guarantee it would not. I guess all I can say is "justice to that idea" is in the eye of the beholder. Many of us "got it" and many "got another idea" from that scene. Can I prove "I'm right" - nah, and certainly don't insist one can't look at it another way. But I can certainly believe that since Anakin, the initator of the action in question, himself feels he did wrong - well, that is the lens we are supposed to see it through.

    As for Padme - she wasn't there. She sees Anakin hurting and in pain, grief-stricken. I don't give her a pass as such, but I also understand she is human and capable of too narrow a focus so she's not really self-aware of Anakin's rampage. That's another whole paragraph or two I won't go into, but at least she should have insisted Anakin speak to someone about his loss of control...

    And killing the Jedi younglings - I find it fascinating that a few insist Anakin was not shown to have killed those kids and hence never did kill those kids.

    As to intended impact of either scene - good question and I'd have to think a bit on how to actually address the question, though I suspect it might come down to the focus on Anakin's post-understanding of his reaction (AoTC) and the lack of caring about his actions (ROTS), although that's a bit badly stated on my part.
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  20. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Padme says to Anakin after he tells her what he did to that village "to be angry is to be human". She seems to brush it off.
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  21. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I think people judge Padmé harshly in that situation. She goes down to try and comfort a person she cares deeply for over the loss of his mother and suddenly she is standing with a confession to mass-murder on her hands: she is clearly completely out of her depths (who wouldn’t be?) – torn between compassion and horror – and in the end she decides to offer understanding because of her love for Anakin and because he is clearly hurting deeply as a consequence of his mother dying in his arms and his actions afterwards. And yes, her words are perhaps poorly chosen, but IMO very few people would actually be able to offer words of wisdom if they suddenly found themselves in Padmé’s shoes.

    I think Padmé rationalized that Anakin’s actions against the Tuskens was due to a lack of control which was a direct consequence of the extreme circumstance of having his beloved mother die in his arms after months of brutal torture; and because Anakin recognised the wrongness of his actions and was remorseful, and because she knew that humans have the capacity to become consumed by blind rage which makes them capable of doing things beyond their control, she decided she could forgive him.
  22. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @FARK2005: I quite agree with you, although I really really think she should have encouraged Anakin to seek counseling or somesuch - for both his own sake and for the sake of those future folks he might well be tempted to inappropriately act on behalf of (like, say, saving his wife at the cost of the entire galaxy and lives of millions).
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  23. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    @Valairy Scot, I agree with you completely (especially with the kind of power Anakin wields), but maybe she did encourage Anakin to talk to someone like Obi-Wan or Yoda - maybe she even made him promise to do so. Unfortunately Anakin chose to talk to Palpatine because he knew Palpatine would tell him what he wanted to hear rather than what he needed to hear.
    Last edited by FARK2005, May 13, 2013
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  24. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    For something that was meant to take us away from reality...


    we sure spend a ton of time dragging it painfully it back down to earth.

    ***

    So glad Lucas didn't send Anakin to see a shrink.
    :p
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, May 13, 2013
  25. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Taking children from their parents to indoctrinate them into a cult, commanding a slave army, and unquestioningly fighting for a side in a Civil War whose claims to being the "good guy" are questionable at best come to mind.

    Standing against slavery, except when they need a slave army to win a war, comes to mind.

    Again, if two teenage padawans could figure out that there was something fundamentally wrong with the war that was being fought, a council full of wise men, some of whom were centuries old, should have been able to figure that out, and without it taking a few years and billions of dead sentients to do so.

    The Jedi Council was full of wise old men who should have known better, but didn't.

    Their belief in their own infallability led them to underestimate the danger on all sides.

    Sorry, but if they really would have known what was going on in the Republic and the Senate, they wouldn't have gotten outmaneuvered like they did. And yes, Palpatine and Dooku were bad guys. So what? Again, the fact that someone wants to fool them isn't an excuse for a Council full of wise men with centuries of diplomatic and military experience between them - not to mention supernatural powers - to fall for it. If the Secretary of the Treasury announced that the country was broke because he'd given the keys to Fort Knox to someone who sent him an email saying he was a Nigerian prince and needed help to get some money moved around, whose fault would that really be?

    It's entirely reasonable to expect wise old men who ought to know better, to know better.

    They never seemed to seriously question their own ways or the rightness of their fundamental beliefs about themselves.

    To paraphrase G. K. Chesterton: It isn't a bad thing to be certain that you're right; but it is a bad thing to be unable to imagine how you could possibly be going wrong. The Jedi Order never asked themselves that.

    How about leaving their ivory tower, getting out in the real world, and seeing how average joes live? Remember how shocked Ahsoka was when she saw Letta's apartment?

    The final arc.

    Yup.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, May 13, 2013
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