PT Star Wars ethics

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Stalepie, May 10, 2013.

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  1. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    Secretly built huge droid army on Geonosis. Unusual concentration of Trade Federation ships on said same planet. Now, if a nation finds a huge number of troops being gathered secretly in one place, and a concentration of transportation for those troops, what do you suppose they might conclude from that?

    Let's not forget what Obi-Wan says to Anakin after Padmé fell from the gunship. If they can get Dooku then, then they can end the war.... The reason for the intervention is to try and stop, at source, what is clearly an army of invasion. They act to try and curtail a war which is inevitable; the concentration of troops and transport for those troops makes it clear what is really going on. Lest any viewer should be in doubt, we also overhear the plans of the Separatist leadership (and the plans for the Death Star are here also - a not very subtle hint as to the link I made in response to @Captain Tom Coughlin)
  2. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Not all who are in power will have victory.
  3. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I think that there is nothing to be taken from that. The reason, I believe, that there is so little reference to the ethics of using a clone (and essentially slave) army is because Lucas never gave it a second thought. He simply delivered on the 'Clone Wars' as referenced in ANH, and that's as far as his thinking went on the matter. That is why there is no rumination within the films on the principles that we can all see and are debating about.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, May 17, 2013
  4. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    There is a difference between abstract ethics and practical ethics.

    You are engaging in abstract ethics, where the only possible "ethical" answer is the perfect answer. With enough information and enough time, a "perfect" answer may be possible.

    In real world situations, information is never perfect and time if often a luxury the decision makers do not have. Practical ethics makes the best decision possible within the constraints of the situation as it is, not as the decision makers might wish it were.

    In addition, abstract ethics allow one to embrace an ethical principle without consideration of any other factor. Each case is considered in total isolation, where the decision affects the subject and the subject alone

    By that reckoning, it is technically correct to criticize the Republic for using "slave" soldiers.

    However, you cannot dismiss the equally valid claims of the trillions of sentient citizens of the Republic to their lives, property, and liberty. Scoffing at the issue by calling it "utilitarianism" does not in any way change the fact that in the real world, events, actions, and decisions are inter-related.

    Aid this person and a thousand others go unaided. Absolute freedom for for the powerful is enslavement for the powerless.

    I would for once like to see one of you attempt a positive case for the ethicallity of death or enslavement for a galaxy in exchange for "perfect" ethical treatment of the clones.
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  5. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    Funny how the first invasion of Naboo didn't seem to cost them all that much politically, innit?


    1) Naboo (again). There was precedent for viewing ANY droid army being built as a direct threat.

    2) It wasn't just the building of the army. It was the knowledge Obi-Wan discovered that the Seps WERE planning to attack.

    The Republic had been engaging in non-stop "negotiations" for over a decade at that point, while the Seps built up their military. Yet you insist that the way forward was more bogged down negotiations and more pointless yakkity-yak-yak.

    How very Nevile Chamberlin of you.

    And you condemn every man woman and child in the Republic to slavery or death at the hands of the Seps.



    The events that had happened to that point (Naboo, the assassination attempts, etc, leading up to the discovery of the droid army on Geonosis) made Sep intentions perfectly clear. Any reasonable person would draw the same conclusions

    1) that is your opinion

    2) you are attempting to ignore the canon portrayal based on that opinion. "realistic" or not, that's what happened and that's what we have to go on to judge.


    If it's filmed, it's canon. That's the rule. You don't get to dismiss "inconvenient" canon.


    No, you're saying that the entire Republic deserved to suffer based on the decisions of the leadership that you don't agree with.
    Last edited by Kev Snowmane, May 17, 2013
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  6. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    I, personally, understand your points here. Yet I still fail to see how what your saying does not = the end justifies the means

    I'm don't want to argue whether or not the end does justify the means, or whether or not the needs of the many do outweigh the needs of the few. I'm just looking for clarity as to how the argument for using the clones doesn't amount to utilitarianism.

    Also, I don't think defining your argument as a utilitarian argument amounts to "scoffing."

    If I've missed your explaination as to why placing the needs of the galaxy above the clones' freedom to choose what they do with their lives is not utilitarian in nature, please forgive me (sincerely).
    Last edited by Son of a Bith, May 17, 2013
  7. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    Fair insofar as it goes, but there is a limit. Real World: our "democracy" is not working, and hasn't for some time. Our elected officials vote to further the interests of the elites who line their campaign coffers, not the interests of the constituents who they are supposed to serve. We put Democrats in, we put Republicans in, but little really changes. Look at the firestorm over immigration. The people have said, and continue to say that they want illegal immigrants OUT of the country. They want the government to put the interests of citizens first and foremost. Yet here we are with yet another "amnesty" bill so that Democrats can have cheap votes and Republicans can have cheap labor.

    This is a historical pattern. The Founding Fathers kept faith in their version of "democracy" right up until the point it became abundantly clear that nothing was going to change. They then did the only thing they could do, the only thing left that they could do.
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  8. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    You are so blindly focused on that ONE issue ("slave" clones) that you consider no other interest or effect on other parties.

    Classic adacemic/abstract thinking. The kind that allows Hitlers to take over continents while Chamberlins make speeches and wave pieces of paper about...
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  9. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    The tone of this "conversation" has gotten much too snarky for my Bith blood. Seacrest out.
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  10. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

    You act as is if they hadn't been in over a decade of non-stop committees and negotiations and yakkity-yak-yak-yak already. You act as if they hadn't already been invaded once (Naboo).

    Your way would have the Republic talking itself to death right up until the first bomb fell on Courescant. Frankly, I suspect you're just pot-stirring because no REAL government would allow a threat to get that far based on an abstract moral principle.


    Any government that would sacrifice the lives and liberty of it's citizens to give "one more chance" to an already proven enemy is failing it's primary duty.

    I don't blame you...no one likes to lose, after all...
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  11. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    I think it has to do with how the point was argued.

    I personally think it's unethical.
    I believe it would be very difficult to argue that the use of the clone army would be ethical except perhaps under utilitarian ethics:

    Utilitarianism is a theory in normative ethics holding that the proper course of action is the one that maximizes utility, specifically defined as maximizing happiness and reducing suffering.

    In general, though, I don't find that utilitarianism addresses whether an action is moral or immoral very well.

    In this form of the argument the abstract notion; the ephemeral ideal of ethical content is the deciding factor. Utilitarianism is here conjued as a 'lesser' form of ethics, where ethical standards are to be measured on a plane beyond worldly requirement. This is purely academic. It is academic both in terms of it being an academic pursuit and, by extension, utterly redundant within the process of real world events.

    In short, it is that the term 'Utilitarianism' is here portrayed as being of no import to ethical standing, whereas for those of us encumbered by reality (ie everyone outside of a debate well removed from the time and place in question) our decisions have necessarily to reflect the circumstances we find ourselves in.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, May 17, 2013
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  12. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    Assumption.

    Yes, if it profited the Trade Federation (as at Naboo).

    They invaded Naboo. There is discussion of other similar incidents ongoing.

    From the Jedi's perspective, the Trade Federation, already known to have a penchant for invasions of sovereign planets with droid armies, is caught red-handed building another one on top of being linked to assassination attempts against major public officials.

    No, they were fighting an aggressive military force under the control of leaders already proven to have plans for conquest.[/quote]
    Last edited by Kev Snowmane, May 17, 2013
  13. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    Did a pretty decent job of doing just that it seems. Led to a 20 year Empire in point of fact.

    1) Speculation

    2) Then another cause celebre is invented, or it's Plan B, a direct attempt at overthrowing the Republic. Once built, the droid army isn't going to be unbuilt. And with the army to force the issue, Dooku, the TF, et al can move forward on the basis of naked power alone if needs be.


    Yes it was. Only the form was mutable. Palpatine was never not going to attempt the overthrow of the Republic and the Jedi.


    And if they did not, they would have played some other role in the war that was always going to come.

    If a person comes into your home brandishing a weapon, you are under no obligation to actually allow him to hurt you with it before you turn his head into a canoe. Law (and morality) presumes the right to self-defense in face of a clear threat (which the Seps absolutely were).[/quote]
    Last edited by Kev Snowmane, May 17, 2013
  14. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    On the narrow technical issue, you are correct.

    My continuing issue with you is that you reject that metric without substituting and/or defending a different one.

    If you do not subscribe to "most good and least harm" as a real world general standard for ethical decision-making, what standard would you propose?
    Last edited by Kev Snowmane, May 17, 2013
  15. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    Assumption.

    Yes, if it profited the Trade Federation (as at Naboo).

    They invaded Naboo. There is discussion of other similar incidents ongoing.

    From the Jedi's perspective, the Trade Federation, already known to have a penchant for invasions of sovereign planets with droid armies, is caught red-handed building another one on top of being linked to assassination attempts against major public officials.

    No, they were fighting an aggressive military force under the control of leaders already proven to have plans for conquest.[/quote]
    Last edited by Kev Snowmane, May 17, 2013
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  16. ILNP Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Even if allowing the Separatists to secede would have removed all basis for Dooku to start a war, with Palpatine stating he will never allow them to leave, it makes this argument moot. How can you prevent war by allowing them to leave when the leader of the Republic refuses to allow them to leave?
  17. darth fluffy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    star 2
    Then it's the Republic in the wrong. This should be one of the red flags to the Jedi that a Sith Lord was manipulating the war.
  18. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    They already knew that. But being against secession doesn't make one a Sith Lord.
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  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    But again, those are the plans of Dooku and his inner circle of Seperatist leaders, their plan is evil and corrupt. But the thousands of systems that are actually the driving force behind their war effort, that combined industrial strength, are following political ideals. The plan works because the Jedi foolishly play the role the Emperor needs them to play.

    If you are suggesting that they could have just seized control of those worlds once they rebelled, they may have. But that changes things a great deal, it forces the separatist leadership to focus on internal strife as opposed to outwardly projecting power. And that buys the Jedi time to find other ways to support the systems caught in that web.

    The Jedi had other options. they chose this path on their own. Just as Palpatine wanted. Their blindness, foolishness, and yes, lack of morality, led to the outcome that they got.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 17, 2013
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    Ah, but they go along. They choose to support those decisions with their continued involvement. They dance like puppets for the Emperor.
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    "You want to keep the Republic intact?!...Oh my god YOUR the Sith Lord!!"
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, May 17, 2013
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  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The red flag should have been the existence of the army itself. Here is this mystery army, that nobody knows about, commissioned apparently by a dead Jedi, that becomes available right at the convenient time that it is needed. If that isn't a red flag. what is? The Jedi's fault, both ethically, and just as a matter of logic, is that they don't question. At least not in any deep way. They question it superficially, but then just go on dancing on Palpatine's strings. They are fools. Blind fools.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Who later turned out to be alive at the time it was commissioned.
  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    In the movie, the circumstances surrounding the creation of the army are unknown to the Jedi, and that's all I care about. That was what they had to go on.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 17, 2013
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's the whole point. "Unknown" does not equate to "dead when army was ordered". You seem to expect the Jedi to jump to conclusions.
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