STAR WARS FANWORKS TEASER ("Project Sonja" Revealed...Sorta)

Discussion in 'Fan Audio' started by Nathan_P_Butler, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    http://www.starwarsfanworks.com

    That's the address of the newest site in the StarWarz.com network that will go live within the next month. As for what the site will include, we'll leave some suspense on that for the moment, but suffice to say, when we call it a real "home" for the fan audio genre, we mean it.

    Check out the Flash Teaser now at the site's address.

    (When the site goes live, the teaser will remain, but we'll tuck it away into a little corner of the site, just for the curious.)

    Thanks to Rich Sigfrit for giving life to my trailer script and to Sonja Nelson for creating the Fanworks logo used in the teaser.

    Time to get excited, no?

    I'll answer what questions you might have before launch, but I'll try to remain at least a little cryptic. Where's the fun in spoiling things, right?

    (And, yes, since it's a teaser, the "click logo for site" will just repeat the teaser. Once the site's open, it'll send you to the site itself.)
  2. LawgSkrak Force Ghost

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    Sweeeetttttt!

    September 1st right?
  3. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Or before. It's really just a matter of waiting for Rich to get his first episode of ROTO ready to go. Soon as that's taken care of, it'll go live.

    For a while, it'll be a redirect domain that'll put it into a subdirectory of StarWarz.com, but once StarWarz moves servers around the start of September, it'll be separated out. Either way, it'll be the domain name that'll be the way to get there, so hopefully people won't bookmark the wrong URL.
  4. keithabbott Force Ghost

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    I kinda feel like TFN is missing out on all this. But such as life. The site looks really good since the new direction you took with it Nathan. Lookin' good.

    Keith
  5. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Thanks. That old one was basically a "dummy."

    Once we decided that we'd be sorta stretching ourselves too thin to try to go for multiple styles of fan productions (and just to stick with the audio "niche," like most of the StarWarz sites do with just filling "niches" in the community), we did a big redesign.

    I did up a quick black and white JPG in Photoshop of how I wanted to set up columns and such, then handed it off to Sonja Nelson (hence calling it Project Sonja) to basically just "go play." Once we had the basic mechanics and look down, all that was left was transferring the information from the dummy to the new site, then creating some of the new things, like the database looking people directory.
  6. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    I'm not sure I'd say that TFN has "missed the boat" on this one. More like they were on the boat, didn't like the cruise, and hopped off before getting too far from shore.

    On the same token, you could say that a lot of sites, StarWarz included, did the same with fan films. We picked up with Legacy and the stuff from Far Away Discourse Productions, but otherwise, we let it go, as did many other sites. TFN Fan Films ended up filling that "niche."

    I have the feeling that with Fan Audio, TFN would, in a way, find itself in the same position as they have with Fan Fiction. There's already a huge site out there, lesser known, called FanFix.com, which is HUGE and sort of the central hub of the Star Wars Fan Fiction community, as it has been for years. TFN has started its own library, but while it's possibly more visible, it'll never be quite as comphrehensive or "niche-filling" as FanFix has been.

    I figure audio is a lot like that. First, they'd be just starting a new section, which isn't nearly as focused as a single site (like TFN Fan Films runs basically autonymously due to also being Jeff's FanFilms.com). Second, they'd basically be starting out with very little availability of content.

    I figure we have the following projects all out there right now:

    1. The Adventures of Luke Skywalker
    2. Coruscant?
    3. Episode 3 Spoof
    4. Jedied
    5. Rise of Nobility
    6. Space ****
    7. The Radio Play
    8. Stormtrooper Bob
    9. Second Strike
    10. Resurrection
    11. Smuggler's Run
    12. The Musical
    13. Context
    14. Doubts Cast
    15. Dreamscape
    16. The Mob
    17. Addiction
    18. Responsibility
    19. To Overcome
    20. No Way Out
    21. Gary Mongar's Audio Drama
    22. Exile Zero
    23. ChronoRadio
    24. Requiem of the Outcast
    25. DLR
    26. DLPG
    27. DL 2.0
    29. JediTalk
    30. SW En Direct

    Of those 30, thirteen (43.3%) are Fanworks/StarWarz exclusives. One (0.3%) is French language. One (0.3%) is long dead (JediTalk). Three (10%) are hosted (though we make no claim of exclusivity) by Fanworks. Four (13.3%) are already hosted by TFN Fan Films (if you count DLPG, which is not actually hosted, but a tangenital part of DLR and DL 2.0). One (0.3%) is a "for sale" item that wouldn't be hosted anywhere free. At least one (0.3%)doesn't fit the TFN content regs. One (0.3%) was an afterschool project, not something meant for overall hosting or particpation in the genre.

    That really only leaves four, three of which are spoofs, and the other is Rise of Nobility.

    In that kind of situation, it seems like any Fan Audio site would have trouble hitting the ground running right now. It seems to me that it'd be very much like TFN Fan Fiction in relation to FanFix. It might make a good little area, but it's a niche that, at least right now, they just can't adequately fill.

    But that's just me. I think that if you're going to fill a niche, you fill it, rather than just pay it lip service.
  7. SoloCommand Manager Emeritus & GTA Coruscant Developer

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    Still skeptical of signing up sorry Nate. :p

    Not being a 'fully Star Wars-oriented director', I'm not sure if the site will offer everything I'm after.
    We'll see.
  8. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Well, what're you "after?"
  9. SoloCommand Manager Emeritus & GTA Coruscant Developer

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    A site to host all my projects in one handy bunch :p , I'm sure a Final Fantasy 7 and Hitchhiker's Guide Tribute would look great on 'www.starwarsfanworks.com'

    But... hang on, Space **** too?
    That's pretty diverse. [face_mischief]
  10. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Well, I'm listing Space **** in the Audio Drama section under "other," so there's a link to that site.

    And you could easily have a Jedied or Space **** page set up under the "Page-Hosting" that would let you host all your own files, and have links to all of the related projects and the overall site on the page itself, just sort of to get attention.

    That's an option that hasn't been taken by anyone yet, but it's similar to what we're doing with Star Wars: The Musical.
  11. SoloCommand Manager Emeritus & GTA Coruscant Developer

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    That sounds very respectable Nathan, I'll get back to you on that.
  12. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Cool. No rush. On the "Page-Hosting" option, we're not at all dealing with an issue of server space (since, for us, it's basically just an extra HTML page or two), so we'll be taking those, presumably, forever. :)

    I should also note that one of our goals with the site is to be as unbiased in news reporting and promotion as possible. For instance, even though StarWarz and TheForce.Net have, in the past, had major issues of contention, I really don't care about what may have "gone before," so we'll not be excluding Stormetrooper Bob, the Digital Llama shows, and such, from being linked to and whatnot. I figure we're here to really just promote the hell out of a new genre that needs a home and a sort of "hub" for those seeking information. TFN does that for Fan Films, usually quite well, particularly in news coverage, so we're trying to do the same for Fan Audio. That way, fans of both genres can sort of have a "home" for fans to get information and such.

    Of course, it's a lot easier for Fan Audio, since there's probably 30 - 35 projects out there right now. That's why getting in early, particularly for the IMDB-style directory, was important to us. Do it early, do it well, and let yourself build on solid foundations.

    Basically, I say that to say: if you don't go for having a Fanworks page, it won't matter when it comes to news coverage and such. We'll cover whatever we can dealing with Fan Audio Dramas and Fan Radio Shows. The genre's what we care about, not affiliations.
  13. keithabbott Force Ghost

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    Nathan, on the un-biased topic... :)

    I'm going to lay it all on the line here and tell you what my concerns are in regards to hosting. And before I get into this, let me first say that nothing's cut in stone. It's possible that I could change my mind depending on how things progress from here.

    That said, here are the reasons....

    1. The graphics were too similar to those from your own projects. Meaning logos for Resurrection and Smuggler's Run looked just like some of the graphics from your other projects. To me that's subliminally brand marketing their projects with yours. They really should have their own look. I don't want there to be any possible confusion as to who created Rise of Nobility or any other projects that may end up being hosted on this new site.

    2. Many of the items were self-promoting. For example the profile of the month (the first month even) was of yourself. Why not try and profile someone else like? Perhaps a nod to the folks of Stormtrooper Bob perhaps, or Ted Alderman. Then there were things like quotes from Second Strike in your mission statement.

    So basically #1 and #2 fit in the same package. When I go to starwarsfanworks.com site I think it's Nathan Butler's site first and foremost. Now, that said, I know that it is technically your site, which is hosted on T'Bone's site and there's nothing wrong with people knowing that. But I think if you're going to brand a fan audio community, you need to make sure it has a more communal look and feel to it and that it tries not to be biased in any one particular direction.

    The graphics have substantially improved since you initially started it. It does lend itself more to a "new look" that's not so consistant with how your timeline pages look. And that's definitely progress. But what I would want to see in this site that would make me want to have our files there, would be less "me and I's" and more "they, he's and she's". See what I mean? And of course that's figurative when I say that.

    I seriously doubt you are doing all of this on purpose. But from an outsider's perspective, like myself, the site may seem to be self-propelling for Nathan Butler. I feel that's probably not your intent, but it just feels that way after seeing how you created the timeline pages for Resurrection and SR, and the look of those pages, and now this new site.

    Please don't take these observations too personally. It's just that, for example, when I approached sites like NataliePortman.com I knew I wouldn't feel like I was in competition with them.

    Remember when you included the words "the 2nd serious audio drama" in our news description?

    The reason I asked that those be taken out is that I felt we must be in competition with each other. Is the goal to be first or something? I could care less who is first or second..third whatever. I just want people to enjoy what we've all created and not get everyone caught up in the details of things that don't really matter.

    Hopefully this all makes sense to you. It's not a personal jest, but these are my feelings which really aren't debateable. But I am willing to discuss what it would take to get our files hosted. That's definitely negotionable. But you don't have to make changes if you don't want to. That's completely up to you as to the direction your site takes. I'm only telling you my reservations which I hope is of help.

    Keith
  14. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Well, to ease some concerns:

    1. The graphics were too similar to those from your own projects. Meaning logos for Resurrection and Smuggler's Run looked just like some of the graphics from your other projects. To me that's subliminally brand marketing their projects with yours. They really should have their own look. I don't want there to be any possible confusion as to who created Rise of Nobility or any other projects that may end up being hosted on this new site.

    On that end, if you still have access to the site, you'll find that's not something that was intentional. The only reason that the SR and Res. logos look like those from Anthology is that when those logos were made and sized to fit, it was for their pages on the Anthology site, where they were set to be hosted. To make the posters similar so the site looked right with the left bars as they were for Anthology, I had to work up some quick new logos for those projects. You'll find that on the final site, Smuggler's Run uses the banners I made, just since they had none of their own, while Resurrection only uses the one I made in the menu, as it's more legible, while the full banner they used for the TFN Fan Films teaser is the one on their actual show page.

    Other projects, such as The Musical and Requiem of the Outcast, use their own banners. The only time there's any need for me to create a banner is when the original project doesn't have one to submit to be used. They all need a menu picture and a banner for their page, so if one isn't submitted, I'm left with making one, or having Sonja make one.

    Even now, if the Resurrection guys came up with a better small link logo or the SR guys wanted to create their first banner, I'd be all for using it. It was simply necessary to have something, even if I had to make it, not any issue of "branding" anything.

    2. Many of the items were self-promoting. For example the profile of the month (the first month even) was of yourself. Why not try and profile someone else like? Perhaps a nod to the folks of Stormtrooper Bob perhaps, or Ted Alderman. Then there were things like quotes from Second Strike in your mission statement.

    Actually . . .

    1. The profile of the month isn't me. The one with me was a placeholder until we could get it all set up and figure out how we were going to be swapping them out. The actual profile for the opening is Amy Ferrell (since, well, for visual appeal in the first profile image, you can't beat that picture of "Ames").

    2. The same goes for the "latest release." It was always intended that the firs release promoted there, even if Rich's show and The Mob came out at the same time, would be Rich's show . . . but until a few days ago, he had no logo for me to use yet, so I had to keep The Mob as a placeholder.

    As for the quote from 2S, two things:

    1. First, tell me of a quote in another audio drama that makes as much sense as a descriptor of the genre than Dehrahn's "you're small, but you're growing" line.

    2. Second, note that it's not just 2S used as the example. There is also a quote from Rich Sigfrit's show.

    When I go to starwarsfanworks.com site I think it's Nathan Butler's site first and foremost. Now, that said, I know that it is technically your site, which is hosted on T'Bone's site and there's nothing wrong with people knowing that. But I think if you're going to brand a fan audio community, you need to make sure it has a more communal look and feel to it and that it tries not to be biased in any one particular direction.

    Being done as we speak. However, we have to really be open a bit before we have others submitting things for hosting. At present, there's my four projects hosted, as they were at StarWarz.com, as the non-timeline areas of StarWarz/timeline have been folded into the site, but we also have Rich Sigfrit's show, InFauxMedia's Star Wars: The Musical, Michael Mays' Smuggler's Run, Ted Alderman's Resurrection (which I had only a quick voice role in), and links, hosted and not, to every different fan audio projec
  15. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Addendum:

    Did a quick news tally.

    As of right now, I've gone ahead and put the news bytes that I'd had listed for June and July into archives, so there can be some archived news to start with.

    Adding June + July + August (thus far) + the two news bytes that are waiting for Sept. 1, there are a total so far of 12 news bytes.

    June was not Fanworks releated, though I guess I should add a note about CR #9 and Dan Wallace.

    July was one Fanworks and one not.

    The Sept. 1 ones are one Fanworks and one not.

    The August ones are 5 Fanworks related (6 counting Dragon*Con panel info) and 4 non-Fanworks (3 if not counting Dragon*Con).

    But . . .

    You'll find that only *one* of the Fanworks news bytes is something other than an announcement of a new release, as we'd do with anything. Meanwhile, there's an RON release news byte ready, the Dragon*Con panel news, the project launch news for Tatooine TV, and both teaser and trailer release notes for "Coruscant?"

    Minus casting calls, which get their own sidebar, we've been pretty good at already making sure to cover recent Fan Audio news, but, frankly, many of the releases have been from Fanworks projects, particularly CR and Anthology.

    How is it biased to announce all new releases, and simply be the group putting out the most new releases for a period of time? It's certainly not biased against TFN programs, as we include 2 news bytes on Digital Llama, and it's certainly not biased against non-Fanworks, non-TFN items, as RON, Tatooine TV, and Coruscant get news bytes.

    I also have to ask: Saying "nope" to having your non-Fanworks stuff with more Fanworks visibility, on the grounds that non-Fanworks stuff doesn't get *enough* visibility . . . Doesn't that seem a self-fulfilling prophecy to you?

    That's like the old conundrum in Indiana, where many Democrats don't show up to vote, since there's rarely enough who show up to vote to make a difference. The Democrat wanting to step out of that self-perpetuating cycle stands up, votes, and makes a mark in correcting the problem they've discovered, rather than perpetuating it.

    ------

    See what happens when credibility and bias issues are raised? Just wait for CR #11, presuming there's not an apology from a certain gent my way by Friday afternoon . . .

    (No, not you, Keith. Heh)
  16. keithabbott Force Ghost

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    Nathan, you certainly took my comments better than I expected, which is a good thing. And seeing how you were using many of those items as placeholders, then I presume you understand why I was thinking what I was thinking. Upon visually seeing it, it's different than knowing the actual plans.

    Considering what I know now, I'll get back to you on hosting tomorrow.

    I just wanted to briefly touch on a few of your comments before dinner. But before I go, there is the one other thing I wanted to touch on...and that is to respond to you about taking this whole thing so seriously.

    Yes, we have...I have. And it is a fan group project as much as the "marketing" stuff came to light yesterday. Michael can attest to that considering all the meetings he's been a part of. Throughout the last few years we've spent a lot more time talking/arguing about the project itself rather than the marketing of it. Every phase of this project has been taken very seriously because it's something we wanted to do "right" in every sense of the word.

    We've all very passionate about it..for the most part hehe. At least for the ones who have the most time invested in it like all of the folks on our editorial staff. The bickering is just part of our intensity. And I get even more intense about marketing because that's what I did for so long professionally. It's hard for me to not take it seriously because well..I'm overlly anal about it. In the end, we all just want to get as many fans to hear it as possible. For once it's over...well..it's over for most of us.

    For me, this is my last hoorah. I'm done once it's released other than posting and tidying up a few loose ends. I'm not really an actor so I won't be doing any of that unless it's in armor as a member of the 501st. And I'll never produce another thing like this again. I wish I could say why I was so intense with this project. Honestly, I've never done anything like this in my life..especially invest so much time and effort into a project like this. I've got a slew of music pieces that I've never even finished..and for some reason this thing got done. I dunno...but..well...I'm crazy. What can I say? :)

    Keith

  17. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Nathan, you certainly took my comments better than I expected, which is a good thing.

    Really? I thought I came off pretty biotchy. ::shrug:: Cool.

    And seeing how you were using many of those items as placeholders, then I presume you understand why I was thinking what I was thinking.

    Yeah. The idea of being too partial, toward any one project, is something I wanted to stray from. I mean, I've had a 2S site for years now, and Anthology and Context have had their own for months. They've had their "15 minutes." Time to get the word out about other stuff too.

    Considering what I know now, I'll get back to you on hosting tomorrow.

    Aye. Also, I lost Pam's address, but they said I can get tickets for Sunday on Sunday morning itself at the registration area, so I'm gonna do that. Barring a sellout, I *will* be there at DC 2003 for the panel.

    As for the taking it seriously thing, here's my advice: First, you don't give yourself enough credit, while at the same time seeming really . . . almost arrogant in the comments about numbers and such. You seem like you talk about all the intended downloads and stuff, yet you worry about staying power. Trust me. With the exposure it's gotten, and as much as fan audio fans will make sure it's out there, since it, like 2S and DLR, is a sort of milestone in fan audio, it'll stick around. The downloads will slack, but it'll stick around. You just have to sort of relax, step back, and let it happen. If you don't, you're stressing yourself out, but not really influencing more people to get into it. Especially as a last hurrah, I'd imagine it'd be much more satisfying to be able to look back and see it with a steady presence in the fan audio genre and see yourself in this time enjoying the work well done, rather than pulling your hair out.

    There's that line where fan projects cross to almost being jobs. Once you've done that in your line of thinking, you've sort of defeated the original passion that brought it about in the first place.

    Like I said, "it's just a fan project." Recognize that, love that, and others will as well, upon hearing it.

    And now for your moment of Zen. :)
  18. keithabbott Force Ghost

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    Oh but it was a job...I mean it is a job (it's still not over yet...sigh...but I will really really really really really be glad when it is. Did I say really?). *starts to pull more hair out*

    It didn't start out as serious as it became. The reason it ended up being more like a job was because we were losing people. We were losing interest and that was bad. I knew if we all didn't start to treat it like a business it would never get done. There was too much of an investment at that point, and well..it would have been a terrible feeling to see it all go to nothing. I learned stuff at work that kinda helped me model the project after common business practices. That's when things started to happen and people started to follow through on deadlines (sort of...late, but better than never).

    I can't say I regret the direction it took us because I know in the end after talking with our crew that everyone was pleased with the end result. We'll always have some complaints, even myself, but it will have gotten done and you're right. That's the most important thing to realize.

    I should relax though. I'm trying believe it not. But I'm also pushing myself to finish that 5.1 surround sound mix, despite the fact I dont wanna do it. On one hand I do...on the other I don't. I'm just a walking contradiction sometimes.

    As for taking credit, I think I do. I might not take as much as I deserve..I dunno, but I look back and see that I couldn't have done nearly all I did without the help of everyone else. It's all symantics I guess. I don't even begin to understand myself sometimes. Besides, I'm probably talking too much as it is. I've certainly strayed from the point of the thread. Anyhow, I'll get back to you tomorrow. I think this is probably a good place to stop yapping now. :)

    Keith
  19. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    mmmmmOkay.

    Just to let you know: If you want to see what a RON type page would be beforehand, I can mock one up.

    Wanna send me the real thing first?

    (Blast! I thought it was gonna work! heh heh heh)

    ;)
  20. cinemafreak Jedi Master

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    Keith, about the graphics, it could be that Nathan is far better at doing audio then graphics.

    Pages looking similar: they do. But is it different with TFN fanfilms? They have a page about the porject with links to the main site, where the filmmakers creativity is expressed.

    Nathan shameless plugging: as an advisor I'll make sure he doesn't do that. I can attest that he does worry about that sort of thing. And besides, pluggin can be done on my show, Requiem of the Outcast coming later this month. Everyone, send commercials.
  21. keithabbott Force Ghost

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    Nathan, actually if you could do a mock up and send me the link that would be great. I'll PM you Pam's email addy.

    Rich, graphically it wasn't the quality that concerned me. Now, in the back of my head I was already thinking he was probably just using a graphics template of some sort because it was easier. I can easily understand not wanting to invest too much time in someone else's project. But to a viewer like myself, seeing the similarity of images can be misleading as to whom created the works. That was more my issue. And Nathan has already addressed that, so I doubt that will be a problem with the final version of the site.

    As to similarity in pages, you're quite right that most all sites link to other parts of their own site. And I understand that the Timeline site uses templates as many sites do. I guess if it were my choice, I would have rather seen Resurrection and Smuggler's Run on their own pages originally...much like how starwarsfanworks.com is setup now...without the linking back to Nathan's own projects on the same page. I just didn't like how those pages were setup on Timeline. But I believe Nathan is heading in the right direction now with the new site.

    My original post was purely based on my concerns beginning with Timeline and stemming to the new site. I just wanted to make sure that the sites would be managed and setup differently, which it appears they will be now that Nathan has addressed my concerns.

    Either way, the site is looking very nice..and is easily navigatable. I'm actually surprised Nathan headed up this project when he did. For awhile, he thought this whole medium needed more time to grow. I'm curious Nathan...what changed your mind?

    Keith
  22. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    Rich: Yeah, I suck at graphics. I can do simple text ones, emphasis on simple, but the rest goes to you or Sonja. Sonja's the Queen of Fanworks Graphics. Me, I'm more like the Court Jester of Graphics-of-Any-Kind.

    Nathan, actually if you could do a mock up and send me the link that would be great. I'll PM you Pam's email addy.

    As for a mockup, I'll try to do one tonight. It looks like Fanworks is going to host "Coruscant?" so I'll be doing some editing the next day or so anyway.

    Thanks on the addy. I'll email her from home tonight.

    As to similarity in pages, you're quite right that most all sites link to other parts of their own site. And I understand that the Timeline site uses templates as many sites do.

    Ah, but not anymore. :) Check out the new timeline site that Sonja did up. The only stuff not revised (the audio stuff) is gonna be dumped since it's folding into Fanworks. Alas, my old standard design . . . shall be dead.

    Blast: Computer error. Must post and reboot...
  23. Nathan_P_Butler Author, Star Wars Tales #21

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    I guess if it were my choice, I would have rather seen Resurrection and Smuggler's Run on their own pages originally

    That's actually what part of the problem was. On their own, they hadn't gathered desired attention. Using Anthology as the launch pages for them was sort of the "hook" to get people there. Of course, it also helped keep the section managable, since it was all under what was supposed to be the Timeline project's "planet" at SWz.

    I'm actually surprised Nathan headed up this project when he did. For awhile, he thought this whole medium needed more time to grow. I'm curious Nathan...what changed your mind?

    It wasn't so much that my mind changed, really. I was against a separate board, since I think that at least at TFN, it's couonterproductive. It segregates Fan Audio from the traffic that the fan film forum gets. However, a site to promote the genre, well done, was something I'd always supported . . . it just didn't seem that anyone was going to do it. My biggest concern is over board communities. We've started up a Fan Audio board at GS specifically because I don't think that fan audio needs its own board system yet, and even then, it's only separated out over at GS because we needed to handle some mod control issues, politically. I still think we need to grow before we have our own board communities and own boards, but if they're there, hopefully Fanworks will help foster enough interest in the genre to make the boards worthwhile.
  24. cinemafreak Jedi Master

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    May 13, 2002
    star 4
    I think that we have one shot to make this a serious, not to be taken as a gimmick, genre. Thanks to these boards coming up, something had to be done. TFN said heres your shot, even though most thought it was too early. But I like the site, and I think its a good idea.
  25. LawgSkrak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 1999
    star 4
    You are talking like the page is up already, but I just got the teaser when I wnet there.
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