So NV Star Wars Galaxies: Why I haven't been playing

Tonight I logged on to SWG, and did a little bit, and then logged off. It was the first time I had played in weeks. Maybe more than a month. Some of you have been asking me why I haven't been on, and my reply had been that 'I just haven't gotten into it' lately. Now I know we are the TSS, and we are moving towards guild presence in the game, and that's fine... but I have been really trying to put my finger on why I haven't been able to really get into the game. I mean, heck, I love Star Wars! I have GM'd the RPG for years and years, read all the books, collect the comics, own the flicks, helped get the TSS and this board up and running, blah blah blah... so why am I not really really into playing Galaxies?

Well, as I pondered this, I came across something written by JD Wiker. JD helped write the core rules for the Star Wars RPG, and is a major Star Wars fan and RPGer, and as I found out, he gave Galaxies a try. He wrote about his experiences, and he really encapsulated how I think I feel.

So here is what he wrote, copied and pasted without his permission, I hope he doesn't mind, and I hope I don't get in trouble or anything

____________________________________________

Galaxies of Adventure

Shortly before I left for Gen Con Indy, my friend Wendy gave me a copy of Star Wars Galaxies as a gift. I'd been saying that I wanted to try it out, and that if one of my MMORPGing friends got me a copy, I'd hook up with them and play from time to time. But I was on deadline when I got it, and once you activate, your free month begins, so I didn't want to waste the weeks I would be unable to play. When I got back from Gen Con, though, and got settled in, I installed the game, logged on, and took my first step into the wondrous world of Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games!


Man, was I disappointed.

I had a lot of fun, the first few times, just wandering around the city of Dearic on Talus (which is a planet in the Corellian system, for those of you who don't know). I'd hooked up with my pal Marc, who was showing me the ropes of MMORPGs, and just marveling at the care and attention put into the graphics. And there are some beautiful graphics. I laughed out loud with delight when I looked up toward a planet hanging in the sky and realized that the odd sort of spherical shape in front of it was Centerpoint Station (which appears in the Corellian trilogy of Star Wars novels?a nice detail).

In the next month, I visited Corellia and Tatooine, and built up my character. I heard rumors about an old hermit on Tatooine (no, not Ben Kenobi; the game takes place a few years after his death) who could guide you to being a Jedi, and man, that's what I wanted. I mean, who doesn't? This is Star Wars, after all! Well, yeah, and the designers of the game took that into account, and made it difficult to pursue the goal of being a Jedi. After all, if becoming a Jedi was easy, the galaxy would be full of Jedi Knights?and that wouldn't be very realistic. (As a matter of fact, as of this writing, I still haven't heard of anyone who's "cracked the code" and become a Jedi.)

This issue sort of lies at the heart of my disappointment. Okay, so I can't have a Jedi character from the get-go. I can live with that. So my next favorite character would be a pilot?a smuggler in the tradition of Han Solo. Well, can't do that, either; the "being able to fly starships" aspect of Star Wars Galaxies hasn't been implemented yet. Oh. Well, then, maybe I could practice with landspeeder and airspeeders. Hey, wait a second. There aren't any. Anywhere. Some showed up, a few weeks after I made this observation to my fellow players, but they're just scenery. You can kill everything around them, but try to hop in and go for a spin, and you might as well be trying to hotwire a fallen log. Huh. So, then, what about animals? Can I ride a taun-taun? How about a bantha? Nope, can't do that, either?though they're all over the place, following other players around as pets.

Pets. You can pull a rancor out of your a-- like some kind of Jedi magician?be

 

WHERE did you find the book? I looked 2 days ago and I didn't see it!

 

I am glad now, that we did not get galaxies, if all these things are true.

I would be horribly dissapointed if I could not be a jedi, or fly the Millenium Falcon.

 

Look what you did Talon, Pay no attention to him.

You can be a Jedi and you will be able to fly the Falcon! This game is awesome. Why this week I found a Jedi Holocron, saw Nightsisters on Dathomir and I'm doing the second chapter in the Cries of Alderaan storyline.

Ekul, thanks again for your help last night, lets make sure the rebels dont when this chapter or they will have access to Project Dead Eye and then the galaxy wont be safe for anyone.

 

Thats why I generally get bored with these types of games. Nothing you do has any impact on the game world. I know that if I go and destroy a magic crystal that is going to be used to destroy the planet, in an hour, it will respawn so someone else could do the quest. So you are all no name scrubs in the universe. who wants to go and spend$15 a month to be a moisture farmer? Star Wars is just not a good universe to have an online game. To0 few people have the diversity people are looking for. Its why I don't play the pen and paper game anymore. You have two classes, jedi and non-jedi. Jedi are infinitely better. so you have jedi and crap. Star Wars is a great universe for movies, toys, 1-player video games, books, and so on, but not multiplayer. just my two cents.

 

yes, well, my character in the pen and paper game was non-jedi, and I just followed the jedi-types around on all their exciting quests.

 

I got the book at Barnes and Noble on Stephanie.


And don't get me wrong, the game is very, very good for what it is. It's amazing to actually be in the SW universe, walk around, and do stuff. It's kinda like you're in the movies.

However... at the moment, I am not finding the game a whole lotta fun. For much of the same reasons that JD said in his piece that he wrote. Perhaps once speeders and animals are available, and starships... and especiallly when there are a few jedi running around, the game might recapture my attention.

And it is possible to become a jedi, don't get me wrong, or misunderstand JD. It is just very very difficult. So difficult, in fact, that the path to become one is largely still a mystery. We expect to see the first of them within 2 weeks, according to the devs who are tracking the progress of players on this 'mystery' path. Once we see one, I think that will add an air of excitement back to the game. At the moment, things are just kinda.... boring to me.


And Acthar, something I have realized is that Jedi are not super powered in pen and paper RPG's. They can do some amazing things, yes, but they are still very, very mortal, and very, very killable, if you know what you're doing. Which means, if your character is aware that someone has the force, and is aware of what the force can do and has a basic understanding of how it works, then there is usually something that can be done to help combat force effects, and lightsaber effects. As a GM, I realize this now. But, you're right in a sense: just because I the GM know that, and can imagine many ways to compensate for not having the force, that doesn't mean that players know that, or how to do that. In my current game, I am striving for balance between the force sensitive characters and the non-force sensitive characters, and so far, things seem to be pretty good.

You're right in another sense too, Acthar. Even in the movies, put one jedi up against a few stormtroopers, no problem. Put him up against a destroyer droid, that jedi has a problem. And imagine him against a couple of Han Solos or a couple of Jango's.... You get the idea. In my mind, Jedi are not all powerful or invincible. If you are level 3 and you meet a level 11 anything (doesn't have to be a jedi) you will have your butt served to you in a fight. Usually. But keep the levels kinda the same and it starts to even out the playing field.


And if any of my RPG players are reading this, and you think something is unbalanced in my game, all ya gotta do is talk to me about it. If you don't speak up, I will never know.

 

Jaded, that had little to do with balance between force users and non force users, IMO.

One factor that comes to mind is your work and real life schedule was so heavy, that you missed the game many, many times. There is nothing you can do about that, it's not your fault. You made the right choice in acting responsibly and getting sleep, etc. But the game tends to focus on those that are there consistently, and are active players.

 

.

 

Hmmm... much anger do I sense in this one...

I haven't been to the game in a while, seeing as I live 5 hours away, so I don't know what the games are like now. But even when we were back in the Borders on firday afternoon times it seemed that the Jedi character (Gerson) always got the most attention. There is a good reason for it: everyone else will never become anything. Jedis get to climb the ranks from a lowly nothing scrub to a Jedi Master where they are the most fear and reviled creatures in the universe. Everyone else starts off as a lowly scrub and ascends the ranks to become a lowly scrub who is very good at his profession. Pilots don't make good central characters, the most they can hope for is a good chase or a harrowing dive into a perilous asteroid field. Smugglers can at best hope to be able to cart around a jedi or smuggle a nice payload resulting in a good chase or perilous dive into an asteroid field. Soldiers can at best become great soldiers, capable of killing loads of things. Diplomats can at best be diplomats and argue a lot (wee!). Thats basicly it for the characters and what they can aspire to become. The only character that gets any diversity or any reason to grow is a jedi.
My main qualm with the Star Wars universe (and I've said it beofre) is the lack of character diversity. Other than starting skills, every character is the same. the exact same. they can get the same feats (except specialized class feats, which are almost always terrible), can get skills from otehr classes to close the gap further, and generally everyone does everything. If you pilot gets knocked out, you have the smuggler fly, if he gets knocked out too then send in the soldier. I just think its a terrible system. blech.

 

Well, Toku, in your post, you accuse me of ineffective GMing, playing favorites, penalizing players with no play time, badly neglecting Jaded, and discriminating against her.

That's a lot for me to think about.

First and foremost, I would like to publicly apologize to Jaded and you. Nothing I ever did was with the intent of punishing or neglecting either of you. I have never meant either of you ill will, and I am glad that you have been in games with me. You both are good people, and I absolutely would not want a role playing game to harm our friendship in any way. So, I really am sorry that you guys ended up feeling the way you did, I would never want that. The RPG is just a game, but our friendship is real.

Beyond that, I really will have to think about all that you said. I have been GMing a long time, and have never claimed to be perfect. If anything, I have actively sought out other Star Wars RPG groups in town to try to learn to be a better GM. At one point, I was driving almost to Summerlin on a weekly basis to be a player under another Star Wars GM I found on the internet. I know my GMing has a lot to be desired, which is why I always ask my players to talk with me and give me feedback, so I can try to shape the game experience to be fun for the players. My satisfaction as a GM comes from knowing that my players have had a good time because of my GMing. If you or Jaded tried to tell me your feelings earlier, I must have been somewhere else mentally, as I don't recall it, so I apologize for not hearing you.

I hope neither of you keep any hard feelings towards me, I certainly have none against either of you. I will also be seriously considering the things you have said. If you have felt this way, I can't help but think that perhaps others have as well. I don't want that. I don't want that at all. The game is just not worth it to have that happen. I might take a break from GMing, and hopefully, by the next time I do GM, I will be able to solve some of these problems and be a better GM, which is something I am constantly seeking.

Thank you for your time and your candor.

Talon Wolfe

 

I have been going to Talon's game for quite a while now and I have also been a GM before. I really havent noticed an issue with Talon's GMing. (I know I fit into the aforementioned favorites category in your theory Toku and you may dismiss my arguments out of hand). What I have noticed, and this is true whether your GMing or just a player, is that it takes both GM and player to tell a story and to have your character be a large part of that story.

There have been times when I have done nothing for weeks becuase something else was going on. If it became too boring I would remind Talon about certain goals I wanted for my character and even ideas that might happen to my character. Some may get implemented, others may not. But the point remains if you dont tell Talon what your character is doing, what you want to do, what you might do, and what youd like to do then yes, your character will fall to the side. Its just as much the players responsibility as it is the GMs.

I was discussing this very thing with Protoss becuase he felt somewhat left out and didnt know what to do. I gave him some feedback and some character ideas which he in turn spoke to Talon about.

From what I witness at the table I find characters that get left to the side are not discussing thier characters with the GM and are not as involved as they could be. It's my opinion that the remarks against Talon are completely unfounded.

(PS I hope to see both Protoss and Jaded back at the game again.)

 

I have to agree with Axia's last post!

First, The things that were said about Talon's GMing were WAY out of hand and are things that need to be brought to his attention PERSONALLY and not on a PUBLIC board like this.

Also Toku let me ask both you and Jaded something-

Did either one of you ever come to Talon with these concerns about his GMing and talk to him about the way you felt?

From the sounds of it I done think you have (and I apologize if you have) and the last place these things needs to be brought up for the FIRST time is on a public board. I believe that while there are times that players sit in the back burner for a while, watching other players get all the attention you cant expect every player to get all the attention every week. There is a story to be told and there are times that you need to sit and listen than play. I agree with Axia about talking to your GM about your character and things that you want to do while you are not getting the attention you want.

 

.

 

BTW, if you're looking for an excellent RPG to play--try Knights of the Old Republic. Yes, it's a video game so you can't hang out with your friends--which is what makes the regular RPG fun, but it's set up very, very well.

It is based on the rules of the D20 RPG and I think they do an excellent job of showing how the balance of power is supposed to work. As a soldier or a scout, it is possible to kill Jedi of a similar level. Jedi are certainally NOT all powerful. As a level 7 jedi (level 8 scout), there are still a lot of things that can kill me.

The game is extremely dynamic. You could probably play it at least 3 different times and have a different experience each time. It also provides a LOT of game time. I've allready played about 25 hours (game hours, not real hours) and am probably only two-thirds of the way through.

After playing this game, I understand what the makers of the RPG were trying for when they invented the rules. The RPG isn't truly unbalanced, it's just most don't understand how power is supposed to be balanced. For example, there are a lot of devices in this game (and I assume in the pen and pencil world in some book or another) that counter many force powers. This allows an average scout to stand up to an average Jedi (of similar level) without simply disintigrating on contact.

 

Toku and Jaded:

I love you guys and I have missed you. You hold a special place in my heart because you gave me the joyful opportunity of perfoming you wedding ceremony, and I thank you for that. But I am very offended at the way this situation has played out in the massive public of cyberspace.

Look, here's the deal.
There are a lot of people to account for in the game and a lot of people to play out any kind of scenarios. There have been weeks where I did no playing, I just sat and listened and laughed and had fun with the people who were there who were not currently playing out any storyline. That to me is what the game is all about. In fact my last character took four weeks to be introduced into the main game as well, and I took it as just being a part of the game.

Toku I am deeply hurt on behalf of Talon. This public forum is no place to be bringing up any kind of frustrations that you have been letting seeth inside of you for this long. If what you say is true, then you have been allowing this anger and frustration to build up for well over a year, and possibly for several years, and you chose this public space to voice the anger you have felt. Matthew 18:15 says, "If your brother has offended you, go to him privately and tell him."

Look, Talon is my friend. I know, without even talking to him, that he was very hurt by the comments that were made. I am not saying that the way you feel is wrong; in fact I'm sure that for you everything was very true. But the way you handled this situation was not right, and I believe that you should apologize to him for publicly for publicly embarrassing and lambasting him.

Steve

 

I am going to say this very carefully and make sure I'm not just venting my own anger about what was said in what I feel was a very backstabbing manner.

1 -"First off, I don't play in that game--therefore I have no reason to go to the GM with any issues."

The points you brought up had nothing to do with the game at all, they were personal opinions about a single person and how they GM. It is obvious that there was a lot of stuff held from many years ago contained in that post.

2 - "Secondly, I didn't say that Talon was a BAD GM"
"it is a result of ineffective GMing"
"However, you play favorites"
"got penalized for an entire month"
"she's been so badly neglected"
"I hope if she does she won't be discriminated against yet agin"
"Secondly, I didn't say that Talon was a BAD GM"

Did I miss the entire gist of your post because those accusations seem that you're implying that Vic is a bad GM?

3 - "And no offence to Talon as this isn't directly his fault, but she HAS been discriminated against. Remember the result of when she first asked if she could play? "

For anybody that doesn't know what this is referencing, the first RPG group consisted of Vic as GM and 5-6 male players that met weekly. Steph wanted to join the game and the group met to decide whether or not we wanted any females in our group. Discriminating? Yes, just like the men's bathroom is discriminating. Most of us guys did not want to add a girl to the game, especially one of the guys' girlfriends. Vic was the only one vocal about letting her play and actually convinced Jeremy and I (the biggest opposers to females joining) to give her a chance.

4 - "The game has been going on since June 22, 2002. This means that she showed up consistantly for 11 months. And her character is only level 2, while most of the others are level 4 or close to level 4 (at the time she stopped coming). Now, I understand with a large group, not everyone gets a whole lot of playing time in every week, but if you have a character that is that far beind the rest of the group, that's an indication that the character needs more to do in game."

This is just false, and you have no way of spouting statistics about a game that you're not involved in. My character was created Nov 30, 2002, roughly 11 months ago. And this last game I finally got up to level 3. There is 1 person that is level 4 and I'm 99% sure he is the only active player with their original character from June 2002.

5 - "but there was one character who got 90% of the "Private roll-playing" and whom the plotline was based on"

That is me that you're talking about I assume. And yes there was private role playing between us more than others, but only because we had the opportunity on a long trip to L.A. together and I called him almost daily to discuss my character and the progression of the game and even the shaping of the rules before the d20 version came out. I was probably the pioneer of private role playing in our group, but it quickly spread to everyone and everyone had the same opportunity to discuss any character issues with Vic.

If you look back on all of the weekly recap threads from our game, you can see that those that consistently contribute on a near daily basis are able to shape the game. I know for me that comes from a strong desire to play the game and shape the story, but I am far from the number one poster on those threads. The game progresses faster for those that put forth that type of effort.

Basically it all boils down to this, you offended more people than you know and hurt a whole table of players unnecessarily with issues that needed to be addressed privately a long time ago.

 

.

 

Hi everyone! Acthar told me there was an interesting thread, and boy-howdy, it's interesting!

A large part of the problem is with the Star Wars RPG itself. Acthar and I started working through the core rulebook to start our own So Cal campaign, but we found the system severely lacking.

Acthar's major critique is about how I felt about the system--everyone is more or less the same except for Jedi, who are the supreme gods of the universe. And frankly, no one watches Star Wars and says, "golly, I'd sure love to be a Wookie just like Chewie!" No, you will always get a room full of Luke Skywalkers and Han Solos, with the occasional Boba Fett freak (did Jonny Flamehead just walk into the room? ).

Another severe deficiency with the Star Wars RPG is this: all of the games pretty much need to revolve around the jedi. Let's say a party has a smuggler, two bounty hunters, and a jedi. They can't go on smuggling missions because jedi are lawful good, and don't do smuggling. They can't go looking for bounties, because that is unlawful behavior. The only things they can do are fight for the rebellion or do jedi stuff. In D&D terms (D&D is a far superior game, by the way, guys--you should give it a shot, it's very fun ), it's like having a party of 2 rouges, a fighter, and a paladin--it just doesn't mix.

As far as your guys' specific games go, a big hunk of the problem is that there are too many players. Once you go beyond 5 or 6 player characters, the game gets unmanageable. No wonder people are feeling left out--as many players as you guys have, its a wonder anyone gets to do anything!

From the very little I've played with Talon as a GM, I haven't found him to be a bad GM (though he is something of a rule nazi ). He's pretty creative on the spot, and comes up with some strange and interesting scenarios. I think if you guys just broke up into smaller groups, you might all enjoy yourselves a little more.

Holy crap, guys, after 11 months of weekly playing you're only level 3?

 

Ok well, here are my 2 cents worth....

I am aware most of you have no idea who the heck I am, because I never come to the games at all anymore. I'm Axia's wife and we have a baby daugher whom we felt was disturbing to the other players and disruptive of everyone having an enjoyable evening. So, since SW is MUCHO important to Axia, I elected to stay home. I have missed alot and I have missed you all.

That said, I have spent time with Talon on a friend level (I am proud to call him a friend) and on a GM level. I have never found fault with him in either capacity.

BUT, I can tell you my experience with the RPG over the last months has been thru these forums and feed back I get when Axia comes home. There has been MANY a night he came home telling me he felt like he didn't get to play as much as he wanted. Granted, there could never be enough hours in the day for him to live in the SW universe, but he felt like his character could have done more. THIS HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH TALON OR HIS GM'ing. This had everything to do with the fact that there were more players than time allowed to get to everyone or for everyone to have enough time to play. I can personally attest to this from my time in the game "way back when" there had to be up to 3 separate groups just so everyone got to play! (When I was in the RPG I was in the same group as Jaded, and tho I like her very much, she never spoke unless spoken to as far as her character went.)

I can tell you also, that on the days when Axia felt like he didn't get enough game play in, he contacted Talon in an email or IM or PM during the week to expand on his character. EVERYONE was also free to do so. I myself did that on more than one occasion for the same reason. There was simply not enough time. And again, not Talon's fault.

I think that Talon, and everyone involved in making this RPG last so long, should be commended for doing their level best, not bashed in a public forum. NOT COOL. Bad form. If Jaded had an issue with Talon's GM style, it should have been handeled between HER AND HIM in a PRIVATE manner.

And I agree, even tho I have not known Talon for as long as some of you, I know he has taken this to heart and it has hurt him deeply. ***Hugs to Talon*** from me.

Ok that's my contribution to the discussion. Not meant to cause more trouble, just one lonely RPG'rs opinion.

 

Alright wow, first of all I'm confused as to how a topic about the reason why a person hasn't been playing Galaxies turned into a let's vent our anger and other emotions on the GM publicly. Let's all start acting our ages.

Second of all the SW RPG is the highlight of my Saturday. With school and stuff I don't have much free time but what free time I do have on Saturday nights is spent around a table full of some great, awesome and rather unique individuals.And that is what made me not mind the what I believe was 2 months that I waited for my character to be introduced. Or something really close to that....but ya know what it's all about storyline and the GM can't just magically place a new character into the midst of something big that's going on like the Empire having a planet wide lockdown on Naboo saying no ships can leave. There's just certain things that have to happen in a game and it's the GM's responsibility in my opinion to make sure those things get done....however it's the characters job to get the story moving. The GM can only move the story along as fast as the people he's GMing will let the story move along.

But anywho....I think we have a great GM and he's good at what he's doing. Keep up the good work GM.

Jillum

 

Lay off Toku, guys, he does have a good point. Story lines are important, but gameplay always has to come first. I mean, the GM could jsut read y'all a book, but what fun would that be?

Also, it is the GM's responsability to incorporate all of the players into the game in some meaningful way. Having run games with shy players, I know firsthand how difficult this can be. But if you don't, you wind up having some people feeling upset, which brings ya to the current situation. And in such a large game . . . well, I would never take on a game that big at least

Rather than everyone getting all huffy and upset, why not just take this as a learning experience and move on? Talon is a really good GM, but he's no more perfect that I was/am. You just take your past failures, learn from em, and become better. That's what makes us better than the monkeys

 

I believe that this thread needs to be laid to rest.

Those involved have worked it out and the situation has diffused, so there doesn't need to be anymore posting at all.

Anything else that would be said would either be a slam on Toku or Talon. There is no point in venting on this thread about any one or anything that has been mentioned, as that would just be restirring a pot that has settled.

If anyone else has a problem with anything that has been said they too need to go to the person individually to resolve it.

All of us have been friends for a long time and this just needs to end now, that those friendships might be spared.

 

Dang that was something along the lines of what I was going to say..

But i do have one thing to say.... Talon, It sounds like there are a lot of people that are supporting you and enjoy your games. I would hate to see the feelings of a few effect the rest of the game. You are a great GM and though I am not a part of your game I hope it all continues well, I enjoy reading about the game, and I know they enjoy hanging out on sat nights...