Star Wars Influences - A New Fan's Experience

Hey there fellow Force-freaks! I guess by now you know who I am. Some of you are very kindly following my exploits as a new Star Wars fan and helping me along with your expertise, *colorful* opinions and general fan knowledge.

After reading Dune (anyone know which is the 2nd book in that series?) I've decided to check out as many of George's influences as possible. This project will take years, I know that, but I have actually begun it. There are no bounderies: books, music, movies, history, absoultely *anything* is grist for the mill so feel free to list anything you that has influenced Star Wars or has parallels with the Saga.

Seven Samurai: Okay, I did take some college courses and I do enjoy reading when I get the chance but I can't say that I come from a background where I would ever think to go out of my way to see a really old movie or an undubbed movie from another country - until now that is! I rented Seven Samurai and WOW what a wonderful movie! I loved every last minute of this film - it's the best martial arts movie I have ever seen. I watched it with my girlfriend, expecting to look at it in short sections over s few nights, but we sat through the *whole* thing on a week-night (didn't get to bed till 2:00 am) and were both moved to tears by the ending! The plot, characters, action, scenery and filmmaking were all top-notch. I can definately see the influence on Star Wars - the really crazy Samurai who they couldn't accept at first reminded me of Han; the hopeful kid learning the ropes reminded me of Luke; the wonderful old Samurai who acted as their leader *really* reminded me of Qui-Gon Jinn. So: can anyone recommend other films by this director and possibly a good short book about his films? Also, can anyone find a quote where Lucas mentions this filmmaker or Seven Samurai?

The Searchers: I've never seen an old western before but this made me want to see a bunch more. What a powerful film! I can *definately* see how Clones was influenced by this movie - and also the part in Hope when Luke comes back to find Owen & Beru dead. Is there another film by this director (James Ford?) which influenced Star Wars?

+ What strikes me isn't that Lucas took from these other films it is *how* he used them in his own work. He made these elements his own - even after seeing these two films they're not what I see when I watch Star Wars - all I see is what's on the screen. Kinda like a footnote in a book - it fills in information but you kinda just file it and focus on the story again after you've read it.

Anyway I've bought an anthology of Greek tragedies and a collection of Shakespeare's plays. I've decided to start with Shakespeare cause honestly I've been meaning to read these plays for about five years I just haven't had the motivation! So it's 50% a Star Wars thing & 50% for me. Actually the Riverside Shakespeare was *given* to me a few years ago - anyone have a play they would suggest starting on? I'm thinking Hamlet (a really great movie with Mel Gibson too) cause Anakin kinda reminds me of him.

Anyway, that's enough from me now. I'm looking forward to reading your own observations and comments.

 

I agree, Seven Samurai is a terrific film. I've only been able to see it once, and that was several years ago, but I really enjoyed it. Great seeing Mifune playing against type from the more stern-faced samurai he tended to play elsewhere, too.

Lucas has also given credit to another Kurasowa film, "The Hidden Fortress", for the both the idea of showing a lot of ANH from the robot's point of view (in THF, it's from two lowly servant's point of view) and the whole idea about a princess and a hidden base. In fact, Motti's nearly able to get out the fabled line about "the location of the Rebel's hidden fackcoughchoke..."

 

DamonD

Yo, thanks for the heads-up. I watched "Hidden Fortress" tonite (just finished it) and am very juiced. Korosawa rocks!! Yeah, I can definately see the influence on Star Wars, esp. Menace & Hope. The noble retainer masquerading as a peasant: that's Qui-Gon in Meance! And the enemy general letting them go is like Vader betraying the Emperor in jedi. Is that the same actor who played the crazy smaurai in 7-Samurai? I'm also really getting to the whole japanese samurai thing. I bought Shogun today along with Dune Messiah & Children Of Dune. Can't wait for the weekend!

 

can anyone recommend other films by this director

Rashomon,Throne of Blood,Ran,Red Beard,High and Low,Ikiru,Yojimbo,Sanjuro

possibly a good short book about his films?

The Films of Akira Kurosawa by Donald Richie

Is that the same actor who played the crazy smaurai in 7-Samurai?

Yes,thats Toshiro Mifune Japans greatest actor.You'll find him starring in lots of Kurosawa movies(and movies in general).Kurosawa liked to use the same actors over and over again in his movies so you'll see the same people showing up in all of his movies.

Also, can anyone find a quote where Lucas mentions this filmmaker or Seven Samurai?

GL has a segment on the Hidden Fortress DVD talking about Kurosawa.

I bought Shogun today

Toshiro Mifune is also in this as well.

 

(MOD:sorry for back to back post,I ran out of time to edit)
Anyway I've bought an anthology of Greek tragedies and a collection of Shakespeare's plays. I've decided to start with Shakespeare cause honestly I've been meaning to read these plays for about five years I just haven't had the motivation! So it's 50% a Star Wars thing & 50% for me. Actually the Riverside Shakespeare was *given* to me a few years ago - anyone have a play they would suggest starting on? I'm thinking Hamlet (a really great movie with Mel Gibson too) cause Anakin kinda reminds me of him.

Since your doing the Shakespeare thing and are interested in Kurosawa's movies I would suggest getting Throne of Blood and Ran.

Throne of Blood is the best adaptation of Shakespeare(Macbeth) ever.Isuzu Yamada plays the best Lady Macbeth you will ever see.

Ran is a retelling of King Lear and is the second best movie of all time dealing with Shakespeare(behind Throne of Blood of course).

The Searchers: I've never seen an old western before but this made me want to see a bunch more.

What do you consider old(from what years)?

 

John Ford directed the Searchers....you caught the Beru/Owen death. How about when John Wayne is overlooking the Indian camp, almost exact copy when Anakin overlooks the Tusken Camp.

Ford, I think, also directed StageCoach. It a black/white western. Watch close and you'll spot the influence for the Luke/Leia "don't go" scene on Endor in ROTJ.

I recently watched Battle of Britian. Some of the dogfights really reminded me of the attack on DS1. I'm sure that could be said about many war moives though. However, it even had a "cut the chatter" type line.

 

Ford, I think, also directed StageCoach

He did.

 

The music of Star Wars was heavily influenced by the music of Richard Wagner. Not only is the music grand and heroic, but almost every major character has their own 'theme'. When Vader comes on the scene, his music plays, kind of like in a Wagnerian opera. The story I have read is that Lucas had Wagner's music in mind when he approached John Williams to do the music for Star Wars, and suggested to Williams that he look to those works for inspiration.

If you want an awesome Wagner music collection, check out the CD 'Wagner Without Words' by George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. It is awesome!

 

Hidden Fortress (movie)
Hero with a thousand faces (book)
Mythology
Flash Gordon (TV show,comics)
Classic Science Fiction (Dune)

Oh and Dune Messiah is the next book in the series if i am correct.

I think it goes
Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune

-Seldon

 

Throne of Blood is definitely a great film too. It helps that I really enjoy the original Macbeth too, but it's a worthy adaptation in its own right. Poor Mifune has a great death scene in that one too.

 

I think my favorite Kurosawa film is Sanjuro. Its another "masterless samurai" movie where the hero is very apt. It has alot of humor in it as well.

However, if anyone has an attention span out there, I would highly recommend one of the following later films in his career.

Dreams: excellent series of dreams Akira Kurosawa really had! With effects by ILM and some great music (sparsely scored). I think George Lucas produced this.

Madadayo! (means "not yet!"): A story about a retired teacher's birthday parties, his ex students, his wife and his cat. Its very moving, especially his love for his cat.

Again, you need to have a place in your heart for slow movies to love these as much as I do. They are very meditative. Good for a rainy day when you are alone and in a contemplative mood. But when they're over, you feel like they were packed full of information and ideas, morality messages and other rich metaphors.

 

Per your request:

1. Dune
2. Dune Messiah
3. Children of Dune
4. God Emperor of Dune
5. Heretics of Dune
6. Chapterhouse: Dune

 

Hey Padawan_1, welcome to the SW Universe.

Sometime, try reading Joseph Campbell's:

THE HERO WITH ONE THOUSAND FACES

Lucas is said to have read this book when coming up with the pan-religious themes of the force and Jedi, as well as the fall and redemption of the hero.
Campbell investigates countless real-world cultures and their myths to arrive at a singular theme of the Hero and the journey, central to almost all Faiths from Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc to 'primitive' cultures of south america and africa.
You can see where Lucas gets his brilliant ideas from.

 

I would also suggest the reading of Sophocles's "Oedipus" (in relationship with the theme of the fatality of destiny) and "Antigone" (in relation to choices and their consequences; custom and tradition; gods and religion, and betrayal).

The pivotal themes of Sophocle's tragedies are dealing with the pain and suffering caused when an individual, obstinately defying the dictates of divine will or temporal authority, or refusing to yield to destiny and circumstance, instead obeys some inner compulsion that leads to agonizing revelation and, ultimately, to a mysterious vindication of that person's behavior and life. From hybris (arrogance) to ate (mad violence) and then to nemesis (vengeance).
Redemption is always possible, but must be achieved internally, and often with incredible suffering, or trough death.

This is definitely what Star Wars is all about.

I think I've already posted what follows, it's from an essai I wrote some time ago. often "repetita juvant"

Edipus = fatally inevitable, hopeless, destiny that takes over, a man who is a victim of his destiny, of a fatal fate.

When oedipus was born, an oracle told his father that once adult, he would kill his father. So the father had him took to another country and left there.
He was found by a couple of paesants and raised as their son untill the day another oracle told Edipus that he should avoid the lands of his ancestors since otherwise he would cause the death of his father and would marry his own mother. (Edipus' mothers' name is Jocasta )
He goes back to his land and once got there he killed his father and married his mother and had four children : two daughters and two sons, fulfilling the prophecy. Discovered the thruth, Jocasta kills herself and Edipus blinds himself.

Can't you see the common points? Both E and A have a prophecy pending on them, and whatever they do they won't be able to avoid their fate. they know the prophecy, they know what's in store for them but they rush into it anyway.

Again a story of ignorance, of lie : Anakin doesn't know, Edipus doesn't know. But their destinies will catch them up inevitabliy.
There lies the tragedy, the ubris, their thinking that they can be bigger than the gods, better than the gods who already have decided their fate will lose them.

And there's this amazing similarity between E and his father and Luke/Vader : both fathers knew their sons would be a threat to them, both children have been alienated to different lands - raised by people they didn't suspect were not their parents - in order to avoid the fulfillment of the prophecy. Both children will come back and kill their fathers.

It's really a story of not being able to avoid one's destiny.

And this attachlment to the female figures....
E marries his mother but Anakin marries the only woman whom he loved as much as his mother, and both E and A kind of kill those women : Jocasta kills herself once she discovers Edipus is her son and no spoilers please[/i]

Sorry if i've been boring

 

Oedipus is definately one of my favorites. You can't help but notice the similarities in our two Tragic Heros.

I actually reread it recently for possible insights into EpIII.



p.s. Watch the EpIII spoilers in your post.

 

no problem, sorry for the spoilers, but they are due to the argumentation as a logic consequence.

 

Just rewatched Frankenstein (1931)

1. Yoda's wardrobe, posture and cane might have been inspired by Fritz (Igor).

2. Mrs. Frankenstein's wedding dress/head piece looked similar to Padme's. They both married someone who created a monster......hmmmmmmmm

 

Padawan 1, you asked for recommendations for other films by the director of THE SEVEN SAMURAI.

That director, AKIRA KUROSAWA, is one of the great directors of the 20th century and his artistic and storytelling influences span the world and many generations of film directors.

I suggest you read up on him by doing some internet research. I am going to recommend my favorite film by him, and I suggest you see it sometime, and that you research it before you watch it.

That film is RASHOMON, which is the first film of Kurosawa that received world-wide attention and brought him a great deal of acclaim and recognition in Europe and the United States.

It is considered one of the definitive films regarding the subjective nature of truth, how people lie to protect themselves and how 4 people can look at exactly the same event and see that event differently. With only 3 very in-expensive locations and a small cast, this film is technically brilliant (for it's time, the late 40s/early 50s), quite entertaining, and deals with human nature. It's in black and white, but well photographed. Keep in mind, the Kabuki style of acting is used, so it seems exaggerated to Western eyes, but it's effective once you get used to it.

I've seen quite a few hundred million dollar Hollywood spectaculars that don't have 1/100th of the entertainment and artistic value of this modest Japanese film from a master of the medium.

Incidentally, RASHOMON's structure was used as a lynchpin for the story of the Meg Ryan film, COURAGE UNDER FIRE.

You'll understand even more why Lucas has so much respect for Kurosawa after you see RASHOMON.

 

Hey I'm back.

Dune Messiah: Not only an outstanding novel but also the unsung source for AOTC. It's all here: clones (gholas), the young messianic hero turning into an intergalactic tyrant (Pau's jihad) the various powerful industrial and financial conglomerates banding together to undermine the present government, forbidden love (Alia & Duncan's ghola) and on and on...

What's interesting is that every attempt to film Dune has failed. The 80's picture, while it has some nice set designs and casting choices, is *awful*, the tv miniseries is better but hardly worth watching when you cd. be reading the book instead & the sequel is just dreadful. Yet Lucas has managed to take all of the important elements & reshape them into something that works as a movie.

Hamlet: I thoroughly enjoyed reading this play. I think I found a *few* influences on Star Wars. Hamlet Sr.'s ghost (Force ghosts), Ophelia going mad after her father's death like Annie loses it after Shmi's death, Claudius can be seen as a Palpatine figure, out in front as a statesman and leader but secertly pulling all the strings of evil, the backdrop of big politics and wars against a foreground of family tragedy and the supernatural. Of course you cd. go deeper but I only read it once Has anyone ever written a book about Shakespeare & Star Wars? That wd. be cool!

Kurosawa: I haven't seen any more of his films but I did rent the Samurai Trilogy (Musashi) with Mifune: very very cool!!!

Haven't read any Greek stuff yet but I saw Troy - anyone know how accurate that film is to the original saga? Just wondering. The movie was pretty good especially the action/battle stuff.

 

check out the director's cut DVD of Lawrence of Arabia by David Lean. Notice the opening scene on the motorcycle. Looks a little like the speeder bike chase in ROTJ.

Lean influenced many young filmmakers with his string of masterpieces. And who did Lean have in 3 of his biggest films? Alec Guiness, the original Obi-Wan. He was the perfect choice and Lucas knew of him because of David Lean.

 

I'd put Troy at about 70% accurate. The orginal all revolves around the influence of the gods. The movie doesn't acknowledge their existence.