Discussion in 'Literature' started by DarthJenari, Oct 12, 2012.
Nice, Obi-Wan's one of the few Jedi that I actually like.
Finally, I always wondered what happened to Obi-Wan during those Dark times.
I don't understand why he/she would need to offer contrary opinions to defend the fact that he doesn't enjoy JJM's work?
You never offered your opinions in this thread about why you love his work.
People should be able to post their views without getting their opinion turned into a joke about not liking bacon that everyone piles onto.
As for Kenobi by JJM, I'm looking forward to it - but I'm not the biggest fan of JJM's writing either. I could never get into the KotOR comic(maybe due to the timeframe involved) and Knight Errant read more like an Essential Guide than a novel. I found it mediocre at best.
I'm hoping for better things in Kenobi.
If someone came into the Diversity Thread to say that they don't want more diversity, my feeling is, it would be on them to explain why. I think the default position of a thread like this, until and unless the actual posting proves otherwise, is one of general support for the book in question. If someone comes in just to say otherwise, that's fine, but I think Danz was being a little overly sensitive--sure it became kind of a running joke, but not at his expense personally. I'm sure a couple of us would've been happy to offer up cogent thoughts on his criticisms if we'd known what they were, but all he said was "I didn't care for his old work". Which, again, is fine, but I don't think we're under any obligation to write an essay refuting what's basically the vaguest criticism possible.
Then again with some products the default position is that it isn't good. When posting in a LOTF thread you don't have to say anything except "it was a train". Go to general movie boards and start a thread about Star Wars, and the opinions that won't get you into a debate are "ESB was best and Jar Jar wasn't the greatest thing ever".
So basically default mode is whatever is popular opinion. And by "popular opinion" I mean those of the "cool club". It'd be akin to the football QB and the cheerleader slut all saying that Soccer was stupid, so its on anyone then who says "no, Soccer is cool" despite being even-numbered or even out-numbering the jock/slut.
Cooper, you and a few others fawn over JJM, so therefore "default mode" is that JJM is God and his writing is Shakespearean and must be respected and therefore all dissenters must predicate why they disagree.
Cooper, you and others have demonstrated that LOTF and FOTJ suck, and therefore the "default mode" for LOTF/FOTJ is that it sucks and those who would like it (I don't by-the-way) are required to give reason why they like it as opposed to those who don't like it.
Despite this flying in the face of your claim that it's the "default mode" for threads like this to offer support for said book/author. Despite that being the exact opposite of what occurs in Crucible, LOTF, or FOTJ, or SOTJ threads.
I was reeeeaally close to just walking away from this, but it just so happens that I was poking around my posting history recently, and I was embarrassed to realize that one of my first posts here was a snippy overreaction to a very mild miscommunication with another poster. To that poster's credit, they didn't hold it against me, and we eventually got along just fine. In that spirit, I'm going to rewind a little here.
Danz, I think JJM is one of the writers who best capture the feeling of ESB. His dialogue is smart, and weighty without being melodramatic, and he does some of the best cliffhangers and twists in the franchise. He's not afraid of unusual settings like Kesh or the NSW, and he makes a clear effort to use a diverse range of characters--both in terms of nonwhite, nonmale humans, and in terms of unusual alien races (a Krevaaki in Knight Errant! a frickin' Skytri in Lost Tribe!)--which many will tell you is very important to me, and I think, important to the franchise. Beyond that, Obi-Wan is absolutely my favorite thing about the prequels, and I'm excited to see JJM writing in the film era at last, because I know he's good with characters who have an ironic edge like Obi does, and the Dark Times period in particular could benefit a lot from more "modern" material that incorporates continuity the way that JJM's done in the past.
That's why I'm excited for the book. Are those popular opinions here? Sure. But that doesn't mean that yours aren't welcome, even if they're the opposite of what I said. I would be happy to hear some of them.
Hav and I's discussion of KOTOR: War over in the trades thread is a pretty effective counterpoint to this notion.
I wouldn't say you have to give reasons why you don't like author or their writing style or whatever, but without anything in the way of reasons or details what's there to discuss? It ends up as:
JJM's really good!
No he isn't!
Yes he is!
Was that what you were seeking in way of discussion? I have to think not.
My point being Ben that I was lambasted and then mocked because I dissented. No one had provided reason for *WHY* JJM was good (just like I didn't provide reasons why he WASN'T good). But yet I was lambasted and mocked. Typically that's not exactly a way then to get the person with the dissenting opinion to want to stay and give his reasons why.
People who read Star Wars books and speak Latin were just compared to quarterbacks and cheerleaders.
Way to add a lot to the discussion RunJedirun - and for the record, the analogy is spot on. Also for the record I never mentioned Latin or anyone speaking it.
For the record, you seem to be ignoring my last post, which makes me think you're not especially interested in an actual discussion.
If you want me to write my disagreements with JJM, wouldn't you rather I prepare my reasons rather than just spout a quick half-arsed 15-second thought post that doesn't accurately discuss the point and give my reasons?
I have 2 little children running around my house (5 and 3) that are currently vying for my time and attention, it's a bit rude for daddy to turn to them and say: "Sorry, daddy can't play with you right now, he needs to tell someone on a Star Wars forum why he's wrong."
I will get to my reasons and post them when I have adequate time tonight.
I said on page 2 I look forward to the book, it will have a lot to live up to for me since JJM describes it as a western and I have read Larry McMurtry.
Danz, to go back through the whole thing, you came into the thread to say you didn't care for Knight Errant or the Lost Tribe collection, and thus were feeling mixed about getting a Kenobi book from JJM. Perfectly fair to make that comment. Coop's reply to this was, "What do you have against good things?" Now, I understand that tone of voice doesn't communicate across the internet, but in the context of someone familiar with the boards, this wasn't a hostile comment. It was a joking way to invite you to elaborate -- "These are things I like, and so do many other people here. What don't you like about them?" You responded just by saying that they weren't good. Instantdeath then joked that maybe you weren't good, complete with wink smiley to suggest unseriousness. Certainly a statement that can be misinterpreted, and it didn't gain anybody anything, but it's not an attack on you. It's just Litizens being smartasses, which is common. You didn't care for that, and we had another joke made, but both JTS and Coop then attempted to explain that nobody was being serious, it wasn't about you personally, and Coop invited you, in plain language this time, to tell us about your feelings on JJM's books.
You've responded to this by upping the sensitivity, but this isn't about the cool club or whatever. Certainly nobody's "lambasted" you. Nobody's trying to shut down your opinion; Coop just wants to hear what your complaints are so we can have an actual discussion. I understand the basis of your feeling that you've been mocked or singled out, but the root of this is a misunderstanding, and I hope that you can step back and see that all we really want is a discussion. You've come in and disagreed with the consensus. Cool, but -- why? Once we know, we can discuss, which is what discussion threads are for. There's no need for hostility or anger -- you're not being persecuted.
Danz Borin For my part, I will more or less reiterate that my original stupid comment was intended as nothing more than a lazy way of saying "I disagree". I absolutely understand why someone would not like JJM's Star Wars output, and while I personally enjoy it, I'm not yet so jaded as to believe a persons preference in fiction should in anyway be used as a basis for judging the person. So, for what it's worth, I'll rescind that comment, on the basis of it being, as Havac pointed out, pretty useless for discussion, and a pretty poor excuse for a joke in the first place.
That said, I will say that, when phrases like "cool club" are being seriously thrown around on a Star Wars forum, that might be a good indication that the melodrama has risen to uncomfortable levels. Of course, populated forums often have regulars who tend to agree on certain things- in this case, there are definitely favorite authors, and favorite objects of derision- but this is not high school, and there are no cliques. No one is at gunpoint and expected to have to explain their opinions; that said, it's no coincidence that these places tend to be more fun when both parties do so.
So, since no one asked: I like JJM's Star Wars work because, above all, it makes great use of the material. I can tell from what I've seen of JJM's work that he's a great world builder, but in the Star Wars setting, he makes fabulous use of pre-existing species, locations, and characters to serve his own work. He's got a great talent for action and adventure, and all of his works convey a very compelling sense of exploration (he reminds me a lot of Brian Daley). He also writes very amusing dialogue. Not to say I don't have some problems with his work, problems I could easily see others disliking far more than I do, but all writers have weaknesses; in JJM's case, I find his strengths make him a near-perfect Star Wars author, and I'm also interested in what he'll do on his own.
But that's all details, anyway. As I said, you're under no obligation to explain why you don't like him/aren't particularly excited for Kenobi. Even so, I will respectfully suggest that, as fun as this forum is, it's not worth taking 100% seriously. Or even half that. Unless Kyle Katarn or Trioculus is mentioned. Certain matters call for complete seriousness.
Lost Tribe of the Sith - the Collected Stories is my one-and-only contact with JJM's work so far; and I tend not to take to previously unknown authors straight away (it took me two goes to read all through Scourge, for instance). That said, LTotS was what I call a "can't-put-downer", so that's why I am so looking forward to Kenobi.
It didn't hurt that JJM replied to a question of mine about Kesh (up-thread) very courteously and very promptly, either!
Unless they are disputing the indisputable godliness of Kyle Katarn.
god, I miss the times before the announcement of EP VII (even though I was mostly lurking not writing back then). now there seems to be hate and arguments wherever you go/read
I like how you use "jock" and "slut" as equivalent terms. No, wait, I don't.
Oh don't worry, we all hated each other before D-Day. We were a lot subtler about it though