Saga Star Wars, Lucas and TMIS

You are using a distinct useage - a personal one of planning an event which bears no resemblance to the meaning of the word in its context. A predetermined course of events is exactly that - decided in advance. The distinction that you appear to think makes a difference is whether there is an active agency involved....which comes down to whether the predetermined course of events (ie decided in advance) is purely an act of a blind science kind of nature or that there is a form of conscious deistic agency involved. Your use of the term predetermined in the example you gave would require an agency, an imperfect one, whose plans can be altered as they are not omniscient.

 

The dictionary definition literally goes out of its way to note that there are exceptions to its general definition. Tell me, why do you think it does that? And how is that not directly relevant to the discussion?

And yes, I have made a concession. I've genuinely come over to your side and decided that it makes more sense to abide by strict dictionary definitions, so as to avoid any linguistic confusion. You may think I'm being disingenuous, but I swear to you that I'm not. I'm not sure what else I can say.

Maybe the Force isn't omniscient. If the future is always in motion, it would stand to reason that it might not be.

 

The thing is that just using the strict definition of destiny doesn't mesh with philosophical discussions about destiny and whether one can try to change their destiny, or find their best one. This is part of the reason why the definition for destiny says that it is often held to be, but that does not mean that it always is. Meaning that there is at least one philosophical belief that people can alter their destinies, for good or ill, regardless of some grand cosmic scheme.

 

So...you're accepting that it is predetermined through a "power of agency"? What you're really questioning then is whether that agency is of an "irresistible" nature?

But then....why have faith in that Force? It seems a pretty....ermm, crappy kind of Force that can't actually get anything done. How is that Force, the crappy non-omniscient Force that is possibly depicted here going to be able to sort itself out?

 

OBI-WAN: "This is Master Obi-Wan Kenobi. I regret to report that both our Jedi Order and the Republic have fallen, with the dark shadow of the Empire rising to take their place. This message is a warning and a reminder for any surviving Jedi: Trust in the Force. Do not return to the Temple. That time has passed, and our future is uncertain. We will each be challenged in our trust, our faith, our friendships. But we must persevere, and in time, a new hope will emerge. May the Force be with you always."

He was telling them to have faith in the Force that all is not lost. That while the situation was grim, there was always hope that it could get better. That they needed to have faith in that and in the Force. Some Jedi didn't and they went their own way, whether they were active or not. Kanan had lost faith for a long time until his faith in the Force was renewed through his relationship with his friends and through his training Ezra. Even more so when he was able to commune with Yoda. So much so that when he fought the Inquisitor the last time aboard the Sovereign, he realized that having faith in the Force was stronger than the fear that he had felt when he first fought him at the Imperial base on Lothal. That he was stronger than he had realized and that he could resist the dark side and reject it.

In having faith, the Jedi survivors could see a solution present itself like Kanan did. Like Obi-wan and Yoda do when the Skywalker children were born. As Qui-gon told Yoda, the key is to look for an opportunity and seize it.

 

Here's the reference point

"Faith in the Force means that they have to trust that everything that has happened has happened for a reason and that it can work itself out. Anakin's greater destiny is that faith. That he can save the galaxy because his best destiny is that he wants to save people."

Faith in the Force is based upon this....that's what faith is all about. The last few pages have been spent dancing around this idea, so I want to try and sum up where we are, to understand what has been said and what it all really means in terms of the discussion.

So, in this context the latest argument is that the Force isn't omniscient, it isn't all powerful. In fact it appears to be a reactive agency so it is also not all-wise and all-knowing. If this is the Force then...it is no different than any other character. So...why would anybody place faith in that Force, as opposed to their own agency - which, in effect is no different.

Except...that can't be the case because only Anakin can destroy the Sith, only Anakin is able to...how can that be? There are, essentially, two possibilities.

The first is that the Force is behind everything, that everything that has happened has happened for a reason, and that reason is the Force. Everything is pre-determined and pre-destined by means of an irresistible power of agency (the Force)...and the characters must simply submit to whatever the Force has predeterined will occur (this actually fits the reference quote)

The second is that the Force is...well, it's making it up on the fly, it is reacting to events...but somehow still insists on having Anakin be the 'one'. It isn't, seemingly, powerful enough to destroy the Sith itself...yet somehow can create events that ensure how it wants things to happen will come to be!? I mean...at a really obvious level..if the Force knows the future it could weaken the rail that holds Palpatine up while Yoda falls...surely? There is so much it could do (it could make Palpatine stumble while Mace fights him...it could manipulate the midiclorians in his body so that his power wanes) if it were actually all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful etc.

But that, the second kind of Force...why would you put faith in that? You aren't actually left with faith but have only, instead, hope. You can only hope that eventually Anakin will make the right choice - because everything depends upon that. Every other choice is...irrelevant. The Force has bet everything on this 'chosen one' and any faith in that is actually simply to submit to the idea that the Force has decided that is it's outcome.

There is one other alternative but...that makes the whole prophecy, the chosen one etc. irrelevant to the story. It is that the characters make their own choices. That Anakin isn't the only one who can, but is the one who does. That makes all the choices the Jedi made based upon the prophecy the real problem - the dogma of the prophecy becomes the issue, such that Qui-Gon is more wrong than he is right. But that doesn't match with the 'sainthood' of Qui-Gon enacted in TCW.

So...which is it? darth-sinister do you stand by the statement I have quoted or are you going to dance around it? Is it the first option, or the second? Does everything happen for a reason, that reason being the Force or is the will of the Force simply a reactive 'character' with limited agency? Just like any other character in the movies...except it has imposed an injunction - only Anakin can.

The thing is, the second option.....well, all that that Force really is is...an author. An author who's making the story up on the fly, who has a known outcome and doesn't really know how to get there. The Force, in that instance, becomes simply a story-telling prop. It is the quintessence of 'because...the Force'. There is, to put it another way, no story being told, no real narrative....there are just a bunch of scenes which contain a number of concepts - through imagery and dialogue - with which we might engage, but no structure within which any of them are developed.

 

The thing is that it is meant to be unknown. This isn't because Lucas is a poor writer, but because as he said, in telling the story, he wanted to illustrate that there are things within the universe that are unknowable. That there are great mysteries of life that people do not know and may never know, because we have not reached the kind of evolutionary stage where we can understand the meaning of life. The meaning of existence and the purpose for why are we here and why do things happen as they do. Rather than having the Force be like Zeus, the Force is presented in the more real world view of why does God or fate allow bad things to happen to good people. In this case, we have Qui-gon Jinn who believes that a divine influence (the Force) created a being to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. While we also have Darth Sidious claim that another Sith Lord had become practically a god like being and was able to create life, which in turn meant that he created the very person who would destroy the Sith and that the Force never did a thing at all. What we have is science (Plagueis) versus religion (Qui-gon).

Maybe the Force did it on its own and maybe it didn't. If it did, the motives for why and how it does what it does is meant to be a mystery. If it had, it created Anakin to be the instrument, the vessel needed to bring balance. Anakin's future is the result of his choices. If the Force didn't do it, then what we have is a person who fit the criteria regardless of what the Sith may have done. The only thing that is known is that someone foresaw Anakin killing Sidious and the Jedi were aware of that and had for a time put faith in the prophecy.

The Jedi speak of faith in the Force, but that does not mean that they do not act on their own agency. It means that the two work hand-in-hand. Like symbiosis. Case in point, in the novel "Dark Lord", we have a Jedi Master in Roan Shryne who has lost faith in himself, in the Jedi Order and in the Force. And this was before Order 66. When it came down and the Jedi Purge began, Shryne's faith was sorely lacking that there other Jedi survivors and that they could mount an attack on the Empire. But towards the end of the book, Shyrne goes to Kashyyyk and in fighting Vader, he starts to regain his faith in everything. So much so that he foresees the downfall of the Empire before he's killed by Vader. He puts his faith in the Force because that is all he has left. He believes that the Jedi can recover from this and that the Sith will be destroyed for good, even knowing that Vader is Anakin. He choose to fight and die, rather than just give up.

When I said that everything that happened has happened for a reason, I was referring to Obi-wan and Yoda's belief in why they survived Order 66 and made it to where they are on Polis Massa. They believe that there is more to it then luck and more to it than mere skill alone. They believe that the Force is with them and that there is still hope as long as they live. Remember, the Jedi and Sith both say this about the Force.

OBI-WAN: "The Force will be with you...always!"

DOOKU: "The Force is with us, Master Sidious."

Yoda and Obi-wan both believe that there is more than just mere chance and when they learn of the children, they put their faith in them and in the Force that this is the right thing to do. That's what people of faith do. The Jedi who don't put faith in the Force, well, they stopped doing anything. Hence we have Kanan Jarrus. The Jedi Masters believe that they have a destiny and a path that was laid out for them. They can choose to trust in the Force and that it would lead to salvation, or not to trust it and instead do something that will probably fail and could result in their deaths. The Force doesn't choose for them, they have to choose to believe in it.

 

So...there isn't a story? There are just some ideas? So...in these scenarios there is a possibility that my own reading (that following the prophecy, the Jedi's faith in Anakin) was misplaced, was the error. Had they ignored that dogma they would have better been able to deal with the Sith. The Jedi's real problem was following the dogma of Qui-Gon. Because, especially in the second option you offered, Anakin is not the only one who can, he just happens to be the one who does.

In that second option it is quite possible, then, to see nothing other than coincidence and a form of self-fulfillment in the prophecy. That Anakin ends up being the one who does simply because of the position he finds himself in due to the error of putting faith in him. It is, in fact, perfectly feasible from that perspective to see that the Jedi are not acting in "faith" in the OT but that what they teach Luke is in fact what they should have concentrated on in the PT. ie - that one's own understanding and choices are what really matter.

This is all perfectly reasonable within the films given that, as you say, there is much that is unknown... however, you argue that that view of the OT is 'wrong', so you appear, actually, to be arguing now something other than you have been arguing up to this point.

How about sticking to what is in the movies? If we're talking about the saga, and the story the saga is telling, it makes no sense to bring in or highlight concepts the movies are supposedly revealing by means of sources outside of them.

But you didn't just say "everything happens for a reason", you followed that by saying that "it can work itself out" that "it" being the Force. Again, you are dancing around what you have actually said...which is odd because you seem at other times to be quite strident in telling others how they ought to see the movies.

Outside of the movies Obi-Wan and Yoda believe there is more than just chance...but you get to the heart of this dispute...and possibly why some of us are less than enamored of the PT than others. I am not a "person of faith"...not in the sense you mean it here. I believe in the sense of 'faith' I saw in the OT, and that's a very different concept. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny....Obi-Wan knew the difference.

 

No, I'm merely pointing out that in terms of the origin of Anakin, it is unclear what triggered the event. Something I've said for quite some time. And that with the Jedi and Sith, they have differing views of the Force because of how they have evolved. Neither side is certain of how he came to be, but they know that he exists and both believe that he can be a great asset to their cause.

The Jedi's faith in Anakin wasn't misplaced entirely. They were right to have faith in him,.however there is such a thing as blind faith. Qui-gon knew the risks in taking Anakin away from Shmi and in ignoring them, he had inadvertently caused the destruction of the Jedi. But that decision was right in the end, because despite what he did, he does do the right thing at the end. Obi-wan had blind faith in Anakin because he had grown close to him and he was trying to live up to Qui-gon's beliefs. So when Anakin breaks that faith by becoming a Sith, Obi-wan is left with a choice to kill his friend or not. He winds up compromising which in turn allows Vader to survive and thus set him on his path. The Council was wise enough to see that Anakin could be dangerous, but Mace also had enough faith to believe in Anakin for a time, as did Yoda. But by the end, the Jedi that are left appear to have no faith in Anakin, but they do with Luke. While it is Luke who has faith in his father which is what saves him.

In regards to Qui-gon, if they had ignored everything about the prophecy and Anakin, then there would be no hope at all when Order 66 came down. He would not have been trained and the Jedi would never be able to recover. The Alliance wouldn't have survived at Yavin 4 and everything would be lost. By putting their faith in Qui-gon's beliefs, though it caused problems, it yielded solutions. Thus Anakin becomes a Jedi, but he has children with Padme and these children help keep the flame alive. And it is Luke who keeps the Alliance going past Yavin 4, all the way to Endor where the final battle takes place.

Why not? It makes points about faith among Jedi.

And as I've said, working itself out is finding a solution that presents itself. They look to the Force for guidance and place their faith and trust in it, to show them the way. The way is the children of Skywalker. And I have never told anyone how to watch the films. I've pointed out that their conclusions were misplaced because of whatever reason, be it personal bias or what not, they didn't see what was being said in the films. Or at least implied. And that they shouldn't get upset that what they thought was right is instead not entirely correct.

You don't have to be a person of faith to enjoy the films. I'm not a religious person, but I believe that there are things beyond our own understanding. That there is a possibility that there is a mystical field that does control our destiny, even when we like to believe that there isn't. That is is possible that what we define as free will is only a limited concept and that it might be a bit illusionary. I can't say with 100% certainty, but that's what life is. Certainty and uncertainty.

 

Said Han Solo, not Obi-Wan. When he claims that the Force does not exist, we are not intended to think that he is right. You deliberately misread the scene.

"Your destiny lies along a different path from mine."

 

So...are you saying that Anakin's genesis isn't unknown or are you saying it is unknown? If it is unknown then my reading is perfectly legitimate, so your answer "no" would appear misplaced. Or are you saying it is only one of these two options (the Force created him or the Sith created him)? In which case (and with the emphasis that the Jedi were "right" to have faith "in him" then..it is the Force either way, isn't it? Let's put that another way...which of the two do you think it is? It seems you are not actually arguing that it is unknown, but rather is known but could be the Force acting of its own volition or in reaction to Sith meddling.

Whichever way, if it leads to the conclusion that the Jedi were "right" to have "faith in" Anakin, then he is created by the Force. By explicitly decrying "no" to my own reading of Anakin's "unknown" genesis you reveal the truth of your argument.

You are dancing again. What do you believe is his origin?

Except..it isn't Luke's faith in his father that saves him. It is Anakin's reaction (choice) to Luke's example. Luke has put aside his blind faith in his father and realised it is his own choices that matter here. If it were faith in his father, why did he not choose his father's path? It was precisely that he rejected the path that his father took that leads him to throw down his lightsabre.

But...if they had not placed their faith in Anakin then...he could not have stopped Mace from destroying Palpatine. Palpatine actively uses Anakin to consolidate his power. Their faith in him allowed Palaptine to gain power...but, but if you mean that Anakin is actually the only one who can (as opposed to who does) then you are again retracting some of your earlier argument, because if he is the only one who can then the Force must have "a destiny and a path that was laid out for them" rather than a "vessel" who can make his own choices.


Dancing again.

Because we are discussing the story that the movies tell, so I don't see how non-movie material is in any way relevant to that discussion.

So.that the Force (as if willfully, consciously) presents "a destiny and a path that was laid out for them"...which is to say, it predetermines their actions. But then, as you have said "everything that has happened has happened for a reason" and "it can sort itself out" - in other words 'you don't have to think or make choices, just go along with the plan *the reason that everything that has happened has happened) or...to put it another way "submit" to the will of the Force.

How long can you dance around this? What do you believe the story is darth-sinister?

And..thanks for the lol.. "I have never told anyone how to watch the films.....they shouldn't get upset that what they thought was right is instead not entirely correct".....pure gold...

Hmmmm, and yet, you conflate science with wizardry and sorcery; "What we have is science (Plagueis) versus religion (Qui-gon). "

 

Except that he is wrong. That is the difference. Because he is not a Force user who has been trained in the ways of the Force, he does not know how wrong he is.

I think you miss the point which is that it doesn't matter how he was created, all that matters is that he exists and does what was foreseen long ago. The Jedi being right to have faith that he will bring balance to the Force is not dependent on his birthright. The points of view of the Jedi and Sith regarding his birth are neither right, nor wrong. They're just points of view. The only key difference is that the Jedi's beliefs in the Force being more than a mystical energy field is sound, due to the nature of Mortis and the Priestesses. That there is more to existence than what is perceived, but it is unclear how much more there is.

Luke does choose his father's path.

LUKE: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

He chooses to be a Jedi Knight like his father once was, rather than become what his father has become as a Sith Lord. The difference is that he chooses to not take vengeance, but offers up compassion for his father by granting him mercy. The same mercy that Anakin couldn't grant Dooku all those years ago. But Luke still has faith in his father which is why he begs him to help him.

LUKE: "Father, please. Help me."

That very same mercy is what makes Anakin choose to help Luke.

Mace didn't have faith in Anakin, which is why he left him at the Temple. Because he could sense fear and confusion within the boy and he felt that was a dangerous thing to do, if **** went down. When Anakin is there though, Mace does put some faith in Anakin to help him with Palpatine. Just as Palpatine puts faith in Anakin to side with him. Anakin makes his choice. Just as he does again with Luke.

And yes, I have said that Anakin's destiny and path was laid out. He had to choose to follow it or not. He is the only one who can because A) he's connection to the Force is greater which gives him the edge and B) in both situations, he is the only one who is able to stop Palpatine since the other Jedi cannot. That is why in the novelization, Mace realizes that Palpatine's weakness is that he trusts Anakin far too much. He trusts him to become a Sith and help him in his conquest. This same trust is why he doesn't sense the conflict in Vader that Luke does and is why he is ultimately killed.

It is relevant in that faith in the Force is a powerful thing among the Jedi.

It doesn't predetermine their actions. It shows the result of choices that were made in the future and it is up to the Jedi or Sith to figure it out. The Jedi put their faith in the Force because solutions to impossible situations are not impossible, they just need to look for the solutions and put their faith in that they are correct. The Jedi and Sith believe in destiny, but they still have to make choices.

Did I say you had to watch it this way? No. I only said that that this is what was there to the story. It was always part of the story.

With regards to how Anakin was born. Plagueis had believed that he could do more than just move objects and generate lightning. He believed that a Force user could create life and stop death. Qui-gon believed that the Force didn't need someone to do what was done, but that the Force itself could operate on its own accord. Science vs religion is an analogy here.

 

Star Wars is a story conceived by George Lucas, a man who is neither an atheist nor an agnostic. You don't have to believe anything you don't want to believe, but you can't deny that a story is about something just because you don't happen to like that something. I'm not going to read The Chronicles of Narnia and claim that it's actually a polemic against the Christian faith because the only way I can enjoy a story is if it happens to reinforce every single one of my own personal beliefs about the world. That would be ridiculous.

 

Han Solo's entire arc in the movies is about admitting he was wrong and being less cynical.

Again, you're allowed to believe anything you want to. But you're not entitled to have every piece of media you consume reflect your own personal worldview in every way. That's just not realistic. I don't know where you got the idea that I was saying Lucas was a patronizing or condescending man. I think he told a story, and then he put it out there for people to think what they will. You can certainly admire the Han Solo of A New Hope, who smirks at the Force and doesn't believe in anything larger than himself. That's fine. But Han Solo is clearly and definitively proven wrong in the movies. You can't deny actual facts about the things that clearly happen in a straightforward narrative.

Star Wars is indeed not The Chronicles of Narnia. What I was doing was making an analogy. An analogy is when you compare things that are similar in specific ways, in order to demonstrate a point. They don't have to be exactly the same in every way; in fact, if they were, it would no longer be an analogy. The important similarity at issue is the fact that both Star Wars and Narnia are fictional stories written by authors with worldviews which a good number of their potential audience members may not share. I agree with you that C.S Lewis could be patronizing and condescending in real life, but the fact that he wrote a story which reflects his own life and experiences is not an example of that. There's nothing wrong with writing a story that reflects your own views about the world. No one is forcing you to like Lucas's opinions, nor to adopt them yourself. All anyone is asking is that you accept that these are Lucas's opinions, and that they were reflected in the story of the OT just as they were in the story of the PT.

 

He is wrong in what he thinks the Jedi believe, in believing that what the Jedi follow is a "hokey religion". But, revealed your opinion is...

But apparently it does matter, you are dancing around this again. If it was not a matter of his birthright then my take on the matter (which I elucidated a few posts ago) would be perfectly legitimate, but you said, very explicitly "no". So, there is, in your revealed opinion, absolutely a 'right' way of viewing this - and you , though jigging around the idea, express the 'truth' of it here. That the Jedi were "right" (though you try to argue that they are neither "right, nor wrong" you follow up by saying that "the Jedi's beliefs in the Force being more than a mystical energy field is sound" - sound being, of course, equivalent to "right")

And...on what basis are they "sound"? On this basis ;"due to the nature of Mortis and the Priestesses". So, not only not in the OT, but not in the movies at all.

So, again, you try merrily to dance around your own opinion of what the movies are about (which is what you are really arguing, but hiding behind what you apparently see as a 'shield' of 'facts'), trying very hard not to explicitly state what you believe is the story but actually revealing a very deep-seated 'truth' that you see in it. You reveal yourself again by stating (as if it is a fact, ie something known) that the Force is "more than a mystical energy field" - ie that it is consciously willful; that it is a character with its own agency/

So, truthfully, you are not arguing that Anakin's origins are "unknown" but that the Force is, ultimately, responsible for his origin....but that we don't know how (more on that later).

Luke does follow his father's path? Really? Did his father's path then stop at some time in the past? What are you on about? He understands the path his father has followed (hence looking to his own mechanical hand after cutting off Vader's) and realises if he continues he will be no different than Vader - in other words he rejects the path his father took. Are you seriously arguing that you don't understand that? That is what that scene is all about, that is what makes that scene so powerful....so, as I suggested, by imposing these 'PT' notions over the OT you weaken the points made in the OT.

And...screaming in agony, in desparation for someone to help you is not faith. It is in hope, nothing more. Why else does Luke look so surprised by Vader's actions? Because he was expecting them (which surely actually would be faith)?

It is not Luke's faith in his father which saves him, it is his own example - his own choice - which awakens his father, which 'saves' his father.

Only by following the prophecy is Anakin even a Jedi. He could not have been there for Palpatine to use had they not followed the prophecy. He could not have got Dooku out of the way, he could not have stopped Mace, he could not have lead the attack on the Temple, he could not have wiped out the Separatist leadership who would be able to confirm that Sidious (now revealed as Palpatine) was always behind the war. In all the movies, what does Anakin actually do to better the position of the Republic or the Jedi? Truly?

Here's where the idea of agency really seems to be misunderstood I think. Here you equate agency as being able to choose the right path as ordained by the Force or not. That is it. Your argument attempts 'logic' but gets stuck at "he is the only one who is able to stop Palpatine since the other Jedi cannot." - because there is no explanation for this, it is self-explanatory. But, you keep revealing what the truth of this is, that Anakin is the only one who can because...the Force. That is it. There is no other explanation.

But that, then, raises other questions. Is the Force, then, incapable of affecting Palpatine? It can create Anakin (in whichever way it does, I will address this a little later - in case you think you have room for deniability on this point) but can't interfere with Palpatine...? How so? This seems like a pretty impotent deity (which it must be if it, as you say "more than a mystical energy field").

But, you also say that "everything that has happened has happened for a reason" and that what that reason is is...the Force. So...the Force, in that understanding, must have always intended for this set of events. If not, why have faith in it? But then, as a good man, how could you have faith in a Force that has caused so much destruction, death and misery. And yes, I say caused.

Always with the dancing.... you have already revealed that you believe Anakin was created by the Force, that Anakin is the only one who can, for which the only explanation is the Force, and so of course the Force (which is the reason that everything that has happened has happened) absolutely binds everybody into their destinies, their pre-determined actions.

You've stated that people were "wrong" to see what they saw in the movies, that their way is "not correct"...you are, absolutely, telling people how they should see the story. And, your claims about what the story was "always" about are based on later qualifications and drafts whose contents were pared down to a story that was tye OT...some ideas from which Lucas later decided to implement in later stories.

With regards to how Anakin was born. Plagueis had believed that he could do more than just move objects and generate lightning. He believed that a Force user could create life and stop death. Qui-gon believed that the Force didn't need someone to do what was done, but that the Force itself could operate on its own accord. Science vs religion is an analogy here.[/quote]

So, your 'analogy' of science from the Star Wars movies is a couple of hooded 'wizards' firing 'magical' lightening into a pool of water and conjuring life somewhere in the galaxy? Not hyperdrive capable spacecraft, seemingly conscious droids, photon blasters, bionic limb replacement, cloning, lightsabres..etc,?

I suggest then, from all that you have written, that your take on the story is that Anakin is created by the Force (either of its own volition or in reaction to Pagius's meddling (which wizardly meddling you conflate with science)), that it creates him as the chosen one....who will destroy the Sith. That Qui-Gon was lead to him by the Force... That the Force is a conscious, willful deistic entity and that the choices the characters make are right or wrong depending upon whether they comply with a criteria set out by that willfully conscious deity the Force.

Would I be right? Can you actually come out from behind the curtains of Lucas quotes and reveal your own thoughts on the matter? Can you accept that your take on the story being told is an opinion that you hold?

 

There's a difference between what fictional characters believe in a fictional universe and what you believe in your life. No one is saying that you have to believe in God in the real world, but in the world of "Star Wars", there is a power that is far more than just that and that it is as said. It guides you towards your destiny, whether you follow it or not.

And he is also wrong in thinking that it doesn't apply to him.

I'm not dancing. I am merely pointing out that there is no correct or incorrect answer regarding how Anakin was born, just what he would do. He is the only one that can stop the Sith, not that he is the only one that does stop them. The Force shows paths and the Jedi choose to believe that there is something that guides them. Mortis and the Priestesses represent that there are planes of existence that the Jedi were unaware of until now. Just as the Sith were unaware of them.

Again, Luke states, "I am a Jedi like my father before me." What part of that don't you get? Anakin's path was to become a Jedi. That was his life. Luke followed that. He just chooses not to follow the other path that his father took. We're both saying the same thing, only differently.

I never said that Luke's choice didn't play a part. But that it was his faith in him that he was a good man, that helped spur him along. And I just watched the clip and do not see surprise.

Why does he have to better the position of the Republic and the Jedi? His greater destiny is to simply destroy the Sith. His best destiny was to help people, which he did by being a Jedi. Anakin doesn't even know of the prophecy when he chooses to become a Jedi. He chooses because that is what he saw himself in a vision that he mistook for a dream and finds that this is what he wants to be. Everything that he did in his life was his choice, not because he was destined to do anything other than destroy the Sith.

Anakin is the only one who can because he was foreseen as having done this. A future event seen by someone. Not the Force saying, this is what will happen, but rather looking to the future like the Skywalker men do. His genetic makeup gave him the means to accomplish it. The other Jedi cannot stop Palpatine because they do not have a strong connection to the Force like Anakin does. Nor are they in the position to do so in ROTJ, since they're all dead.

As to your other point, this is one of the reasons Lucas had for introducing the notion that the Sith created Anakin and not the Force.

The Force didn't cause this to happen. Palpatine did. He engineered the war, the Purge, everything. Death and destruction is the result of people's choices. Whether the Force is a deity or not, people have free will to choose. Just like we do if there was a God and He/She allows us to do what we do, because we have choice. The Jedi have faith in the Force because without faith, there is no hope. No hope means that everything is doomed to failure. They have faith that a new hope will rise to crush the Empire and stop the Sith.

I never said that they were wrong. At the very least, misinformed or misinterpreted. That there was more than one way and that at the very least acknowledge that it is there. And to not get ticked off because it is there.

There was always a religious element. That never went away. Stuff like the prophecy may have been added in later, but other stuff like religion, was part of it. Same with destiny.

 

From what I have seen, Lucas did show how a good person ends up becoming a villain. He also managed to present Anakin's arc as a mythic tragedy and utilize general storytelling for both trilogies. What he did for the OT, Lucas also did for the PT. But whereas the OT had a happy ending, the PT did not.

 

He isn't talking about our world. SW is fantasy, not a description of the real world. The point is that as a description of where things stand in-universe, his line is not meant to be taken as gospel, because in-universe the Force exists.

 

I'm not indicating that. In fact, I've said multiple times, very clearly, that that's not what I'm saying. I believe I've said more than once that I'm an atheist, so I'm not sure how you could think that was my opinion.