Saga Star Wars Philosophy: Jedi and Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Twi'lekPrince, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Arawn_Fenn Jedi Grand Master

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    The living Force contains both light and dark sides. ( That is not to say a similar model can't be imposed on the Cosmic Force. )
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The Living Force is what the Jedi and Sith can sense from people around them and what they use to either understand them, or manipulate them. Depending on the faction. The Unifying Force is where one can see the larger tapestry of the universe and can see into the future, or the past. Even those who are gone.The only darkness is what lays in your heart, which manifests in what will come next in your life. Particularly, those visions that Anakin has. Which is why Yoda warns him to be careful because he will see negative things based on his emotional state.
  3. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Depending on the faction? Hardly. Jedi manipulate things and people just as Sith do.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The only manipulation is the mind trick and that's often used to avoid a physical confrontation.

    -TPM, Qui-gon was in a hurry and thus used it to be on his way. Then to save Jar Jar. He did try it on Watto, for the same reasons.

    -AOTC, Obi-wan uses it to get rid of Elan Sleazebaggo so that he won't get in the way of Zam coming at him. Anakin uses it to stop the Reek.

    -ROTS, it's not used.

    -ANH, Obi-wan doesn't want to fight the Stormtroopers in order to get past the check point.

    -TESB, it's not used.

    -ROTJ, Luke uses it to speak to Jabba and try to get Han out without a fight.
  5. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

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    This doesn't seem to make much sense. If the dark side is simply the absence of the light, which is the Force in its entirety, then how can the Sith ever use the Force, and why is the dark side stronger in terms of simple power levels?
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  6. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    "Is the dark side stronger?"

    "No, no."
  7. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

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    I said in terms of simple power levels. Surely you didn't think I was unaware of the one movie quote primarily dealing with that question?

    The dark side isn't stronger overall, because it consumes you and ultimately destroys you. But it is stronger on a superficial level. You can achieve more, and faster:

    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Apr 17, 2014
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  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The dark side is only stronger if you seek to use it for selfish purposes. The true power of the Force is that it is meant for knowledge and wisdom. To be used in defense of others. Not to subjugate others.
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  9. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

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    Mar 2, 2013
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    How did you arrive in such a conclusion?
    Just because the Jedi say that the Force is meant for wisdom and defence of other, it does not mean that it truly is.

    IMO, the Force has no singular purpose. Its user defines the purpose.

    And as for power, master users of the Dark Side have been able to achieve power far greater than any Light side user. The Dark Side is stronger in every way compared to the Light Side by definition. The Dark Side will transform and change you. If you can accept that change without reservations, then it will reward you with immense power. The Jedi, by definition cannot achieve that level of power. Their purpose is to fight and control that transformation, and thus they are limited in what they accomplish.

    Obviously, in the long run, someone who has been fully corrupted with the Dark Side will lose to those that follow the Light. Not because the Jedi are more powerful that he/she is, but because the nature of the Dark-Side is to breed rivalry. Sith have always stabbed each other in the back for centuries, even after the Rule of Two, which minimized the damage, but did not prevent it from happening.


    As for wisdom, Jedi are fearful of delving into the Force’s greatest secrets, in fear of losing themselves to the Dark Side. The Sith also choose not to learn more of the Light Side, as they believe it is inferior to their power. Both parties are wrong. For one to find true wisdom and knowledge, he/she must learn both sides of the Force; Dark and Light. Then he/she will have attained the self-control and loyalty that the Jedi have, and the fierce power and manipulation that the Sith have. He/she will choose what to employ whenever or wherever there is need.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Because when a Jedi is clam, at peace and passive within their minds, they will know the difference from the good and the bad. And it is when they listen to the Midichlorians telling them the will of the Force and work in connection to it, that they find the true purpose of what they do.


    Those who seek power become corrupted by it. That is why the Jedi do not seek the power of the Force through the dark side. True power comes from the knowledge and wisdom therein. That is what Qui-gon taught Yoda and Obi-wan.

    YODA: "Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ..."

    QUI -GON: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."

    YODA: "Eternal consciousness."

    QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

    YODA:" . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."
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  11. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

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    The fact that Jedi argue that True Power comes from knowledge and wisdom, does not mean it is true.
    Ask Darth Bane (or any Sith for that matter), or even another Jedi, the same question and he/she will provide a very very different answer. It is all a matter of perspective.

    Especially the fact that Qui-Gon believes that “You will become more powerful than any Sith” is a completely biased opinion. Qui-Gon never fell to the Dark Side, nor did he rise through the ranks of the Sith Lords. He had no idea what meant to be a Sith, nor the true nature of the Dark Side. He has not examined all the evidence to reach a conclusion.

    Yoda here, though, seems to believe that a power greater of all comes when you (the Jedi) have already died and still have an influence to the world.

    Thus, “defying oblivion”, meaning becoming like Obi-Wan in the OT, is a doable process for the Sith as well. There have been Force Ghosts of Sith scattered all around the Valley of Korriban. They also retain their consciousness but they are bound to their tombs, meaning they cannot “travel” to other planets like Obi-Wan did, nor communicate with their followers at will. However, they possess their ability to fight. That is why most of the tombs of Korriban have never been looted. Force Ghosts (angry ones, especially if you aim to defile their tomb) are able to defeat any Force and non-Force User. The only exception comes when the Force User can bind the ghost to his/her body, something achieved through a very difficult ritual of the Sith.

    Also, IMO, that kind of immense power that Yoda is referring to is no match to what Darth Plagueis achieved. As you probably know, he was able to influence midichlorians to create or preserve life. Achieving immortality that way allows you to still have an influence in the world, but also possess the ability to fight/use the force etc. whenever the need arises.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Two things.

    1. Lucas doesn't recognize that part of the EU. That's why he wrote the line saying how a Jedi can become one with the Force, but a Sith cannot due to their evil nature. When Yoda goes to the Sith world, all he finds an illusion of Bane. Not the man himself.

    2. The Sith spirits used magic to do what they did and as a result, they went insane and weren't truly one with the Force like Luke, Qui-gon, Yoda, Obi-wan, Anakin, Ulic and the rest. Palpatine referred to it as madness when retaining his identity and something that he didn't wish to be a part of. Plagueis, as revealed in his novel, didn't get the job done. He couldn't create life and his attempt at doing so resulted in Anakin's creation separate from his actions.
  13. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

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    Yoda's encounter with Bane was a complete stab in the back regarding Force Ghosts. I do not know why Dave wanted Bane to be an illusion (probably he did not want Yoda fight another major Sith in the same episode), but there have been and still are Force Ghosts in the Tombs of Korriban that were/are quite deadly in their encounters. As far as I know, the only two Sith Lords that managed to contain the Ghost's power were Darth Nox and Darth Zash.

    Palpatine did not retain his identity by becoming a Force Ghost. He was able to use Transfer Essence to achieve immortality. And as far as I know, he did not go mad. He did not enjoy the transfer, as it was a painful process, but other than that there were no other side-effects concerning his mental health. Sure, it caused rapid degeneration of his power and was needed to change into new bodies quite often. In my opinion, Transfer Essence was a Force Power that should be used rarely. The Sith Emperor did use it very little and only when it was absolutely needed. Palpatine used the force power too much and too often that it became a hindrance rather than an advantage.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    It was done because Lucas laid down the rules for ghosts in ROTS and that extended to the cartoon. That's why so much was changed in TCW with regards to past EU material.


    I'm talking about when Palpatine met with the Sith spirits, it was discussed that becoming one with the Force was like being in hell. I haven't read DE in a while, but I'm pretty sure that's what it meant. He referred to it as a form a madness.
  15. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

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    I see. In the EU, and especially the Old Republic Era, Force Ghosts of the Sith were not mad, nor in pain. Some ghosts, though craved battle and were tired of being isolated to their tombs. They were at peace there, something that those particular Sith were not accustomed to and grew impatient. So, in that way maybe it was maddening for them.
  16. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    Can you give some examples, bitte?
  17. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

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    Sure.

    Darth Ergast, the one Force Ghost that knew how to bind Force Ghosts. Darth Nox tricked him into learning the power and then binding him as well.
    Darth Andru, which is the kind of ghost I was referring to; he was so impatient that he seethed with an undying hatred
    Kalatosh Zavros, a Jedi who fell to the Dark Side under the leadership of Darth Revan.
    Horak-mul, the most known Sith Lord from the ones mentioned. He was killed and buried on Yavin 4, but Republic looters were transporting his body above the planet of Hoth, where they crashed. He was much more powerful than the rest of the Force Ghosts mentioned as he could infiltrate the mind of an individual, and if unable to resist the ghost's power, Horak took control of the body of the victim. However, this was only done once, as only Darth Nox found his tomb on Hoth and he was able to resist him.
    For me Horak is the kind of Sith that was patient enough to wait. He did not crave the battle like the others above, but he did not want to be subjugated to a body as well. So, when Nox bound him, he did not like it, but realised that it was his only way of escpating that tomb.

    Hope this helps.
    There are many more, but I cannot remember them from the top of my head.
  18. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    Gracias, well they are all from the games (except Horak-mul but he is not jet a ghost in the comics) so that explain why I have not heard of them
    Last edited by Gamiel, Apr 21, 2014
  19. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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    @Anzeroth2112 - please don't rely on EU references like that in Saga discussions, they're not relevant to this forum when taken to such a detailed and specific level.

    This forum is for discussing the films (and 'supplementary material') only.
  20. Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master

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    Mar 2, 2013
    star 4

    OK sorry [face_peace] Forgot this was the "Saga in-depth thread".
    Nevertheless, in my opinion, the main theme of this topic cannot be thoroughly discussed if it does not include EU material as well.
    In any way, I will stop the EU references :)
  21. Kato Sai Jedi Knight

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    Apr 27, 2014
    star 4
    The Jedi have been compared to the Christian Knights Templar and Hospitallers (Star Wars In History) and The Sith seem to have much in common with the Occult (black robes, sentient sacrifice, alchemy, some are even called witches, and etc). Another possibility is that Jedi are white magic users and the Sith dark magic users. In fact, there is plethora of different possible meanings and symbolism to the two. Originally, it was just a mystical force and good vs. evil. But the inspiration for the Jedi and Sith seems to come from belief systems that exist. I would definitely say that Jedi and Sith since the Prequels are Yin and Yang. That their philosophies compare more with Nestorianism, Zoroastrianism, Catharism, Dualism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. George Lucas, the Architect, grew up a Methodist Christian and has since the Prequel era delved into Buddhist beliefs. Ultimately, you could claim every religion and philosophy is enveloped into the Jedi and Sith ideologies. You can interpret them and their beliefs in a myriad of ways.
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  22. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 30, 2012
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    The Jedi seem to embrace change while the Sith seem to fear change.
    How exaxtly? I've yet to notice anything that suggests that.
  23. Kato Sai Jedi Knight

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    I think the Ying and Yang comes from Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith. When you listen to that he "wants peace," and the whole point of view argument. It sows seeds of doubt into a viewer who thought it was absolutism: Good vs Evil. The epic battle of good vs evil is there, but now you can take the point of view stance and argue that from evil's point of view, it is good.
  24. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 30, 2012
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    Just because we're told that a villain doesn't see himself as a villain doesn't mean that we're supposed to see the villain's point of view as valid. Rather, they're explaining the villain's motives and rationalizations for their actions.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Jedi Grand Master

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