Saga Star Wars Philosophy: Jedi and Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Twi'lekPrince, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. bstnsx704 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3

    I most definitely disagree with the assessment that the Sith Order goes hand in hand with chaos. Look at all six films; from the Sith's return and Palpatine's manipulation of the government and Anakin in the prequels to his rule over the galaxy via the Empire in the originals, everything that took place in favor of the Sith was very precise and according to a specific plan.
  2. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    In case you're wondering, this right here is why I'm done with you.

    EDIT: This has the potential to be a very productive discussion, and it would be unfortunate if the thread got locked because of the obstinacy of a few participants.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Jun 7, 2013
  3. only one kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    You argued against what I saw in the films based upon it being "fantasy" and "revisionist". You argued it fanon on that basis. Please address the question in terms of what you actually argued.

    Why try and invent what I would argue, when we have already discussed this point? I argued that the "clear" implications of the "elite bloodlines" are back-projected onto the OT from the PT. In fact it would be odd for me to argue the omission of this aspect of the story given that I was pretty clear about having taken exactly that from the movies. I don't think it was omitted.

    I have, in our previous discussion of that topic. Rather than letting you side-track the point here I will ask a simple question. If I took it from the movies, and then it is confirmed that Lucas intended it so, why should I have to justify to you why I saw what the author had in mind? Are you questioning the validity of authorial intent, or aren't you?

    And...given that we now know the intent (which we didn't before), on what basis were you making assertions about it which were incorrect? Is it possible that what you see as the story of Star wars is as much about your imagination as other's versions are of theirs?

    What part id Laurent Bouzereau have in making the Star wars films? These are his interpretations of the storylining. the big clue is where he says; "Lucas felt that...". You are arguing authorial intent on the basis of the recounting of discussions by an individual not part of the process.

    Yoda talks of the Force. A singular entity. A definite article. If the writers wished tohighlight this important aspect of the Force why did they not have him say that Luke should use the 'good side of the Force'? Why did they not mention it in any of the following four movies?

    And you use that word again. The only thing I have ever asked of you is to stop arguing as if you are the arbiter of Lucas' intention and to argue on the basis that your interpretation of this fictional work lies as much in your imagination as other's interpretations lies in theirs. Throwing terms like "revisionist", "fantasy" and "fanon" around are totally unnecessary.
  4. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah...this is what I'm talking about. Disputing the validity of the offically-authorized in-depth discussion of the screenplay.

    Let it go.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Jun 7, 2013
  5. only one kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    My point is that somebody arguing what they see in the movies is one thing. Debates don't usually get that heated while discussing differing interpretations. If somebody, on the other hand, argues that their interpretation is actually 'truer', and fails to accept, even, that it is an interpretation then that... can be problematic.

    Is there anything wrong with what I have said here?
  6. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    You didn't answer any of the questions. You just seem upset that I've presented instances from the saga that disprove your theory. To address them would be productive.
  7. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Your right. The Sith of the films aren't very chaotic but precise and methodical. Just evil then;)
  8. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    One would think that Disputing the validity of the officially-authorized in-depth discussion of the screenplay is pretty clear. Likewise, @The Supreme Chancellor, quotes have been provided directly from the movies to dispute your assertion that "sides of the Force" is nonsensical. For example:
    ANH: Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force
    ESB: Beware anger fear, and aggression. The dark side of the Force are they.
    RotJ: I can turn him back to the good side.

    Continuing to debate the validity of the script and the annotated screenplays suggests that both of you are baiting and trolling. You've been warned to stop. If you disagree, there are several other places to make your disagreement known. If you would like guidance on where, I or another mod would be happy to provide it. However, this thread is no longer one of those places. Continuing to do so here will provide you the opportunity to discuss the matter from the Unban Request Forums ;)
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Jun 7, 2013
  9. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Sorry for disagreeing with your opinion @Jedi Merkurian. What are we allowed to discuss in this thread?
    only one kenobi likes this.
  10. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Btw the Empire was bad and the Rebels were good. It is very possible that's what Luke was referring to. I never said "sides of the Force is nonsensical", I said it is nonsensical to split it into the dark side and the "good side". I never denied the existence of the dark side. But there is the dark side of the Force, and then there is the Force. In the films at least that is confirmed.
    kainee likes this.
  11. only one kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    I don't take umbrage with the script. If you interpret it differently than I do does our disagreement put me in danger of a ban? How odd on a discussion board.

    As for the validity of the annotated screenplay? I don't know what you mean. Have I disputed its existence? Am I not allowed to question whether an individual's take on the discussions, an individual who was not a part of the process of making the films, might not necessarily reflect the discussion itself in the way that - for example - the direct words of Lucas and others involved might?

    And to the main thrust of what I was suggesting. It might appear - from your response here - that you advocate the discussion format 'my position is correct, yours is wrong'.

    If that is the case then.... ban away, I'm not interested in that sort of 'discussion' anyway.
  12. Darth Nerdling Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    I've been reading through this, and I think this is an interesting discussion, though I wish everyone didn't have to be so aggressive and that everyone remained respectful. I'm going to wade into this discussion, so please don't tear me another a-hole just because you disagree with me.

    First, I would say that the Force is somewhat of a mystery, and I'm pretty sure that the films supports this idea. Since it is mystery, no one in the films, even Yoda, can be taken as having perfect knowledge of it, though certainly some know more about it than others.

    So, when people say, "May the Force be with you" that doesn't prove that the Force is only the good side or light side, and that the dark side is an aberration. The people saying that may not have full knowledge of what the Force is. The Sith are thought to have been extinct for a millenia. So, people may falsely assume that the Force is equal to the light side because the Sith apparently died off, and then when things get all tyranical when the Sith take over, people who don't like that would again think that the dark side is an aberration.

    To me, it seems very clear from the context that Yoda is talking about the Force and not moral behavior when he is speaking with Luke. I'm not sure, though, that this proves that the dark side is an integral part of the Force and that the dark side and light side must exist side-by-side. Of course, it can be taken this way. Yoda could be saying: "The dark side has properties. It is seductive, you embrace it when you are angry not when your mind is at peace." Those could be properties of the dark side, and this probably the most obvious interpretation. Yoda, however, could be saying: "If you are not trained properly in how to use the Force, then human nature might cause you to misuse the Force and be seduced by the power it can give you." So, in this sense, the dark side is seductive if you are not properly trained to handle the Force. If you take this 2nd interpretation, the Force might not be a duality (light side vs. dark side), and the Force could be equivalent with the light side, and the dark side is a perversion of the Force.

    I've looked at tons of GL's quotes about the balance of the Force, and the light side and the dark side. At times he seems to say different things. In this quote about AOTC, "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance," GL seems to be saying that the presence of the Sith are pushing the Force out of balance, which suggests that universe without the dark side is balanced. At this point the Jedi out-number the Sith thousands to one, so at this point, it seems that if anything the light side is too strong and pushing things out of balance, but GL says just the opposite and says the Sith are pushing things out of balance. However, in this quote by GL, "The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing," GL seems to be saying that the Force has a dual nature. Then we have his quotes about the Chosen One, where he says: "Anakin is the Chosen One, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor" and he says "How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force." If there are no more Sith, then how are things out of balance if the dark side keeps the light side in balance? Destroyng the Sith should unbalance the Force more if that's what that means, but clearly GL means that destroying the Sith brings balance, so that would indicate that the Force does not have a dual nature. Then in this quote, GL seems to make a muddle of the whole thing and sort of seems to be saying both sides at once: "In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In “The Phantom Menace” one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand, a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces

    (BTW balancing the Force by destroying the Sith can make sense in this context if you imagine the Force as a flat surface of goodness and with the weight of the dark side on one side making that surface unlevel. Only when you imagine balance as two equal and opposing Forces does this interpretation of the balancing the Force sound weird.)

    What GL really means is still sort of a mystery to me. He is not a particularly articulate guy, so maybe that's all this amounts to. Of course, GL may have been working through these ideas himself. The reason I say this is because there is the concept of the Will of the Force, and since presumably the Chosen prophecy is fulfilling the will of the Force, and that the fulfillment of that prophecy involves killing all the Jedi including children and a 23 year tyrannical rule, then that would mean that the Force wills some pretty awful things. So, GL's problem may go right back to Christian problem of why is there evil on a planet created by a benevolent God. The reason GL gives contradictory answers is that this is a really hard question to answer. Why would God or the Force want to will evil?

    I think the different characters in the films interpret the concept of the Will of the Force in different ways. In the films, the Jedi often talk about the Will of the Force, and by the way they talk about it, it seems clear that they don't think the Force is willing evil things, and it seems that the dark side generally leads to human suffering. Outside of the films, the Sith also believe in an equivalent concept of the Will of the Force, and it's pretty clear they have a diffferent idea what the Force is willing.

    I'll go slightly EU here with my next point, but b/c it has a lot to do with the Chosen One prophecy I hope this one EU mention doesn't get the thread banished to the literature forum! Palpatine in the ROTS says that the Sith have powers that some consider unnatural -- in this case, the ability to cheat death. Well, it seems that the Force itself agrees with Palpatine and also thinks that the Sith do unnatural things. The Darth Plagueis novel establishes pretty clearly that Anakin is a creation of the Force to counter what Plaguies and Palpatine are doing. It's not completely clear what it's countering--their increasing power or their meditating together bend the Force to follow their own will or Palgueis's grand experiment to cheat death, which what wookieepedia cites http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Experiment. Whatever it was, it's clear the Force didn't like it, and to counteract their innappropriate conduct, the Force created the Chosen One (a guy who's supposed to the Sith), so the Force clearly really didn't like what they were up to. To me, this seems to show that the dark side behavior can push things too far and at least these circumstances, the dark side becomes an abberation of the Force.

    Also, both the Sith and the Jedi seem to recognize that there is a Will of the Force. However, only dark siders try to impose their will upon the Force, so in this way, the Force may "see" those who use the dark side in this way as not acting with Force but directly against the Force. The idea behind a dual nature Force is that the dark side is also acting in accordance with the Force, and in these instances, it seems the dark side is not since trying to control the Force is the exact opposite of with the Will of the Force. Now, one might say that it is how the Sith or dark Jedi act that is not in accordance with the Force, not the dark side itself, but the Jedi are so closely aligned with the light and the Sith/dark Jedi with the dark side that distinguishing the Jedi from the light side and the Sith from what the dark side really is is almost impossible.
    kainee likes this.
  13. Darth Nerdling Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    One other thing that I forgot to mention (and couldn't add since for some reason it wouldn't let me edit my post).

    I think this idea of the Force creating Anakin to counteract the imbalance created by Plagueis/Palpatine also explains what the Chosen One actually achieved. The Sith created an imbalance, and Anakin ultimately corrected that imbalance. So, the Chosen One was responding to a specific imbalance created by a specific set of Sith. The Chosen One did not forever destroy evil or the Dark Side or even perhaps the Sith. He got rid of the specific lineage of Sith that created the imbalance. However, I also don't think that the existence of a possible dual nature of the Force means that dark side-users must arise in the future. 1st, it's questionable from the films and GL that the balancing the Force means that equal parts dark and light. In fact, it could mean no dark at all from some legit interpretations. 2nd, even if the Force is a simple duality, the Star Wars universe could exist according Manichean principles, which is actually a common concept even though not many people have heard of the term. Followers of Manicheism believe that there were 2 gods -- an evil god and a good god who are waging a war over the souls of humans. Neither god is all-powerful, and what determines which god wins is whoever wins the struggle on earth. If evil wins, then the evil god is more powerful, and if good wins, the good god is. The same could be true with the Force. Consequently, whichever side ultimately wins the conflict -- Sith, Jedi, some other -- would determine the ulimate nature of the Force. Now I'm not saying that Anakin's victory was that ultimate victory and the light side has won forever. I'm just saying it's possible. And since there are sequels coming and more $$$ to be made, I'd wager pretty strongly that Anakin's fulfillment of the Chosen One prophecy isn't the ultimate destruction of the dark side.
    kainee likes this.
  14. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you. And thank you for your own level-headed input into the topic at hand.

    This thread has degenerated to the point of incoherence, thanks to several users arguing relentlessly with each other over their own approaches to the debate and behaviour, rather than the debate itself.

    Could everyone please get back on topic and cease attacking the posters, rather than the posts.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't recall that. So I'm asking again: what part of the OT presents the concept that everyone can use the Force?

    No, it does not. The Sith and the dark side are two different things.

    It's the balance of the Force itself, not a balance of the users of the Force.

    It is true that in the EU continuity certain darksiders developed the ability to directly shift the balance of the Force. But that does not mean that the dark side creates imbalance by simply existing ( or even that an average Sith does ). It is worthy of note that in the same EU continuity various sources, including the one you cited, have pointed out that the balance is between the light and dark sides; if that is assumed to be the case we can see that equating the very existence of the dark side with imbalance does not work. However, it is fair to equate imbalance with the growth of the dark side out of bounds.

    ^ This doesn't make sense to me at all. The quote about Anakin merely reiterates that Anakin destroys the Sith and brings balance to the Force; we already knew that. ( It also, in context, has something to say about the question of Anakin's origins, but that's a separate issue. ) Anakin bringing balance to the Force and the Force having a dual nature are not in any way mutually exclusive propositions; in fact, assuming that the balance is between the light and dark sides, the whole idea of the balance of the Force is predicated on the concept that the Force has a dual nature. As to the question "If there are no more Sith, then how are things out of balance if the dark side keeps the light side in balance": the point is that after the Sith are destroyed things are not out of balance. The Sith are not the dark side, and the balance of the Force is a condition of the Force itself rather than a Force-user head count, so the existence of the Sith is not required for balance.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jun 8, 2013
  16. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Jedi care about others and not themselves, Sith care about themselves and not others.
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Jedi see The Force as an end in itself- Sith see it as a means to an end.
  18. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    If I had to guess, I'd say that this kind of interp is an "everything not forbidden is allowed" type of interp. I don't recall anything in ANH or ESB that suggests any specific genetic or bloodline effect on Force ability. There seems to be a big focus on 'believing in yourself,' that kind of thing. ROTJ does have the "it runs strong in my family" aspect, but we've talked about that one before (and for me, a 'talent'-type explanation, combination of nature and nurture works). The mixture of 'power of positive thinking' rhetoric and the lack of specific mention of how genetic ability is the only relevant factor easily leaves room for an 'everyone could in principle learn some kind of Force usage' view. And as we've seen from Lucas quotes, it appears that was the intent, at least at that time. Who knows what he intends now.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    TCW: Ambush, Season 1: Yoda: "Clones you may be, but the Force resides in all creatures. Use it you can, to quieten your mind."
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  20. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Though belief may be a prerequisite, that does not necessarily make it the only prerequisite. Arguably the unusual importance placed on Luke, and by extension Leia, as a "last hope" implies that it is not.

    There's also the "Jedi Flow" exercise taught by Fisto to some clones in The Cestus Deception, so we've seen another such example of a low-level Force application. But the real question is: could the clones ever use the Force at Jedi level?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jun 8, 2013
  21. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Indeed. A quote from the RotS novelization "The Jedi use understanding to gain power. The Sith use power to gain understanding."
    darklordoftech likes this.
  22. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I loved that part.
    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn likes this.
  23. only one kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4

    Exactly. Luke's training was based around concentration, clearing the mind of learned concepts, belief. Luke had to work to be able to use the Force. There was nothing to suggest some special-ness about Luke up until ROTJ, as you say, and that simply came off, to me, as simply being a case that his family seemed to have a particular affinity for its use - in the same way that sporting, intellectual and other talents can be seen to continue in certain family lines - a combination of nature and nurture as you put it here.

    The PT back-projects the 'midiclorian is king' aspect onto the OT. IN the PT we see that Anakin has a high midiclorian count and...he appears to naturally use the Force. Throughout the PT there appears to be no struggle in terms of Jedi learning to use the Force.

    I don't know what you are trying to say here. You may have understood that implication but it wasn't intended, surely?We have Lucas' own words on the matter; Anybody can use the Force.
  24. only one kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    In terms of the movies the only dark side users are the Sith; the darkside is intrinsically linked with the Sith. Anakin's fall to the darkside is represented by his pledging himself to Sidious's Sith teachings. In what way should we understand from the movies that the Sith and the darkside are two different things?


    It makes perfect sense when one takes into account what Lucas has also said about this. He also said that when he destroys the Sith and brings balance to the Force he destroys evil in the universe. Lucas obviously meant something by that, so what could it be? You have argued that the darkside is the 'bad side'; now, in what way is the 'bad side' to be seen as differentiated from evil? Especially when we see that the Sith are evil.

    You seem to be intent on separating all the arguments, where what Darth Ladnar did was to put those arguments together. They come as a whole, so that if we know that the Force is going out of balance as evil takes over (which links with Lucas's statement of evil being destroyed) and this coincides with the rise of the power of the Sith then we can see that understanding the imbalance of the Force as being related to the Sith is perfectly valid. That this evil is destroyed and balance restored on the destruction of the Sith ties in perfectly viably and logically with that.
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    The cave in Empire Strikes Back- "strong with the dark side" and "a domain of evil" - yet it is neither The Master nor The Apprentice.